Ms. Marvel? Marvelous!

#330: Josué, Lara, Marc, and special guest host Sophia Ansari discuss Ms. Marvel, the importance of positive cultural representation, and the joy of seeing yourself in media. It’s Halal!

Transcript

Josué Cardona 0:11
Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network. Here at Geek Therapy we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. And joining me today is Marc Cuiriz

Marc Cuiriz 0:22
Hello,

Josué Cardona 0:23
Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:24
Hey,

Josué Cardona 0:26
and special guests. And I believe first time on GT Radio. Sophie Ansari

Sophia Ansari 0:31
hello

Josué Cardona 0:34
The Sophie Ansari from Hero Nation.

Sophia Ansari 0:37
Yes. That’s me.

Josué Cardona 0:38
Welcome.

Sophia Ansari 0:41
Thank you. It’s so good to be here. Oh, I feel so happy.

Josué Cardona 0:46
So I did not want to talk about Ms. Marvel without you. And so it was actually it was Lara, who suggested that we need to talk about Miss Marvel and I agree. And I think and I’m curious how you. Yeah, Sophia? What does Ms. Marvel as a character, mean to you?

Sophia Ansari 1:08
So how much time do we have Josué? I told you I have a journal full of thoughts. It’s like my dissertation.

Lara Taylor 1:17
Six hours CE course right here.

Sophia Ansari 1:20
Totally do. That is such a good idea. No, I Okay. Yeah. So I hope you know, if I cry, I know I’m in a safe place. But Oh, Miss Marvel, what can I say? I’ve been processing this for six weeks with friends with my therapist who? Goodness, she doesn’t know anything about comics. But she’s learned so much this past month.

Josué Cardona 1:46
And I’m curious about like, even before the show, rather than just the character in general. Because we’ve talked about this character first first, for so long. You and I Sophia, but just like on GT radio, we’ve talked about Ms. Marvel, so so, so much. And she’s come such a long way. Over the years. Like I was explaining to a friend, Ali from the show. I was like, Oh, the Avengers game like Kamala Khan is the protagonist of that game. Right? And he’s like, you know, that’s like, that’s like now that even with the show out, right, so so she’s incredibly popular character. Yeah. So I’m curious, you know, even before the show.

Sophia Ansari 2:24
Yeah, I mean, reading I growing up, read comic books. And you know, I love love storm, because, hey, you know, she’s not white. And I’m like, Oh, I can, I can see myself in her and always looking for someone who looks like me. Of course, always a fan of, you know, I love Batman and Superman. They mean so much to me. But when Kamala came along, it was the first time where I was like, oh, that’s me, you know, this geeky Brown, Pakistani Muslim girl. You know, I always say, you know, she’s from she’s from Jersey City. I’m from Ohio, which is basically like the same thing she loves wolverine. I find him very attractive, you know, like, geeked out over the same things. And so I just felt like it was like, somebody went back in time, and recorded me as a young, teen, geeky Brown Girl in Ohio. And yeah, made a story. And yeah, she’s always made me feel seen. And so she’s always been just this very special character. I’ve known her and loved her since the very beginning. When I found her, I was like, wait, what, you know, even just to see the word like Pakistani in anything. That was a big deal for me. Cuz a lot of people don’t even understand where Pakistan is. You know, they don’t you know, so. So that was important. So yeah, she’s always been such an important. Yeah, piece of art for me. And then the show comes along. And here we go. Again. Now it’s an actions and it’s, you know, on TV on this other scale, this other whole piece of art, right, we’ve got the comic books, which alone are magnificent, and amazing and funny. But now you have this other piece of art that we can appreciate in a whole new way. And I feel seen again, and I’ve been telling people when within anticipation of the show, you know, sort of worried like, oh, I don’t know, you know, how are they going to do this? And I didn’t even realize the weight I was carrying from the trauma of Muslim depictions and misrepresentations in the media. Like I didn’t even realize I was carrying all of that until I watched the first episode. All of that was lifted away. It was just lifted away. And there’s a lot of my friends that haven’t seen the show. I assuming you all have watched it from Okay, okay. So there’s a lot of my Muslim friends, my Pakistani Muslim friends who actually haven’t watched it. And I’ve been trying to process and understand why. And I realize it’s because, again, we just have decades of misrepresentation, that we don’t want to believe we can have meaningful representation, right? We’re like, expect to be hurt again. Because we’ve just been through so much all the depictions that are out there in the movies and TV of Muslims. You know, we know they’re always vilified or their terrorist or whatever, you know, all of that I felt personal ramifications of that as a Muslim American woman in America, and I wear a headscarf. So there’s also this other target. So I’ve personally felt the ramifications of the depiction in media. So this show, this show is just so meaningful in so many ways, because it really just humanizes Muslims. Right? And they’re just like, normal people. So yeah, I don’t know how much time that was, but I can keep going on. I want to hear your thoughts and not just keep going on and on. But yeah, she just means a lot.

