Cookie-pocalypse & Fundraising in 2023 | Agility Lab Consulting

Elyse Wallnutt, Founder & Principal at Agility Lab Consulting shares how nonprofit fundraising professionals need to adapt to the removal of 3rd party cookies, dealing with evolving donor privacy laws

 

Resources on GDPR, SHEILD, and CCPA for nonprofits.

 

 

Rough Transcript

[00:00:00] audio1299811408: Today on the Whole Whale podcast, we have somebody who was referred to Whole Whale by none other than a, a frequent guest and teacher on whole whale, uh, Josh from Round Table. And we, uh, we tend to pay attention when he says this person knows what they are doing, knows what they're doing with regard to data privacy and fundraising.

[00:00:48] So I was, I. To Elise, the founder and principal at Agility Lab Consulting, uh, agility Lab Consulting. And that's, uh, I believe Agility Lab Consulting. Uh, agility lab.io. Agility lab.io is their website. And we're excited because Agility Lab has just founded and starting their work. And I will say Elise comes with an incredible background, previously senior director marketing advertising at World Food Program.

[00:01:17] Yeah, you might have heard. In the us I also spent time director and strategy at the Center for American Progress. Uh, spent time at Media cause for a year and of course, uh, a little organization called The Nature Conservancy as a senior Associate director, uh, digital acquisition. So safe to say, you know, your stuff.

[00:01:37] I'm excited. I'm excited to learn from you. Thank you for coming on. Anything I, I missed, Elise? No, thanks George. It's, it's great to be here. Thank you for having me. Yeah, well, you caught my eye immediately because you started speaking my language before we turned on record by talking about the sort of like cookie apocalypse.

[00:01:58] The cookie apocalypse. So I don't know if that's the right place to start, but things are gonna get weird in 2023 for fundraisers. Why? Yeah, so you're probably all aware as consumers about how much more aware we've become about how our data is being used. I think that that's been a much more popular topic of conversation in the last couple of years, and audience demand for privacy has really picked up.

[00:02:28] We saw the EU adopt privacy laws with GDPR in 2016, which really set the standard and us. Uh, legislators have taken note as well. So there are five states in the US implementing privacy laws this year. And with that, uh, big tech is really paying attention to how they need to protect their reputations, um, and stay in compliance.

[00:02:53] So they are eliminating what's called third party cookies, and that's a, it's a little piece of code. , that is what allows marketers to stand up ads that, uh, essentially follow you around the internet. So those, you know, that pair of pants or shoes that you can't stop seeing, it's, it's that pixel or that, that third party cookie that allows for that.

[00:03:15] So, um, the reason it's. It's troublesome is most people consider it not consented data use. So what we're moving toward with the elimination of third party cookies is marketers are only gonna be able to use. Consented information. So the information that you provide to them. So we're looking at things like what you provide in a form, when you donate, what you provide, when you fill out that petition, um, and, and things of that nature.

[00:03:46] So that's really gonna require us to be a lot more thoughtful about our targeting strategies. You caught my attention here with saying that there are five states. I was only aware of the New York Shield and C C P A in California, but it's feels like, can I just summarize saying like where one goes all must follow it.

[00:04:06] It's essentially like I love how am American states are like so futile when it comes to internet laws and even like registration. So I. nonprofits have to register in each state for fundraising, even though you have one donation form on your site, is this is where data privacy, third party cookies are going?

[00:04:29] Like how do you advise, because obviously you're offering like consulting advice on how to approach this. How do you advise folks of being like, oh no, no, you gotta do this here, here, here, here. What is the approach? So the good thing about the, uh, five states that are implementing this right now is that the laws are, are pretty similar.

[00:04:46] Um, what it allows for is audience members to request that their information, um, can be deleted from your file essentially, so they can. Call you up and say, Hey, I wanna know everything you have on record about me. I want to view that information, and if I want you to get rid of it, you have to. So most of the states are, are pretty aligned on where they're falling with that.

[00:05:10] And to your point, George, I think most of the states are probably gonna have to. Fall online eventually based on, uh, demand from constituents, that's not going to stop. And there's actually, um, a bipartisan supported federal bill that's pending. Um, it's gotten a little bit stalled up, but may make progress in 2023.

