The One Day At A Time Recovery Podcast
Health & Fitness:Mental Health
Jolene Park - What is Gray Area Drinking & How To End the Back & Forth
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Connect with Jolene Park
Visit Jolene’s Website: https://grayareadrinkers.com/
Follow Jolene on Instagram @jolene_park
Watch Jolene’s TEDx talk: https://www.healthydiscoveries.com/tedx-talk/
The Lightning Round
Book recommendations:
Drinking, A Love Story, by Caroline Knapp
Many Roads, One Journey: Moving Beyond the Twelve Steps, by Charlotte Kasl
Favorite Quote: “This too shall pass”
Regular Self-Care Practice: Grounding - walking barefoot on the beach, breathwork, somatic work, and healthy eating.
Transcript:
Arlina Allen 2:56
Jolene, thank you so much for joining me today.
Jolene Park 3:03
Thanks for having me I'm I'm really looking forward to chatting with you and getting to know you a little bit more in the studio.
Arlina Allen 3:09
Listen, I appreciate somebody who has done their own work and who has a lot of credibility. Can I just say that to you?
Unknown Speaker 3:20
Thank you. I received that and appreciate that and feel the exact same way so I'm with you. Yeah,
Arlina Allen 3:27
we were just okay, I'm not gonna go into a rant, but maybe just a tiny little soapbox. You know, little cautionary tale. There's, there's a while I love how open people are being with their recovery. I just really appreciate people who have done their own work, right? So and you'll hear it I listen, I can sniff it out in two seconds. If I'm talking to someone who has not done their own work. And I've listened, I've listened to your TED Talk, your other interviews, there's lots of really good quality stuff that you've been putting out that I really appreciate. Because you are rooted in logic, which is nice. You got a lot of science going on. I love me some science. So we'll talk about all the stuff all the things, but just for fun. Do you hear my dog barking? Yeah, one second. I'm so sorry.
Unknown Speaker 4:54
Oh, I think you're still muted. Ah, here we go.
Arlina Allen 5:02
Okay, I had to go. Let my I have an English bulldog named named Teddy had to let him out. Did you know that Dr. Andrew Huberman has an English bulldog?
Unknown Speaker 5:11
I mean, his dog is no castellet. Well, long videos watch. Yeah, yeah. Costello was Costello
Arlina Allen 5:18
okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we were totally
Unknown Speaker 5:23
embarrassed that I know that but I might make you vermin fans.
Arlina Allen 5:27
Me, too. Oh my God. He's talking about him all the time. I digress. Sorry about that, I will have to edit that little part out. What I where I thought we would start is just kind of a fun little lightning round. It's a fun little icebreaker. When you first started your journey to do you call it do how do you refer to it your alcohol free journey, your sobriety journey?
Unknown Speaker 5:53
alcohol free is what I use most. But you know, I'll interchange sobriety here and there, but in general, I, you know, I'll the term alcohol free is what I'm most comfortable with.
Arlina Allen 6:05
Okay, cool. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting, you know, over the years, you know, when people were first talking about getting sober, it was all about alcoholism. Right. And you and I know now that the DSM five doesn't even recognize that term anymore. It's alcohol use disorder. So which I appreciate because that sort of speaks to the spectrum. Right? There's an Oh, you're going to talk about this too. I'm not gonna steal your thunder here. But um, but yes, so when you started your alcohol free journey, were there particular books that you found really helpful?
Unknown Speaker 6:42
Oh, what a fun question.
Arlina Allen 6:45
I am obsessive when it comes to books.
Unknown Speaker 6:48
Yeah. Because you know, when I started my journey, and Anna Grace's book was not out. Oh, okay. Unexpected joy of getting sober. You know, all of these these books, the sober diaries by Claire Pouliot. None of those. They all came after I quit drinking. Yeah, me too. So yeah, this is a really fun question. Kind of, you know, pre this big Instagram boom, about talking about alcohol free. I definitely read Carolyn naps book, the drinking love story. Have you? Have you read her memoir?
Arlina Allen 7:20
I haven't. That also came out after I got sober. I heard that people read the books that came out when they got sober, or became alcohol free.