Josué Cardona 6:05
Yeah, we’re gonna touch on a whole bunch of that. And I know for, for me. As someone who actually grew up in New Jersey, and have been to Ohio, I’m not sure how similar those two have been. I haven’t seen all of Ohio. I’ve loved the character for a long time. And, and this show just, I think part of part of part of what has surprised me, and I’m sure we’ll get into all of this is I carry that same fear for Hispanic representation. So I carry it for everybody who’s not white. Right, like every time like, oh, here we go. Because I, I know what it’s like to see. And actually, I heard the actress who plays Kamala on the show, I saw a piece of an interview with her yesterday, where she said, every time you know, you’re, you’re on screen, it’s like, that is representative of your entire culture. And because this show is it’s Kamala, it’s her family, it’s the mosque, it’s the community. And then you get to see so many this, this is the part that surprised me, and I Link isn’t here to remind us that like Disney as a corporation of Marvel, the corporation above all that stuff, but like that, that is true, and seeing how it feels like they care so much to show so many aspects of a culture that I I’m not very familiar with. And most people aren’t unless that’s the community you live in, or you’re close to that, right. And there’s so many, so many cultures that that we don’t get to see like that. And if this was, I don’t know, it felt so responsible and so full of care and like, positive intent, you know, or like, there was, it was, I am, I am shocked. I am shocked by by what this show did. And I’m curious to hear from you, Sophia how I’m shocked that they just did they tried. And I’m assuming that it’s positive representation based on on tik tok alone. So, and I’m curious how you feel about you know, specific things, but, but yeah, like this, this show blew away, like blew me away, and my expectations were or had been surpassed so much. And that’s just like, that’s just on tone on people on like, perspective. Like, as far as quality and everything, like it’s just like, as a Marvel show, too. It’s like, yes, like it is it is good. It feels part of the universe. And all of the changes that they made to the character. At first, I was like, oh, okay, um, because I’m down for a different version. Please get creative with it doesn’t have to be exactly the show. But the meaning behind the way that they changed some things, once you get to the end is so so significant, toward the positive, like so intentional, that and it doesn’t remove the fact that we still have the other version in the comics as well. So like we have another version of the story that I don’t know, it’s it was a I I’m still like, almost speechless.

Lara Taylor 9:47
Those changes were something I was going to I was worried about. And by the end of the first episode, I didn’t care as much because they had done such a good job. When she gets to the embiggen thing I was like, Okay, I don’t care anymore. This is awesome. They kept that. And then at the very end, I’m like, okay, all of those things, I was worried that we’re going to be missing from her character because of the the change in the origin. They gave me that and more because of the meaning and the intention behind what they did with her origin story. It was beautiful, beautiful. love it so much.

Sophia Ansari 10:26
I agree, yes

Josué Cardona 10:28
Yes, Marc, what do you think of this show?