[00:05:33] And if that comes to fruition, that will create that federally supported framework. So my advice for nonprofits is to start treating this like it. Already a reality and to start getting prepared for something you can put in place operationally across the board. There's not really a point in standing up, you know, a set of operations for Colorado versus California, um, because they're, they're pretty similar.

[00:06:00] So GDPR is the most aggressive and luckily we already know what that looks like, uh, from the eu. And if you use that as a framework, you're pretty much guaranteed to be in compliance with what the states stand up. and just to play it out more practically, let's say you get, cuz it's a, a rite of, rite of removal, I think for your data.

[00:06:23] Mm-hmm. . What if that's not followed in, what is it, 30 days or 90 days? What are the kind of penalties you're seeing for this? Uh, so what we just saw actually, um, Facebook got hit with a really large fine by the EU for not following privacy compliance. Um, so when you're out of compliance, you can get hit with fines.

[00:06:44] Um, you, you will have more of that, uh, legal eye on you and it really could impact you in. In terms of audience trust more broadly. Um, so that's where I've been encouraging people to think of this as more of an opportunity rather than a slap on the hand. Um, when we're showing audiences that we care about respecting their rights and how their data is used, you can really build your brand and make sure that you are front and center of building that trust conversation.

[00:07:16] And just to be clear, let's say there's a, a privacy@myorganization.org. Mm-hmm. , I George email them saying, you know, I'm sort of invoking my right for removal. Right. To be forgotten. Yep. Uh, please present and remove any and all data. This is an official notice, let's say that goes to that email and the organization's like, this is the first time we've ever seen it.

[00:07:40] Like, what does that actually. So it means that you're gonna have to go through your C R m present everything that you know about, but you also need to have a handle on how you've been releasing data to third parties. So you know when you're uploading a person's. Email address into Facebook so that you can serve ads to them.

[00:07:59] You're also releasing some of that data to Facebook. So there are things that you can implement, like Facebook's conversion API that allow you to self-select some of those fields and get your third party options in, uh, better compliance being more risk averse there. But really it involves you being able to tell people what you have on them.

[00:08:23] Um, You know, your own spare, but also how you've been using their, their data externally. So the idea is that you don't want it to take you three weeks to execute one of these requests. You wanna be able to make sure that your staff knows how to, uh, turn this over and make sure that it is, you know, scalable and your approach is able to be right sized.

[00:08:48] Um, and also that your privacy policy reflect. What people can expect. So if you have 45 days to, to do this, is it gonna take you all 45 or can people expect to see something in 10? So you really need to be able to set the tone for, um, what audiences should get from you. And when

[00:09:08] I see a lot of headaches in the future here, I mean clearly, unfortunately, my mind goes toward. More of a predatory attack potentially, um, where you could sort of deluge an organization with, um, hundreds of these requests, um, and really bog down a technical team. So certainly I think having a plan in place for how do you do this in, in batch and do it efficiently, uh, especially if you are on the front lines of organizations that dance on contentious issues, we'll say.

[00:09:39] Is that a, is that a fair. Yeah, we're actually seeing whole companies, uh, being stood up just to provide for that. Um, you know, it's flooding businesses with requests from consumers, you know, as the consumer you can hire them to go and do this for you and they'll hit everything you know, you've ever email subscribed to.

[00:10:01] So that is where you need to be able to make sure you have your operational process in line and, you know, um, what. fair game to be released and, and what's not, um, and, and how you're gonna treat that. Yeah. Sounds like, um, a lot of work. I I, I don't wanna spend too much more time here unless there's something I'm maybe missing on the, the right to be forgotten and those policies coming up.

[00:10:26] I think really the most important thing, well, not the most important thing, but another important thing for, uh, marketing teams to also consider here is that, Data minimization is going to be your legal team's recommended approach. So it's really important for you to get a good handle on what the states consider, uh, personal information, what those fields look like, and also for you to know the business reason that you're ingesting certain data fields and what you want your retention period to be, and what fields you're willing to.