Unknown Speaker 7:31
She wrote her book. I think it was in the 90s and the 90s. Yeah, okay. Yeah, she was an early, early one. And her writing is just exquisite. I mean, it's so visceral and it pulls you out. I mean, it almost it's called drinking a love story. And she really romanticizes the drink and she had an absolute 100% you know, drinking problem, but her writing is just mesmerizing. So I read her memoir a couple times. But you know, who I knew about early on to was Charlotte, I think it's castle, k s L, I never know how to say her last name. And she wrote the book moving beyond the 12 steps, many roads one journey,
Arlina Allen 8:18
I think wow. And
Unknown Speaker 8:21
and so she took a she looks at the physiology, which is you know, is a real core piece of my work and you know, potential things like blood sugar and, and allergies to alcohol and, and she, you know, she knew about that side as a psychologist, but, but were her work really, where she really anchored it was looking at the language of the bill Wilson's 12 steps. And so she wrote the 16 steps and more of a feminine kind of empowered approach, you know, she just turned the language and so I enjoyed her work and kind of her take on things. And I think that you know, her book came out probably in the 90s as well
Arlina Allen 9:03
in the 90s that is so interesting. So I grew up in the church where I was accustomed to reading patriarchal language of the Bible and things like that. And and I was accustomed to reading things and then interpreting it like I didn't realize I was I had like this interpretation filter, so that you know, when I got sober in 94, all there was really was the 12 steps. And I was so desperate to be different and I just happened to know some people who were going and so I just kind of got they call it getting Eskimos in the cold, I guess. Um, and so that that worked for me. But it's so fascinating that there were so many women that are just like, I'm not okay with this, like this whole patriarchal thing and, and so it's so interesting to hear that Charlotte was able to sort of translate To the 16 steps I'm totally gonna have to check that out so that was a book that you read early on as well
Unknown Speaker 10:06
it was because I I appreciated her comprehensive approach which is very much resonated with me about looking at the biochemistry looking at the emotional components and today's you know language around that is the somatic work the polyvagal work which Charlotte wasn't you know that's newer research but she was aware of that of that bigger comprehensive approach around the codependency is another you know term that was more traditional but that emotional sobriety and then the spiritual piece of it too and there's all different you know, currents to ride with that and and she helped me you know, have an appreciation too I've always been very neutral with with 12 steps I've been in and out of meetings you know, throughout the years and I certainly see from a nervous system standpoint the huge benefit of the community so being in a room with other human beings where you can be heard and seen and witnessed and you know, that your story is held and that's very healing to the nervous system. I understand the criticisms and I have you know, I respect you know, it's everybody has their different preference but speaking strictly from a nervous system standpoint community and the predictability the regular meetings the the support that that you know, there's a lot of dynamics in there that are very supportive to the nervous system now we can find them in you know, in churches or spiritual groups or movement groups like yoga communities or more knitting communities it doesn't have to be a recovery based community but in general community that's part of my acronym nourish uniting with others so
Arlina Allen 11:55
I thought we're gonna get to that I wrote
Unknown Speaker 11:58
and power code
Arlina Allen 12:01
is so good it okay so I don't want to jump ahead but I'm just I'm gonna ask you about all that cuz I was listening to and I was like writing this down I was like, Oh my god, how did I not hear about this before? It's so interesting that we can sort of sort of like package or position information in a way that is so consumable and easy to remember your whole nourish, and that a knack? Is it an acronym my does that sound weird? acronym, acronym? Sorry, dear, I laugh at my own jokes. Bear with me. Um, okay, so the books these are, these are really good books. Okay, so drinking a love story, and then moving beyond the 12 steps, which I totally appreciate. Like,
Unknown Speaker 12:45
let me let me throw one other in there that was very emotional. And we can as we get more into kind of the biochemistry of the book, seven weeks to sobriety was also very influential. And I can dig more into that but but the author, she has her PhD in nutrition. And she was inspired to write the book again in the 90s, I believe, is when it came out, because her teenage son, I think it was late teens, early 20s, went into to to traditional treatment, around the you know, mid 90s, and stayed sober, but was miserable. So emotionally, he came out of treatment and was still very depressed and he didn't drink but tragically then took his life because the alcohol had been removed. But the other pieces is like he didn't feel better, even though he was following you know, the program. And so his mother then said, there's something else we're not even talking about the physical side, there's this whole biochemical side and she got very interested in the nutrients and the amino acids and went on for her PhD to really learn that and then opened a treatment center in Minneapolis, called the health Recovery Center wrote a book called seven weeks to sobriety. And so that was an influential part as I was studying and learning functional medicine about that biochemical piece and and Charlotte wrote about that too. She understood some of the biochemical side but she really looked at kind of that psycho emotional spiritual. So those those were influential books to me while I was drinking like the you know, because I'm a I'm a nutritionist I'm a health coach, I have been for 20 years and so that stuff was always interesting to me. And I would read it and kind of chew on it and be like, this is kind of fascinating. It's a little bit off the traditional path. I still drink but it was planting seeds of where ultimately got me to my final stop what I used when I stopped and now what what I use in my work was was those early seeds.
Arlina Allen 14:41
Yeah, so good. I mean, listen, there's a period of time like I lived in this barn, the Self Help section at Barnes and Noble trying to like think my way into right living as they say. And just because I had as I want to ask you about this a little bit later, but once having the information wasn't like applying them formation is kind of my current obsession and so we'll talk about how to apply it and but I think that's really important that we'll we'll talk about that Do you have a sort of go to mantra or quote that you live by
Unknown Speaker 15:17
this too shall pass
Arlina Allen 15:18
whoo that's fine
Unknown Speaker 15:20
yeah or another one is you know all as well which comes from a Christian mystic in England Her name is Julian of Norwich. Yeah, I I like the Christian the feminine Christian mystics I draw a lot of wisdom from and that was that was one of her really well known quotes is well as well
Arlina Allen 15:43
yeah. I love that Oh, you know what I'm what I like is that just popped into my head was in the end everything will be okay. And if it's not okay, it's not the end.