Marc Cuiriz 10:31
Hmm, I think I think I was very much actually. Like in the same boat, kind of like you were like, I know, I’ve seen obviously the how different cultures and different communities can be misrepresented in media, and kind of carrying that sort of weight with you, without even really knowing it. And then every time you’re watching, like a show, like Ms. Marvel, where for me, I was really, really excited when it came out. I was like, oh, we need to watch this, like the day of I made sure every single Wednesday like before, like before even dinner was made I was having it pulled up and ready to go. Because I was just excited that, you know, again, it’s one of those characters where it’s highlighting a completely different community, one that I’m not so familiar with, but just seeing that representation. And then like, especially after the first episode, just kind of seeing like, what you’re saying how it seems like Marvel and Disney like really trying to show that they cared to highlight these different perspectives, and also showcase kind of what it like, what it can kind of be like, just even in a, like, they draw the similarities between the Marvel Universe and even what goes on in everyday life with in our reality. And as the show kept progressing, I just kept getting more and more into it. And I could tell that my wife was getting a little like she was, she was into it, she really enjoyed it. But there were there are times when she got pulled away. And I think it was because of that whole, she couldn’t really connect to it. Because she doesn’t know because, you know, she’s white, growing up in predominantly white communities, so she wasn’t necessarily exposed to those sorts of things. So she always had a lot of questions. And those questions would often pull her out of the moments at times. And I mean, I’m not the most familiar with, like the comics and everything like that. I haven’t been too much of a comics reader. But just based on what I do know, based on, you know, listening to old podcast episodes, or just watching YouTube videos and things like that, I kind of helped fill in as many blanks as I could, but also just also having those same questions and the same, but I came in at it from like a point of like, like, wonderment basically, I was like, I wonder how they’re going to do this. I wonder what’s going to happen with that. And that always got me to, like, look up new information and look up more about the character and look up more about just how Ms. Marvel is as a superhero, and so on and so forth. So long story short, I really enjoyed the series, I thought it was great. I thought it was amazing. And I’m really excited for where they’re going to take this character moving forward.

Josué Cardona 13:14
I’m gonna flip something on you, Marc and then then I want to hear Sophia’s take on this. There’s a part of the show that feels very educational, right? There’s like the celebration of of Pakistani American culture as well, right? Because it’s like here in this country. But then it’s like, nah let’s actually show the history. Let’s show how this, we talk about it. And then we show it, which I don’t care how they got there. But I was so happy when they did. Right. And and it’s one of those things where, like, we we talked about Assassin’s Creed, which is a game series that that Marc kinda likes. And they’ve had these like educational nodes in between, right? It’s like taking out the opportunity of like, now that we’re here, and we’re in this world, why not take that extra step? Since we’re already here and kind of weave that into the story or give you the opportunity to learn more through not only exposure, but like, let’s let’s visit history, let’s time travel. And that is one of the things that just it’s like, it almost feels like I don’t know if we’ll have an opportunity to do this again. So let’s let’s, let’s go all out to the whole thing. And Sophia, I’m curious how that like, is that? How do you feel about all of that? Like, did you think that they would go that hard?

Sophia Ansari 14:33
No, that’s a it’s a great question, because people even asked about was the partition even a big storyline in the comics? And it really, it was discussed very briefly in the comics, and there’s like a couple pages on it.

Lara Taylor 14:45
Yeah,

Sophia Ansari 14:46
but it wasn’t like a big, big thing. And I love how the partition in the show isn’t just like a background story, but it actually helps Kamala makes sense of herself and her powers,

Josué Cardona 15:02
we spent the whole episode there.

Sophia Ansari 15:03
oh my gosh

Josué Cardona 15:06
I still can’t believe this is true. This is this is real!