[00:11:02] You know, forego. So if you know that you're going to lose some of that third party tracking, what do you need to know on a first party level in terms of, you know, person's age and their interest categories and, and all the other things that make us understand what makes a person tick? You need to have a good handle on that so that you can sit at the table with the legal team and, uh, engage with them productively on what can stay and what can.

[00:11:28] I mean, I don't even know how you would go about finding that individual's third party cookie that you're using to track them around the internet and delete it. I mean, I think you acknowledge it, but is there a way to like signal out that one, you know, unique identifier inside of the walls of Google and, and others?

[00:11:47] Uh, no, I, well, you, so what most people are approaching this as, and, and again, this needs to come through in the privacy policy, is there are services that will let a person like you or me, George. Gotcha. Yeah. Go wipe my, yeah. Yeah. Um, so. An organization can say, Hey, we're gonna recognize signals from those types of services or not.

[00:12:10] Uh, and that's what you need to make clear in your privacy policy cause you're not technically, legally obligated to do that yet. But in the future, when third party cookies are wiped, that's gonna go away for all of us. It's not gonna exist as a capability. And when is the, is the deadline for removing third party?

[00:12:28] So they, you won't have to do anything to remove them. Uh, Google's gonna do it for you supposedly. Uh, Firefox already doesn't support third-party cookies. There's several other browsers that don't, um, but Chrome is, owns 64% of the market share when it comes to browsers and they. Google is saying that 2024 is the year they're gonna make good on this promise.

[00:12:54] And it's notable, this timeline has shifted a lot because Google hasn't quite figured out how they're gonna make up the revenue loss on their end, is my guess. Uh, so they are, they keep extending it, but 2024 is, is what they say. Uh, the deadline. And we've already seen, you know, thank you for explaining a bit about cookies and kind of how they're used and the, the apple fallout, I feel like is still coming.

[00:13:19] So maybe you can talk a bit about how fundraisers are needing to adapt to the reduction in tracking ability in email and maybe marketing with regard to Facebook Advertis. . Yeah. So the question I get asked, um, often is, why is Facebook acquisition struggling and what are we gonna do to replace it? And I think what people are missing is that Facebook is just the first, because they were hit so hard with apple's changes when Apple forced web developers to say that, um, they had to ask users for permission to track them.

[00:13:57] N 94% of those users said, no, I don't wanna be tracked. Facebook lot lost a lot of capabilities to target people outright and also to create lookalike models based on what they knew about people's behaviors. So what you're saying from Facebook is just representative of the struggle you're going to also have on Google via paid search ads and the like when third party cookies are wiped out.

[00:14:23] So it's really the time to take stock. Understanding what's working on your file, doing some contextual audits to get a sense of. What you know about your audiences and what you'd want to know so that you can collect those inputs. And also so that you can do more one-to-one media buying. If it came to it.

[00:14:45] Um, you might wanna understand, hey, we, we stood up ads on this site and they worked, but not this site. So we're gonna play more toward that type of content category. And we're also going to take that one step further and build our, our content strategy so that it focuses more on that type of topic. Uh, so you might think about those pieces now while you still have the capability to see into, uh, your Google results.

[00:15:14] So the other thing that is really important to understand about third party cookie elimination is that there will be analytics implications. GA four coming into play. Um, and with third party cookies wiping out, you know, Facebook and other advertising capabilities to see a pixel fire, you're gonna have to feed that information more manually.

[00:15:39] And you're also going to need to adjust your attribution model potentially to, uh, make changes so that you understand the state of play and how things are converting or.

[00:15:52] I think the way I'm kind of trying to position this is less moving forward about who people are with regard to their cookie footprint. Mm-hmm. and more about what they do. This is gonna be a behavior first environment. And you know, you mentioned GA four. I have the feeling. based on numbers, conversations, and what I'm seeing, I have the feeling a lot of folks are not ready for the hard transfer from Universal Analytics.

[00:16:24] The number one used web tracking analytic on the interwebs. Mm-hmm. stopping in July, like done, done like dinner, gone not until November, but until gone. Won't work and then suddenly everyone's gonna have to use GA four, which is very clearly Google's response to cookie apocalypse gdpr rising concerns of the way the fundamentals of universal analytics work don't work in this new environment, which is why this is happening.