Unknown Speaker 15:54
Yeah. Yeah. I often post that around New Year's, you know, turning up the calendar and kind of New Year's Eve and it feels like the end but it's you know, we're beginning
Arlina Allen 16:10
Yes, every and has a beginning. I love that. Let's see, do you have a regular your own personal self care routine? Like do you like a daily practice a weekly practice,
Unknown Speaker 16:24
I have a whole menu of nourishment that I have a bag of nourishment that goes Borg and self care. I'm admittedly i'm i'm not great about you know, hitting every single day. But I certainly have really favorite practices that and it changes you know, with different seasons, the time of the year as I grow and evolve and what my needs are, sometimes they're more physical, sometimes they're more emotional, sometimes more spiritual. So it shifts. Right now I'm in Charleston, right outside Charleston, South Carolina on purpose to be very close to the beach because walking barefoot on the beach scene at the beach regularly for me is a huge daily practice and regulator. So that's a biggie. Um, I like breathwork. So that's also very regulating and calming to me to do some kind of some. It's a little bit of Wim Hof. But it's not total Wim Hof.
Arlina Allen 17:26
Half every morning like Monday through Friday. We host this little it's like a 25 we do Wim Hof for 10 minutes and then Tara Brock reign meditation for 10 minutes. No chit chat. No messing around, in and out. Love
Unknown Speaker 17:39
Arlina Allen 18:13
I know that. Yeah. Do you know I am just so glad that you highlighted that there are many tools that you don't do them every single day, like super hard, like you're not militant about it, and that there are different things for different seasons. Because often I talk to people, I even the clients that I coach, they're like, Oh, I didn't do this every single day. And it's like, you don't have to do it every day because our needs actually change and fluctuate. And so it's okay to be flexible, right? And just pay attention. Yeah, pay attention to what your needs are that day. And I have a client who called it her smorgasbord of things. But she you know, she did she put a time limit on it. She's like, Okay, I'm not gonna spend more than an hour, right? She's retired, she's like, I'm not gonna spend because then it becomes this other thing you beat yourself up with, like, all different things. So I like I like the flexibility. And I think consistency can be viewed, let's say over a month period of time, right? If you did, if you did something like 20 days out, that's pretty consistent. Right? You don't have to do something every day to be that's extreme thinking of consistent. We're so funny.
Unknown Speaker 19:30
Yeah. And you know, he's a core philosophy of mind for myself and how I work with others, especially with women. I'm very interested in you know, the cycles and the rhythms. So in our own body within this is noticing nature, so noticing the seasons in nature, but we also have that those seasons within our own body. And so it's very linear and masculine, the masculine archetype to kind of a 24 hour cycle where it's like every morning, do a spin class. And there's nothing wrong with that. But more of the feminine Yin cycle is there's different times of the month depending if we're relating bleeding coming into oscillation, you know, out of our bleed time, our energy cycle is different. And even if you know women listening are menopausal had stopped bleeding or not bleeding for whatever reason, our bodies still sync with the moon. And so there's just times with whether the moon is full or dark a new moon, are as women, our bodies really sink in with that, and it's more about peak energy time versus a low energy time. And so it you know, you don't even have to let get militant about the moon or the moon. You know, this is my work of I'm always cueing clients of notice what feels really nourishing right now, not because you should or you have to, or somebody posted about on Instagram, but does it just feel nourishing to like, take a nap. And, and noticing that and giving yourself permission. So that's so much of my work of tracking, instead of beating ourselves with a whip, really noticing what can
Arlina Allen 21:11
we Yeah, I love that you are not shame based, I can already hear it, you know, it's more nurturing and supportive. And you It's really cool. You know, a lot of the stuff, I know that you're like in the corporate world, like you're very corporate friendly, like palatable. And when I was listening to a lot of your stuff, I was thinking of my friends, you know, I'm from Silicon Valley, I did, I was corporate for a very long time. And in sales, tech sales, and so very, like male dominated very robotic, I would say, and very, like, absent of feelings. It's like, No, no, we don't talk about failing, they can talk about, they'll talk about stress, like, but that's about it, like tired or stressed. Like, the language is very limited. And so it's so it's so interesting that you have it seems like a very unique capability, capacity for being able to speak the corporate language, right, meet people where they are, but then also introduce very practical ideas, you know, paying attention to, you know, the moon and stuff like that, that that was not I did not expect that. And I think it's so refreshing when you're able to sort of live, you know, straddle the, you know, the corporate world, which is so robotic and so shot like, shallow is that I don't know if that's fair. But you know, people are trying to survive in this very, you know, a, a type driven accomplishment, don't feel anything environment. Right? Yeah. I don't know, where alcohol
Unknown Speaker 22:45
comes in. Like, it makes so much sense then, when we drive ourselves at that level. Why alcohol is also so prevalent in
Arlina Allen 22:52
the corporate world. Yeah, big time.