Sophia Ansari 15:08
this this episode, this is where I might get emotional. But this episode was very emotional for me. Because my family was directly impacted by the events of the partition. I have stories that my mom has told me about her grandmother. So my great grandmother, and so there’s a line in the show where her brother Aamir says Every family has a partition story. Yes, every family has a partition story. And I remember hearing my mom’s stories about my great grandmother, who lived through that. And the night when everyone was packing up their belongings, because everything happened very suddenly. And I don’t know, if you all, you know, went deeper into learning about the partition, but there’s just it’s such a sad, sad time in history, so much loss, it’s just devastating. And they mentioned in the show, the bloody trains, or we call it like blood trains. My great grandmother witnessed that, you know, as people were scrambling, trying to get out, they would get on these trains, and these trains would be looted. And people would come on with machetes and kill every single person on the train. And when the train would arrive to their destination, it would just be full of just bodies and dripping in blood. And sometimes the only survivors were the children who hid under their parents bodies. And my grandmother saw this and my my great grandmother saw this. And my grandmother was very small at the time. And yeah, we apparently my family was, we were wealthy in India, they had money and we had land, we had to pick everything up, only take whatever we could. My mom tells me that there was a caretaker that would help on the farm. And he didn’t want to stay. He wanted to come with my family. And he was actually Hindu. But he was he saw my family as family. And he said, I don’t want it Don’t leave me alone. So he came along, they got on the train, and they made it out of there. And you know, settled in Pakistan, and my mom has all these stories about growing up the caretaker. I mean, he lived for a really long time. So she even remembers him. Right? And he would have stories of that. So yeah, directly like this, this is this kind of stuff, where it even made me reach out to some of my family members to even learn a little bit more about my history. But I think a lot of people don’t know about the the partition or that part of history. And because, you know, we just focus on European history. And, and, you know, that’s the whole part of history that’s glossed over, even though it was the single greatest migration of people in human history. And millions of people were killed. And so, yeah, I think it’s, I think it’s great that they tricked you into learning something. Good.

Lara Taylor 17:59
It makes me it makes me feel good to hear you say that the representation and then bringing this in is a good thing. Because, I mean, I have friends who are Pakistani, and who are Muslim, but I don’t, I don’t ask them because I don’t want them to have to educate me, right. I’m the token queer and a lot of groups and I don’t want them to have to be the token, brown person, right, and the token person to teach me. So I’m impressed that the two times I have learned about partition are from geeky shows from Doctor Who, and from Miss Marvel, and it it has pushed me to learn some more things. Because while we do get some history outside of European history, yeah. Partition was something that was never taught to me in school. And so I love that they have this and that other people who are younger than me are going to ask about this and learn.

Josué Cardona 18:54
I’m curious, like, in terms of historic parallels, right, and that are portrayed in media. I’m thinking of like, I’ve seen multiple movies about the Holocaust, for example, right? Never see, you know, unlike American Hollywood movies, I’ve never seen a movie about partition. And how does it feel to see this period of of history on on TV? Because I know, some events and I’ll bring up also there’s a lot of black media, right that over the years has touched like police violence, for example. And I’ve seen black creators say like, we don’t need to show that anymore. Like we have enough of that we live it. We don’t we don’t need to, you know, be that graphic and show it. So I bring up these other two examples just to see how do you how do you feel Sophia and how do you think other people might feel? Who’s whose families right or who, like either lived it or more affected by it or just the trauma is there, you know, over generations having this be shown in the way it was on a Marvel show on a Disney platform, etc. Like, I know, that’s a lot of stuff. But I’m curious, because we’re, you know, if we work with clients, and when we’re in we’re and we’re, you know, we have family and friends are Pakistani, like, how do you think people are reacting or feeling about about this?