[00:16:54] Yeah. Uh, what is your take? How are you positioning this transfer and thinking? So in terms of my advice for people, I would. Operating like it's happening tomorrow and taking stock of what you've learned and the benefits of having all these tracking capabilities in place now, uh, by creating and documenting all of those insights so that you can say, , Hey, you know, right now I'm on this really sophisticated attribution model that lets me see all of the touchpoints that led up to a conversion.

[00:17:32] But if those go away tomorrow, and if I never had them at my discretion, how would I make different decisions? So if I am only able to see that a person gave on this donation form and I know nothing else about their path, how, how would I apply some of the learning? From the past to, to get to that. So, um, I would look at what you've learned about, you know, when I was at the Nature Conservancy, we were finding that it took an average of 16 touchpoints for a per person to decide to give.

[00:18:02] And those were the ones that we could track. So knowing that, how many emails do you need to get in front of them? How many, you know, direct mail placements do you need to, to hit them with? What are the more creative outlets that you. Uh, apply with influencer marketing and, um, more of that thought leadership lens that parn back to, you know, a decade ago before we had all these, uh, capabilities at our hands and had to operate, you know, more like creative marketers, , and getting to that touchpoint model.

[00:18:34] And thank you for, for sharing that, having to be top of mind for your audience. Losing. , the tool of remarketing hurts. Mm-hmm. , I don't know. I like, I think that's the technical word hurts. . What? Help is my question. Yeah. So I, that's where I think that piece of the contextual auditing is gonna be really important.

[00:18:59] So that, you know, I think the word persona is overused and it means so many different things, but really getting that fine-tuned understanding of what makes people tick. Um, and like you said, based on their behaviors, what they're doing. So qualitative, Data is one thing. You can ask people in a survey how they feel, what they think, but we've seen the downfall of qualitative data, uh, with, you know, election polls and, and whatever else.

[00:19:29] So we know that we have to take that with a grain of salt. So understanding quantitative data and, and what's working, I think, will help you make those decisions about the content that you're standing up. Your forward path to creating, uh, what's called a first party data acquisition strategy, um, and making sure that you're creating content that's going to give people a reason to give you their email address so that you can do that more manual retargeting with, with emails and, and other services.

[00:19:58] So you mentioned email. You know, when Apple flipped the, the switch there, we started to see some wonky things in our mm-hmm. open rates, confusing numbers of being like, we're doing great, but are we, can you explain a little bit more? Because so much of I'll, I'll say, , the digital fundraising tactics that whole whale pushes forward, rely on those email data.

[00:20:23] Can you explain what's going on, why we may not be able to trust our open rates and what we can do as, uh, you know, moving forward in this environment? Yeah. So that goes back to the same iOS update, um, that impacted. Mobile app developers on the advertising side, and it'll also hit email. So the metric to watch now is, is click data.

[00:20:47] That is what allows you to understand if a person actually engaged or not. And everything before that is a bit amiss because of the tracking capabilities that are missing now. So the, the metric you wanna watch, Um, engagement, and that is because you know that that information is visible on your side and it's, you know, considered your data.

[00:21:11] So, Paying attention to all of those content insights is what I would focus on right now. And, you know, there's never been a more important time to make sure you have really good, um, reasons for a person to click through and engage so that you can factor in at that email engagement rate. It's so difficult because sometimes the purpose of an email is to deliver that experience.

[00:21:41] in that platform, in that medium and not click through. Mm-hmm. not lose that extra step. When you do that though, you're getting less data. So, you know, we know that that strategy has worked in the past, but it's tough to also say like, oh, we're not saying only send like two words and be like, click to see the rest.

[00:22:00] Right. We're holding your content hostage until you give us data in the form of clicks. Uh, . I mean, I don't know. Are you recommending that? Is that the trade off or are you just like, no, what you're not getting. Yeah, I think there's, so one of the things that I've been playing with in my own email strategy is encouraging people to reply to an email or do something that's other engagement, um, and reply to say, Hey, this is why I signed up for your email list, whatever, whatever type of content that you think, um, might be engaging and might give you some information that you can scale.