Unknown Speaker 22:55
Yeah. You know, and that's where I really feel like I learned how to corporate minds love physiology. And they, they're fascinated by how the brain works, and that peak performance and, and how to manage stress, you know, that those are buzzwords. And so bringing that in, in kind of a fun inspiring, like, a little bit of a different angle. It's that's where I learned to, to really speak to this, that that was kind of a universal message. And so, you know, I certainly wouldn't lock in talking about the moon. I have, I have found that weird. You know, I'm interested in those aspects that I've found by building the rapport and laying the groundwork of when there's this gut brain connection and what the bacteria in your gut is doing. And this there's this nerve in the back of the cranium called poly vagal nerve, when it's not toned. And this dysregulation, like, which I mean, I level that too. I'm fascinated by it. I you know, I love kind of that logical, yeah, give me that, you know, what is this? Like? How does it work? Why does it work? And then building that rapport where people can be like, that's so fascinating. And then it's like, oh, and do you also know that it's our bodies are 70% water and the moon regulates the tides that the ocean water? Our body is also you know, there's a thing to that it's responding to it. Yeah. And so when we set it up in the physiology which all of this can can be backed in physiology, there's data for all of it, and then it doesn't sound so Whoo. And like, well, this is just nuts.
Arlina Allen 24:43
It's like well, I love how science is explaining why woo is so fascinating, right? It's like there are those of us that less I'm pretty open minded. You know, but I need some science behind it to, but I am I almost missed the whole we should highlight the fact that Do you really like this gray area drinking expert right that's that's really how I came to know you and I thought you know that is meeting people where they are in the corporate world like in the corporate world these people are so driven and there's this perfectionism that happens in the corporate world it's like don't show any of your any of your flaws you know it's like this very robotic it's pushed yourself you know endlessly this 80 Hour Workweek is celebrated and you know they claim work life balance but you know I would be on at sales you know, quarterly business reviews where the VP would be out drinking until like, you know six in the morning and show up for the eight o'clock meeting still a little bit drunk I'm I would imagine and so it's so interesting to sort of gently like we're avoiding words like alcoholism which you know, we don't we understand that that's not really a thing anymore. There's a spectrum but the gray area drinking seems to be seems to be a very nice entry point Can you explain to the listeners like people listening they're like what is this gray area drinking because I think once you explain it everyone goes Oh, yeah, I totally know what that is. Yeah, so
Unknown Speaker 26:15
I was teaching I was doing a lot of contract work from 2004 to 2011 in corporate America trip flying and traveling around the whole United States doing on site workshops being contracted to come in for exactly what you're speaking to us Can you come do these training programs for the employees on this work life balance, they're really stressed they're you know, we're watching the biometrics we're doing these health fairs and we want to have blood pressure kind of overall more in range and their cholesterol and their BMI and we realize it's more of a comprehensive approach so when you come teach them so that you know that was that's my foundation and the work I was doing and what we never talked about around blood pressure and weight and sleep issues and stress was alcohol but you know, bringing in then these resources these regulating resources of around food and around sleep and really practical things to do some regulation in the body which which employees loved and because you know, a lot of people would come into the workshop saying I know this stuff, I'm a marathon runner, you know this it's my hobby and and then we do these workshops and they're like, I didn't know this like I didn't know that about you know, grounding and what like the omega three fat actually does in my brain with my neuro chemicals and so again, people I work with, they're very well read, they're very smart they like this information, they're already reading books listening to podcasts, but then when we can apply it to peak performance and the challenges that come up because of the you know, the corporate deadlines and and a lot of people are drinking heavily and we're not talking about it. And so I would come in from the angle of your craving brain whatever your brain is craving. Here's some ways to you know, because you don't hang the hang the poster seven come to the alcohol class in the boardroom at noon, like people are not going to be alone, right? People are not going to you know, trip over themselves to get to that boardroom but when we talk about the craving brain and ways that you can regulate and work with you know, your innate body's rhythms and cycles and systems in the gut in the brain, people were really really fascinated by that. And then to your question about you know, what is gray area drinking it's that space where people are functioning really well my clients tell me this all the time, I saw it all the time in the corporate world, people function and they drink really heavily. And if they didn't fall into that those traditional definitions of like end stage, just kind of rock bottom the wheels fall off our life but they also weren't every now and again drinkers where they had a drink or two a couple times a year, they were in between this and it was this gray area where again slipping through the cracks it was the white elephant in the room that is how everybody was drinking and nobody was talking about it. And it's how I was drinking and teaching wellness you know, it's like I love this stuff I love about functional nutrition and with the body and regulating the body and then on the weekends I'd be out with my friends drinking like everybody else around me It's how we all drank but it was just you know, and then I would stop many many times and I can't keep drinking like this and I was able to stop it wasn't a problem for me to stop what was more of the problem was after a couple months saying why am I being so restrictive I can have a drink so I would go back to drinking this the staying stopped the same stop which is very characteristic of gray area drinkers because people will say you know, I don't drink every day I you know, go weeks and don't drink. I'm like that's really characteristic. But the hard thing is Sticking with that because it's this gray area of like but nothing bad has happened like I don't have this external kind of proof that there's a problem yet it's the 3am wake up the dry mouth that mentally beating ourselves up but nobody hears that conversation except us in our own head and then going through the gymnastics of okay I'm now I'm just going to drink on the weekend I'm not going to I'm not going to drink again I'm it's this whole thing that goes on for months and years that nobody ever talked about
Arlina Allen 30:31
this it seems there there's this whole other layer of insanity that goes around trying to manage it right like oh well I'm just gonna drink a glass of water between drinks or I'm gonna have a glass of water by the bedside with electrolytes in it so that when I wake up in the morning in the middle of the night just totally dehydrated or you know having the Advil and the by Xen and the charcoal things and the oh my god I'm exhausted just thinking about it right it's like this whole insanity to make make it okay from for the drinking part and it's the whole back and forth that is was so exhausting I wonder so and we were talking a little bit about like just having the information is not enough it's about applying the information but don't you feel like there had to you had to like make a decision like at some point you got sick of the back and forth and you what what was there like a tipping point for you that you were just like this is that I'm done for good this time?
