The Truth About Marriage, with Heather Havrilesky

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In the final episodes of the NBC sitcom “The Good Place,” our intrepid ensemble of Bad Place fugitives finally arrive at the real Good Place: an eternity of ease and joy. Almost immediately, they notice that all is not quite right. The denizens of the Good Place, finally delivered unto their eternal reward, are very f*****g not okay. They’re happiness-poisoned, so surfeited with fun and relaxation that they’re drowning in their own boredom. They’ve developed anhedonic armor against the relentless pleasure of heaven. The gang of newcomers looks around, shocked and horrified. All this time they’d been hearing about how rapturously wonderful the Good Place was… and this was the reality?

Heather Havrilesky’s new book, “Foreverland: On the Divine Tedium of Marriage,” gives us a similar surprise reveal for a more earthly dream: wedded bliss. That moment of shocking reveal is what made the pages of the New York Times, in an excerpt that catalyzed a massive Twitter storm. “Until Bill has enough coffee,” she writes, “[h]e is exactly the same as a heap of laundry: smelly, inert, almost sentient but not quite.” She also writes of his throat-clearing, his sneezes, his monologues on educational sciences. Marriage, she seems to conclude, “requires turning down the volume on your spouse.” Also, she writes, “he’s still my favorite person.”

Yes, this is what marriage to your favorite person might actually look like — not a rosy fantasia of passionate kisses and ardent speeches and your partner somehow doing and saying everything you’d like at exactly the right moment. It might be sort of a mess, and full of frustrations and disappointments. It might also still be really wonderful, and part of the wonder of it might come through the mess and the frustrations and disappointments. A marriage is a shared project, a puzzle; figuring out, together, how to survive the boring sameness and the human failings can be the most intimate and fulfilling part.

That’s what Havrilesky wanted to write about: not a perfect marriage, and not a broken one, but the gripping drama that takes place in a strong, happy marriage. The kinds of conflicts that are often breezily referred to as “ups and downs,” or with the vague admonition that “marriage takes work.”

We both loved Havrilesky’s book (we’re long-time fans of her advice column, Ask Polly) and were baffled by the backlash to “Foreverland,” so we were thrilled she agreed to join us for a conversation about her book, marriage and long-term partnership, aging and hanging on to your identity as a woman in this society, and why people had such a strong reaction to her book.

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We’ve been reading…

Sheila Heti’s “Pure Colour,” a dreamy origin myth and love story.

Also, Lydia Kiesling’s crackerjack essay on Horatio Alger, “Fifty Shades of Grey,” and the weird mix of American ambition and erotic predation that undergirds our culture’s most successful and enduring rags-to-riches fantasies. The disturbing truth she reveals about Alger truly shocked me, though, as she points out, it’s not a secret so much as rarely discussed, and her analysis of his life and work illuminates elements of the billionaire romantic fantasy that have never quite clicked into place for me before. -Claire

Blair McLendon’s New York Times magazine piece on America’s Black billionaires. -Emma

We’ve been watching…

“Minx,” the HBO Max show about a prim feminist (a Vassar grad and tennis club member) who joins forces with a porn mag publisher (played by a swaggering Jake Johnson) after no one else takes an interest in her consciousness-raising magazine, The Matriarchy Awakens. The twist he adds: nude male centerfolds. It’s not groundbreaking — it’s pretty classic uptight-lady-meets-charming-dirtbag material — but it’s well-executed and fun, and the 1970s hair doesn’t hurt. -Claire

All the screeners of “The Ultimatum.” Netflix’s newest reality romance show is a complete mess, but I cannot look away!!!! -Emma

We’ve been listening to…

The bonus episodes of “Biohacked: Family Secrets” on Apple Podcasts, each of which follow someone whose life and identity was upended by a home DNA test. The stories are utterly gripping. -Emma

This week’s bonus episode of Love to See It! I couldn’t make the taping because I was sick, so for this episode, I get to be a fan. Emma went to see The Bachelor Live in New York last weekend, and she recaps the whole bizarre evening with our friend Liviya Kraemer and our old producer Harry Huggins. -Claire

We’ve been buying…

A chelating shampoo, because apparently Jersey City has ridiculously hard water. (Our faucets have the white mineral stains to prove it.) Hard water can build up in your hair and make it dry and brittle — but chelating shampoo is also super drying?? Seems like a conspiracy. Why is it so hard to have hair? Should I just try to install a showerhead filter? My level of handiness is “Ikea dresser assembly.” -Claire

I took advantage of Sephora’s spring sale to get some of my favorites lightly discounted. After months of searching and revamping my makeup routine, I’ve finally landed on a concealer: ILIA True Skin Serum Concealer with Vitamin C. I grabbed two of those — I have been wearing some light concealer under my eyes and on any blemishes on days when I want to look fresh but don’t want to do a full face of makeup. I also grabbed Charlotte Tilbury Airbrush Flawless Setting Spray, a tube of Benefit 24-Hour Lamination Effect Brow Gel, and a Beauty Blender sponge, because mine has gotten pretty gross. -Emma

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