[00:22:34] That's another mechanism for people to. Really show interest and, and give you data that is consented that you might be able to gain some, some insights from. Um, but yeah, otherwise, I, I would not recommend sending a two word email that just says click. But I would say that you should start, um, optimizing.

[00:22:54] Content in the way that we used to optimize for subject lines to get that open. You know, you still need a good, you still need a reason for people to open, but that's not your primary focus. Your primary focus and your metric basis should be on, um, what you're doing to, to get the engagement in those insights.

[00:23:12] And so you mentioned that in 2024, Google Chrome is gonna be making this change. Does this also extend to Android and Gmail? in terms of that tracking. Will open rates put another way, be completely null and void as we get into 2024 of that change? Or do not? I under do, am I misunderstanding this? Uh, so Chrome.

[00:23:37] So safari has already been hit by this with Apple. Um, so anything that's happening on your iPhone right now is, is not really trackable in terms of third party cookies. Um, in the Android land, I, what is the primary browser for Androids, it's chrome. Yeah. Yeah. So, so Chrome, yeah, everything will stop being supported there.

[00:24:04] So yeah, unless you're using some device that none of us are aware of at this moment, , it's, it's really going to be hurting, I guess if you are opting into some browser that's, that's very small and market share. Um, effectively this is really just gonna need to be the wholesale change, so. I think this all comes back to the same thing, which is that this is just kind of the way of the world now where audiences, they're not gonna get less aware of how their, their data is being used.

[00:24:36] So you should probably adjust for that and, um, take the opportunities that you have to be a leader in the space and. You know, let people know how their data is being used. Be upfront about what you'll do to, to respect their space and their privacy, and make proactive changes so that you're not caught off guard.

[00:24:56] We saw a really good example of this actually. Um, the New York Times in 2020 became the first major publisher who went to a first-party data only model. So they completely stopped using third-party supported, um, information. And the way that they were able to scale that is they came up with a really creative content tagging strategy where, you know, they're tagging their content based on a range of different things, whether.

[00:25:23] You know, emotion evoked author, topic, et cetera. But with those insights, when an advertiser comes to them and says, Hey, I wanna place an ad on content that has this type of feel, the New York Times can offer that with. Completely consented data because it's based on what people are doing on their site in a logged in state.

[00:25:46] So the New York Times is a great example of a content publisher doing that, and obviously it's not completely replicable for the, those of us who are not, uh, you know, news outlets. But I think that there are things that we can learn from them in terms of giving people a reason to log in. , which is easier said than done, but is a case for brainstorming what some creative product development might look like, and also thinking about the context of the content that you're putting out and how you might, uh, do it differently in terms of both tagging and the, the actual content within, so that you are setting yourself up to, to get good data insights from it and, uh, to make sure that you are setting your data or setting your content up in a way that.

[00:26:32] Clear funnel toward monetization. It's a move kind of back toward the old school intent driven ads. Mm-hmm. , what is the, uh, user intent, and it's more clear on Google's search than probably any other platform at this point. If I'm searching for ways to support the environment, it's pretty clear. I care about a couple things.

[00:26:55] I have a desire to take action, and that action is revolving around learning more about the. , guess what? That might be a good moment to introduce yourself as the nature conservancy. Yeah, and what's interesting is that, uh, last year was the first year in recent memory that the total combined ads, as I understand the stat, um, being spent total ad spend of Google, Facebook, who used to dominate pretty much the entire market fell, um, fell below 50%, which means there's like a rise of the rest coming.

[00:27:29] and I wonder if you can talk about how we'll have our own data of emails, but then we'll be like shopping around in a much larger marketplace and needing to make a lot more decisions than ever before. Uh, as it relates to data opportunity, however you want to take this, uh, this fly ball. Yeah. Yeah. You, uh, in terms of things like co-op partnerships, I think those are some of the options that are at.