Unknown Speaker 31:29
Well that was December 14 2014 which was the the solid in my bones resolute I'm done. This is it and you know, it wasn't a Cavalier decision It wasn't easy. Alcohol is a problem for me you know, it was very typical for me I'm just gonna have a glass I can just you know, I want to just open a bottle at home pour that glass and then I would drink it and be like, ah, screw it I'll have enough it was very easy to do you know finish the bottle that was that was my kind of typical pattern and knock on wood. Fortunately nothing you know, half bad happened like I didn't have a DUI or anything like that, but there was so much of that. That's how I drank and then I would stop many many times over the years under the wellness umbrella I'm going to do a paleo challenge I'm I'm doing a yoga you know challenge I I'm just not going to drink and people get used to that and and it worked because they knew I was in wellness they knew I was and it's like oh that makes sense like you're doing so I never really it was it I flew under the radar with it. But then I would say oh I can you know be a social drinker. I want to be a social drinker. So it really to your question, it was just so much of that back and forth which is exhausting. It never changes I would go right back to where I left off whether it was one month or seven months it didn't matter and it was just this resolute because I had bad you know back and forth so many times of just I'm tired of this. I don't want to keep doing this. I've been through different seasons with it I've been through different experiences with it. You know what I've been dating not dating really high stress with work or whatever, it just doesn't change and I had that real conversation with myself December 14 2014 going through those scenarios of like you know what if I go on this romantic holiday like what if and I was like no no, I'm just I'm done. And that was seven I'm coming up on my seven year anniversary this December.
Arlina Allen 33:40
Oh my gosh, that's so exciting. Congratulations that is not easy. That is not easy. Yeah, so Okay, so you know what I love about what you do is that the science behind it the science behind like the addiction of alcoholism or alcohol the science sort of depersonalized is that right? And so it takes out the shame takes out the gill and it's like well of course you're getting addicted to alcohol Look what it's doing to your brain right and so you talk about three the neurotransmitters and a way that I thought was so good it was like oh, that's why right so you talked about GABA, serotonin and dopamine and you're gonna be able to explain it much better but when I heard you talk about it the first time I was like that as the shit Oh my god, like people need to hear this. So what is your What is your explanation behind those three neuro chemicals and how they make us feel that sort of drive the compulsion to drink
Unknown Speaker 34:46
well, so that you know there's there's four major neural chemicals I hit on three of them in my TED talk, but there's four major ones. So two are the gas pedal for our body and then two are the brakes for us. So the gas pedal dopamine and serotonin. So dopamine is the drive that shapes that with the motivation to to move. To get up out of bed and produce we need that we need to be motivated. And then the acetylcholine is the other kind of gas pedal. And that's about focus and memory. And then serotonin and GABA are the brakes. So GABA is that relaxation feeling where the mind shuts off. And there's just that feeling of kind of that downshift. And serotonin is just the feeling of happiness, bliss, life is good, I'm not really needing or craving anything to fill a void right now I'm just I'm content I'm good. And so we need the balance of gas pedal what you know, we need to move and stay motivated and produce and we're, you know, accomplish and have that drive. And we need memory to have that memory bank and our focus and like these are, you know, important things just to biologically function. But then we need to balance that with rest and relaxation, and some happiness and some bliss and just contentment. And so when you know, those get out of balance for all kinds of reasons, sleep, you know, not sleeping, well, eating a lot of processed food and sugar, drugs and alcohol, trauma, stress, so all of those things can open up the valve, where's those neural chemicals just flush through us much quicker, because we're inside that's like who there's stress, there's, you know, all this sugar, all this alcohol. So we need to compensate open the valve and then all of a sudden, it's like, we're really depleted now and gabbeh or something, you know, we're going through that scenario, and the body just can't do the uptake enough to replenish and make it quick enough to fill it up. So we're the dumping it too fast, or not making it fast enough. And so when we come into baseline, the body can do what it knows to do, it can make adequate chemicals through real food, like omega three fish oil, you know, through the amino acids, those are the raw materials that then make these neural chemicals. And we can we can hold on to our neural chemicals and not just flesh them through our system so quickly, by you know, some different practices and movement and rest and good replenishing sleep. And so to me, it's it's where the rubber meets the road with all of the practices, exercises, theories, techniques, because you spoke to it a minute ago about how we can just kind of get into like this militant, like I need to do it, I should do it. I heard it's good. I heard it's bad. I heard it's like, no, it's about noticing, what are you needed to replenish right now what's deficient and depleted. And so the body's just trying to keep us in homeostasis, and that, and then we reach to alcohol. So it's like when we understand the physiology, it's like, Oh, interesting, something's depleted and deficient, physiologically, not psychologically. And so the body's just trying to compensate. So alcohol is a physical substance, our physical body is depleted, we and our physical body, and we get a physical effect very immediately. So the body's like, keep doing it, like i don't i, this, it seems to work immediately. So and that's been where that addictive loop gets in. So where I then work is, let's lift the hood, what's depleted in the first place, biochemically, emotionally, energetically, and let's replenish what's truly needing to be replenished. It's not because you're a bad person, or you did something wrong. It's just like going to be in the body detective, the body whisperer, which I love doing. And, and often, it's just, you know, it doesn't have to be really complicated. It's just going back to the basics. And I'd find this in the corporate world all the time, too. We want the shiny, you know, stuff, the shiny next thing, and nobody's hydrated. Nobody's sleeping regularly. And this is where the application comes down. Because it's, it's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I should drink more water should get better slide,
Arlina Allen 39:12
isn't it, nobody wants to hear that.
Unknown Speaker 39:17
It's not sexy. It's not glamorous, and we're out the other. I'm the same way I get it. But what's really cool about this work is when you have the actual experience. So when you actually have a 10 hour night of deep restorative sleep, it's mind blowing, it's a 180 it's the same way with, you know, sewers,
Unknown Speaker 39:36
or certain things. And so I'm always working with clients of like, it's not about getting a gold star from me and checking the box and doing all these things to perform and achieve. That's what makes us want to drink because we're, we're exhausted. So now it's when you put something in when you add it in, what happens because when we drink something happens and so if you're not noticing an effect that's really Positive that you can, you know, like, again, when I do breath work, there's an effect. Like, I feel that I mean, there's this bliss and this calm that moves through my body by by, you know, consciously doing different practices with my breath. So it's like I want to do that again, like that almost feels like I just had a glass of wine, what I did with that breathwork so that's the work and it's it's exciting, it can be really inspiring. And it's very empowering to go back to the physiology because that's where all the secrets and the magic are. And it puts aside the psychological shame that we've kind of gotten tangled in that's really unnecessary. Yeah,
Arlina Allen 40:40
you know, you hit on something that kind of sparked a light me which is about adding in, because a lot of recovery is about taking away, right, we're taking away the one thing like listen, when I was still drinking, and I smoked a lot of weed. Taking I was I loved those things, those were the things that receiving me, right and I crashed and burned early, I was done at 25. Because I did not manage, because not managing well. But to let them go was so hard because it was I felt like the thing that was bringing me like that was saving me so to let it so deprivation, I you know is a big thing for people that are you know, going alcohol free, or getting sober or whatever. And I love the idea that you're presenting which is adding in, right, let's add in the things that give you the feeling that we wanted from the drugs or alcohol in the first place. So it's a totally different mindset instead of deprivation. It's about adding I love that idea.
Unknown Speaker 41:46
Yeah, I do too. deprivation doesn't work for me. So I'm not going to try to talk with somebody else or coach somebody else through deprivation, like I don't want to be deprived who does. Nobody wants that. It doesn't work. So I would
Arlina Allen 41:58
be there we would be broken alone.
Unknown Speaker 42:02
And we know from behavior change from behavior, psychology, that deprivation, it never works now, but I can put it back in the physiology. So what we're dealing with is the amygdala and the animal brain, the animal brain only concern it has one concern as to keep us alive, right? And so if there's a sense of deprivation, that signals it's a biological signal, we're gonna die. So who's gonna win? Is that animal, right? Every time. So we've got to give the message then to the amygdala, that alarm center in the body that we're not in this deprivation, like we're not going to die, you're, we want to give that animal something. And, and that animal kind of limbic brain, it doesn't understand language. So this is why you know, saying, Just relax.
Arlina Allen 42:51
Don't ever tell an angry woman to relax? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 42:54
well, it's like, it's literally like saying to an animal, just relax. They don't understand words our animal brain does literally doesn't understand words. But what it understands is sensation. And so alcohol gives us sensation in the physical body, walking barefoot on the beach gives a physical sensation. If I take a gamma boosting herb, it gives us sensation. And so that's where it's like the rubber meets the road with these practices of what we're doing is we're working on the physiology to give us sensation, that then travels up the spinal cord from the body into the brain saying, Oh, that feels good. And the animal brain is like, Okay, I'm not deprived, I feel this comfort, I feel soothing, I feel contained, which is what we're ultimately looking for. So it's not you give up alcohol and jump off a cliff and just hold your breath and hope for the best. It's, you make a decision to stop alcohol, and then open up this door and explore all of these really cold processes that give a physiological effect that no one ever taught us. But
Arlina Allen 43:59
exactly nobody ever taught us that's why we're using reaching for things that are not good for us because you know, that's what's available. We don't know about all these other things. And this is really speaks to the I want to get to the nurse thing, don't let me forget. But I wanted to also point out something that you highlight, which is it used to be that we would talk about the brain first and then the body and you flip that around, you're talking about addressing the somatic experience and and you hit the nail on the head when you're talking about experience and feelings. Right? And so talk to me a little bit about how we you're we're looking at this differently now we're looking at somatic and then neuro chemistry.