[00:27:58] Discretion. Um, and I think that's where knowing third party data terms is gonna be really important so that you're making really practical decisions to understand how, um, those partnerships are working. You know, I think that there are some organizations that can offer up. Email addresses at scale, and you wanna make sure that they're also GDPR compliant and following cans, spam rules, and doing things in a way that aren't gonna get you into hot water.

[00:28:30] Uh, so that's, I think, point number one is you're going to need to be newly. Aware of and deeply aware of as a marketer, the decisions you're making on that front. Um, and also you're gonna need to consider efficiency. So I think when it comes to the efficiency question, obviously the third party. Data pieces are what allowed us to scale so quickly.

[00:28:58] Um, but I would test a range of different publishers who are not so much reliant on, um, third party cookies and start getting those insights now so that you get a sense of how things are gonna perform and you can scale that later. So there are publishers who are exploring this in a pretty forward thinking way, you know, Spoke with Basis Technologies last week, just as a, as an example, but, um, they're already exploring how they can garner, uh, marketing techniques that put advertising out there in a way that isn't, um, illegal.

[00:29:34] as it will be later. . Yeah. Well, it's gonna get pretty interesting. Any other points you wanna make before we move into our rapid fire about coming data privacy changes? What organizations need to be prepared for? I think really just making sure that, as you know, a marketer or a fundraiser, wherever it is, you sit on that spectrum that you consider.

[00:29:58] The implications in a forward thinking way. Um, and don't think of privacy as something that's just for the IT and legal teams. I think it's going to impact your job in a way that it just didn't previously, and that's gonna be the state of play from here forward. So it would make sure that you understand, you know, what your privacy policy says.

[00:30:18] Make sure it's covering you. Make sure your legal team knows what you're up to so that, um, you are protecting your organization and ultimately your brand, which is your job. So that's the big piece that I would hammer home there. That's super helpful. Alright, rapid fire time, roughly 32nd responses. And just to kick it off, what is one tech tool or website that you've started using in the last.

[00:30:44] Uh, so I have been using. Kajabi, that's how I built my site and I really enjoy that. If you are looking to build a website, which is probably a, a small number of people, um, I'm also exploring notion, um, I'm late to the game there, but that is a tool that's. . Um, I need a replacement forever Evernote, because my Evernote syncing has gotten very bad, uh, between my devices.

[00:31:11] So I'm looking for a, a replacement note taking app. Maybe that follows into tech issues you're currently battling with ? Yeah. Yeah. I would say data sync issues between devices has been a big one for me, uh, where I'll write myself a to-do on my phone and it's not showing up on. My desktop app version. So that is a big problem.

[00:31:35] What is coming in the next year that has you the most excited? What's coming? Yeah, what's coming up? Uh, personally, professionally, does it matter? Oh, let's do one, one professional and one personal. Now that you ask, uh, I would say professionally, you know, this is my first year in business by myself, so I am excited to, um, be able to know what to predict for 2024.

[00:32:02] Uh, no. What I can scale and um, how things need to pivot. I think entrepreneurship has always been something I've been very intrigued by and I'm excited to be, you know, taking the plunge personally. Um, I am going to Greece for the first time in March, so that should be a great time. Awesome. Talk about a mistake that you made earlier in your career that shapes the way you do things.

[00:32:28] this is a good question. I think one of the most valuable insights I've learned over the years is when it's important to have at least a verbal conversation, if not an in-person conversation, rather than trying to make it work over email, slack, et cetera. Um, I think sometimes people rely on the efficiency of.

[00:32:52] email and, and written coms. Um, and I know I certainly over relied on that in the past, and sometimes it's really important to just take the time to take somebody to coffee and recognize that that's gonna do more service to what you're trying to get done than hammering home a deadline will.

[00:33:08] Do you believe that nonprofits can successfully go out of business successfully? Go out of business? . Yeah, I do. I think that it is, there are a lot of solvable problems. You know, when I was at World Food Program, we called Hunger, the world's most solvable problem. I think it's a matter of building the operational infrastructure to be able to ingest the money that would allow you to go out of business.