Unknown Speaker 44:45
So you know, that's the latest neuroscience, where Bessel Vander kolk, who wrote the bought the book, the body keeps the score. Oh, Peter Levine, who is the grandfather of somatic experiencing. This is the current research and it's not their opinion. It's I mean, the data is there.
Arlina Allen 45:02
Yeah, there, we have empirical data, we've got the
Unknown Speaker 45:05
data, they're doing the studies, they're you know, they're measuring gabbeh levels, then they have a group of people do 60 minutes of yoga, and then they measure their data levels again, so they're really watching this kind of stuff. But where all of this kind of somatic new neuroscience, what they find from research, not opinion, is that it's bottom up, not top down. So we work with the body, which is kind of all the stuff I've been talking about when we shift the body and the body can start to feel a sensation of calm, and soothing and grounding. That message goes up the spinal cord to the brain. And then the brain can say, the animal brain can say, okay, we're, we're okay with that. Because, again, that animal brain doesn't understand language. So we can't talk to the animal brain. We have to have feel that sensations in the body in really practical ways. This is not esoteric. Whoo, whoo, whoo, whoo.
Arlina Allen 46:01
I like blue. But this is science.
Unknown Speaker 46:03
Yeah, yeah. So that it's, you know, it's where the neurosciences and so that's where I work I work with with physiology with
Arlina Allen 46:11
physiology. Okay. And that makes perfect sense. And that maybe this is a good segue Can we talk about your acronym for nourish because it was all
Unknown Speaker 46:21
good, thank you. So as a as a functional nutritionist, my just really kind of, to pick a word that embodies my work over 20 years, it's it's nourish, which is my strength, and also my shadow, because the work for me is continually nourishing myself and not just food. So what I teach is what I also learn and keep practice. Yeah, so I'm always you know, it's not like I just quit drinking and now I've arrived and tell everybody else what they need to do. Constant practice, alright, but but the word that anchors that for me is nourish and then I created an acronym out of that for for my TED Talk. And so and is notice nature. Oh is observe your breath. You is unite with others are replenished with food. I initiate movement. s sit in stillness, and h is harnessed creativity. And I'm working on my book right now all about that, oh, there's numerous, numerous options and resources and things within each of those categories. But it really brings that whole comprehensive approach biochemical, somatic, emotional, energetic routines, that different things work for different people for regulating and nourishing the nervous system.
Arlina Allen 47:51
You just said something in my eyes lit up, because everybody is different, right? There's so many different paths to this sort of recovery, sobriety, alcohol free life, right? Not there's no one solution that works for everybody. And I think that's largely what's so confusing, is, there are so many, like everybody is so different. And there are so many different tools, but I like the idea that this nourish actually can be applied no matter what your specific situation it is. Your situation is. So what are some of the you mentioned, different supplements and things to sort of regulate those? You know, the GABA, serotonin, dopamine, acetylcholine? What if someone's curious about like, what they should be using? Do you have a resource on your website? Or maybe you can just rattle off a few things that people might try?
Unknown Speaker 48:50
Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to kind of talk through some of those pieces. So I work with clients one on one to really customize this piece. And kind of piggyback on what you just said, I really work with biochemical individuality. So I can rattle off some things, but it surrounds snowflakes,
Arlina Allen 49:06
unique snowflakes, right? It doesn't
Unknown Speaker 49:09
mean everybody out there then needs to take this particular supplement or eat this particular food. And B, this is my functional medicine background of what is individual for your biochemistry. And there's different ways to test that. And we can do lab testing and things. But But you know, the easiest, most inexpensive way is when you eat something, when you take something when you do something, notice what happens next, and three things happen. And it can be a really profound like, wow, that helps so much. My mind is blown right now. Or it can be kind of a neutral, like didn't really feel anything one way or the other. Or it can be I hated that, and I don't like how I feel now. And so I'm always cueing people back to that and the more kind of regulated and grounded we are in our body when the body is Calm, and there's practices and ways to do that, the easier it is then to kind of notice, like, what just happened here. Whereas if we're always kind of up in our head and just running and you know, in that intellect mental, it's hard to be like, I don't even know if I liked it. I mean, I just did it. So that's the argument of kind of somatic work. But um, but going back to just kind of some things, you know, I recommend, so biochemically whole food is king is golden. eating real food is is a great place to start. So did it grow from the ground? Can you pick it? berries? You know, bananas off the tree? Can you know, can you hunt it? If you eat meat? Can you gather it like gathering fish, or eggs or cream from the cow. So actual real food, that there isn't a list of ingredients, you know, 43 letters long and a whole paragraph. Real Food. And this is what I would teach in corporate all the time is, it's actually really, really fascinating. You know, one of the most fascinating lectures I ever heard in functional medicine, was a medical doctor who lectured about broccoli for an hour, it was fascinating. Because the chemical breakdown in broccoli, and every fruit and every vegetable, some of that we are still discovering. Because it's like, yeah, yeah, eat your vegetables. But when you really break it down, it's mind blowing, like what that, again, it's physical food and our physical body, what that does. So going back to the basics of whole food, if there's anything I can inspire people with is eat real food. That's in season, it's local, it's colorful, if possible, sometimes that's not always possible. But starting there, you know, eating regularly, because then the body breaks down into amino acids that are the raw materials for the brain. When you eat real, healthy fats, those break down into the omega three fats, some of our omega six fats, those are those necessary fats, again, for the brain, you know, good vegetables, even fermented vegetables, like sauerkraut, that's that good bacteria that goes into the gut. So there's just, it's just endless. The benefits of, you know, the exciting, like, mechanisms within food. And so I like to start there and try to you know, inspire people, and you don't have to, like clear your cupboards. It doesn't have to be radical. Yeah, I'm never radical about any of this. But the idea of adding something in instead of trying to take a bunch of stuff out, add in real food,
Arlina Allen 52:39
and real food, that isn't it? Yeah. And I think you were, I think I heard you say that the amino acids and the proteins are the building blocks to these neuro chemicals that we need. And like, at the end of the day, when maybe your gamma is low, or serotonin, or whatever it may be, all of them are low at the end, is that true that it's low at the end of the day?