[00:33:37] If you got. A huge donor, are you gonna be able to scale your operation that quickly and think about the components that would need to go into that? So I think, um, nonprofits need to be able to operate in a way that allows them to have those overhead pieces taken care of, and the sound operational infrastructure that allows for that.

[00:34:00] if I were to put you in a hot tub time machine back to the beginning of your nonprofit work, what advice would you give yourself? Hmm. Um. I would say to be unafraid, to, to speak. I had a mentor early in my career who made clear that if you were invited to a meeting, it was for a reason and your voice needed to be heard.

[00:34:26] And I think especially as, uh, a female in this industry, you can, can take a step back from that at the beginning of your career. You, there's some, I think, imposter syndrome among all of us, but especially among young women. So I would. Speak.

[00:34:41] If I were to give you a magical wand that you could wave and change something in the industry, what would it do? Hmm. I think we'd be a lot further ahead on diversity initiatives and understanding how they come into play in every facet of what we do. I think nonprofits. Just catching up to this conversation.

[00:35:04] And we still think of it as, you know, we need a diverse hiring pool and we don't necessarily understand all of the things that go into building that, that talent pool. So making sure that we have cultures that diverse communities would want to work within and, uh, that, that respect, um, the difference standpoints that we all come from.

[00:35:22] That's what I would change would be further along. What is something that you think you should stop doing? I should stop doing, I should stop drinking more than one cup of coffee a day. , I, uh, I'm playing with my, my workflow for the day and the optimal time to make sure I'm, I, I used to exercise first thing in the morning, and I'm pivoting that more toward, toward the, the mid-afternoon, which I, I guess, are the luxuries of being an entrepreneur.

[00:35:52] But, um, playing with the caffeine intake, um, has not been great. So produced. How did you get started in the social impact sector? So I grew up in a very conservative area of Colorado. Um, Colorado's a very interesting state in terms of politics, but I grew up in the area of Colorado Springs, um, that's very focused on religion, military, et cetera.

[00:36:17] Um, and I was about nine when my Uncle Keith passed away, uh, from AIDS and. at that time, we weren't allowed to talk about why he passed and what happened and, uh, his sexuality and I, as I have gotten older, always think about what that must have felt like for him to not even be able to talk to his family about, um, you know, this terrifying illness that he had and.

[00:36:48] The, where he was in life. So that's, that's been the event in my life that I've always come back to. That drives me to make sure that no one else feels like that or is in that place. What advice would you give college grads looking to enter the social impact sector? You co oh, I guess your college graduated by that point.

[00:37:07] Um, I was gonna go the internship route. I, I think just start. I think there's a lot of trepidation around diving in and, um, finding, you know, the perfect job description to apply for, or the perfect service to offer. And I think just getting out there and seeing, um, Casting a wide net is, is very useful in those beginning stages.

[00:37:34] And also not being afraid to say yes when you get invited to, you know, that networking session or the happy hour, that might seem useless. Just building your army of, of friends and contacts. What advice did your parents give you that you either followed or did not follow?

[00:37:55] Um, my parents gave me lots of advice, advice that I, I did not follow. Um, . One thing that I did follow, my parents, uh, grew up in, um, a very small area of Ohio, former mining town that, um, was not well to do. We did not grow up, um, super well off money wise, and my dad really wanted me to focus on a business degree, uh, because it was practical and I did do that.

[00:38:24] Um, but I will say that I've, I've tried to pivot it in a way that's become my own. Um, and that is, is focused on. Yes, the business side and the practical sides of that, but also the social impact side that is, is my own mark. Well thanks for sharing all of that. How do people find you? How do people help you?

[00:38:44] So my website is agility lab.io. Um, and I have on. That's a, uh, you can contact me for a quick informational consult or I have a couple of, uh, checklists that will help you think through your risk diversification strategy. And if you're interested in pursuing a project together, you can reach out to me one-on-one through the site, um, or join my email list.

[00:39:10] Yeah, I'd say just add, if you're looking for that digital privacy tuneup that doesn't just stop at privacy, but also looks. How your fundraising and comms team are approaching a different landscape. It sounds like you know what you're doing. I enjoyed the conversation and thank you for all that you've shared with our audience.

[00:39:27] Thank you, George.