Unknown Speaker 53:00
That's a good question. Um, I think it's more kind of over time, you know, like a 30 day period, a snapshot of like, what are we, you know, kind of dumping in that period, although there are urine tests that we do a 24 hour urine collection, and they are seeing like, how much of the neurotransmitter were dumped into our urine in a 24 hour period. So I think it's both you know, just kind of seeing like, the pattern that the body is on but also it's interesting, like what happens over over a longer period too.
Arlina Allen 53:32
Yeah, the reason I asked about the end of the day because I feel like that's like the witching hour for a lot of people, you know, but I think it speaks to meeting like we're so jacked up all day trying to get stuff done, that in the evening we're trying to do was deregulate down regulate to regulate, yeah, just just regulate, yeah, emotion management thing.
Unknown Speaker 53:56
So biochemistry is a huge part of it, our neuro chemicals, our blood sugar, our you know, our thyroid, our gut bacteria, our adrenal function. So adrenals are closely connected with dopamine. So if we're running on cortisol and adrenaline, then we're also pulling down on dopamine as well. Every neural chemicals connected with a hormone. So progesterone and gabbeh are connected, which I find a lot of women who are in this gray area struggle with wine are low and progesterone and low and Gabba. And you know, a common kind of symptom complaint of those two chemicals being low is anxiety and difficulty sleeping. And so a lot of women that are reaching to wine to help them sleep and to help manage their anxiety and when we lift the physiological hood, it's low gabicce, low progesterone. So there's all of these kind of physiological pieces, we can start with food, there's different nutrients that can i Find a lot of women are low and gabbeh. Dopamine is the sexy neuro chemical that everybody's like, oh, the dopamine hit the dopamine hit but but in reality, if we're really trying to boost dopamine, we tend to be more interested in things like cocaine, ecstasy, espresso, a pot of coffee, where if we're cocaine or coffee is more low gabbeh, which I'm certainly have that predisposition to be low gabbeh that's been more reaching to things like marijuana, Cannabis, alcohol to hit that off switch. So it's interesting what people you know, reach to so that's the biochemical side, there's some herbs or some nutrients to boost GABA boost dopamine, but then there's also what you're talking about kind of the witching hour, at the end of the day, that then goes into some of just the nervous system fight flight freeze response. So it's not always biochemical, but they're all interconnected, they all work together. If we're in a constant flee response, we're going to be dumping a lot more, you know, of our gas, the dopamine they see, so it all connects. But the but the fight flee freeze response. And if we're, if that valve is always on, if we're always kind of in a flee or in a fight, or we've just in that frozen kind of immobilized, protective state, that's exhausting. Any of those states if the, if the on switch is always on. So by the end of the day, it's hard to continue, we're exhausted holding that dysregulated state. So now we want to regulate it with alcohol to kind of let the valve off constantly, you know, we're fleeing, we want to move we want to, and it's like, I want to stop and slow down. So it could be some of that polyvagal kind of stress response, as well. And then there's, you know, the, the energetic side of things. So this is acupuncture, you know, they talk about, like how the energy moves in the body. So, if there's an area that's, that's more stuck, or moving really fast, and that's where body work comes in acupuncture, you know, working with the energy system, so there's no one size fits all, but I work with people to get kind of the full story. And it's like, where do we want to kind of start here with what might be a missing piece? And what might be depleted? And it's so
Arlina Allen 57:17
good, how do people connect with you if they want to reach out and work with you.
Unknown Speaker 57:23
So gray area drinkers calm is my sites where all my info is, you can email me I work with clients, one on one, I have a coach training where I train other coaches on the nourish method. And my TED Talks, there are lots of interviews I've done. And then I have did a podcast as well called edit, editing, our drinking and our lives. And so all of that on gray area drinkers calm.
Arlina Allen 57:48
That is amazing. I leave all leave links, ever. I know people are probably taking notes or driving or whatever. So I'll leave all the links in the show notes. But this has been such a fascinating conversation. I could easily talk to you for the rest of the day. So many questions. And I just think this was so helpful. Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you so much for having me. It's fun to meet you and chat with you. Thank you. Yeah, definitely. Thanks so much. And I'll leave all the show notes, links in the show notes how people can get a hold of you.
Unknown Speaker 58:20
Wonderful. Thank you.
Arlina Allen 58:22
Thanks.
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