Sophia Ansari 20:36
Yeah, I mean, I think they handled it very beautifully, you know, this show is authentic, and that it’s written by Muslims, Pakistanis. It’s directed, it’s produced. I mean, this is made by us, for us. I mean, we’ve been begging for so long for just a morsel of representation. And we’ve been asking of it from people who don’t look like us. And we finally, we finally got to create something. So it’s a gift to my community. And I think it was beautifully handled in the show. Of course, you know, we can’t it’s a it’s a 40 minute show, if you’ve been that can’t get into every detail, but I think they handled it beautifully. And that the goal wasn’t to point any fingers to anyone, because the topic is very, you know, it’s a tense topic, because even today, there’s a lot of tension between Muslims and Hindus as we speak right now, right? Because the partition gave way to nationalism. And so we see that today that the generations the kids that were the product of this, there’s, there’s a lot going on right now. So I think they were very careful in really focusing on telling this family’s story of intergenerational trauma, obviously, triggered by this chapter in history. And really, I think they did a beautiful job of conveying a sense of empathy for pain on all sides, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, all sides. And they did it through exploring four generations of women, and how trauma has impacted those relationships over time. And I really loved I had read this interview from one of the writers, and he said that, what does he say like the when she embiggens, you know, she embiggens at the very end, like the very last episode, and he says, It was at this point where she’s gone through all of that self discovery and understanding her identity and understanding her great grandmother’s story, her grandmother’s story. And so her power really comes from this matrial line of generations of women. And so it goes back to this idea that your power is in your family, your power is where you come from, and your power is in who you are. So like her embiggening is this physical manifestation of this internal change that she just went through? Like, how beautiful of a metaphor is that? So beautiful. So when she embiggens, she’s not just herself. She’s all four of those women who came before her. And I think of that too, for me to be here, sitting here alive, and having the life that I’m here I’m having, it’s because my ancestors survived. And I am their wildest dreams. And that scene when her great grandmother, Aisha sees her and thinks she’s her daughter, remember? She’s like, Oh, Sana, and come Allah says, I’m not Oh, my gosh, I even think, like, if I could go back in time and tell my ancestors, it’s going to be okay, we made it. You know, I just, I’m getting the feels, but we our ancestors, wildest dreams, and yeah, I just I don’t know if I answered your question. Uh, but I think they handled it very beautifully.

Josué Cardona 23:43
You answered it, you definitely answered the question.

Sophia Ansari 23:48
let me get my tissues.

Josué Cardona 23:50
yeah no for sure

Sophia Ansari 23:51
Yeah, this is a I tell you and so I’m like, you guys, you people need to watch this. You know, it’s more than just this coming of age superhero story. You know, so

Josué Cardona 24:02
yeah, it’s so interesting, because like Black Panther and Shang chi. Do a lot like they have fantastical origins. Right? Like, like, Wakanda isn’t, Wakanda is representative of I have ideas, but it’s not a real place. And in Shang chi, like, there is like it’s another dimension, right? Where a lot of this stuff is happening. And then this show is extremely grounded in that sense. And it’s also Sophia, you and I were texting the other day. This is the youngest protagonist in in, like, the MCU that like that, and we’re seeing their perspective, right there is nobody younger than than this

Lara Taylor 24:47
in the MCU. No, until we get like Moon girl.

Josué Cardona 24:52
Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah, that’ll be that’ll be younger. But even even who like even America wasn’t like she wasn’t The protagonist, and it wasn’t. I mean, I would argue with her movie, but you know, it wasn’t

Lara Taylor 25:04
it wasn’t her title

Josué Cardona 25:05
we didn’t get to learn. Yeah. And her and actually, she’s an immigrant from also another

Lara Taylor 25:10
dimension,

Josué Cardona 25:11
another dimension. Yeah, I guess technically, I guess, Kamala in this one is half other dimensional.

Lara Taylor 25:17
But she was born in this one.

Josué Cardona 25:19
True, true. True. I’m just I’m just saying that it still has an aspect of that I forgot that there’s still an aspect of that, that fantastical piece, but it’s way more grounded than all of these other stories. So in that way, it’s done a lot of things differently than, than other shows. And so I think one thing that’s really interesting to me, So, Marc, you said you haven’t read the comic books. So So and Sophia, right. But we’ll we’ll go back and forth on this right. I believe in the in the original in the in the origin story, right. She is just like in the show. She’s a super fan of, of Captain Marvel. But there’s this. The when she first gets her powers, right? Her her powers in the comic books are, she’s able to manipulate her body in different ways. So she can basically shape shift and stretch and do all these things. And so like when she loses control, she was she trying to hide who she was? Or did it just happen? Like spontaneously, Sophia? That she turns into Captain Marvel?

Sophia Ansari 26:30
Oh, yeah, I’m trying to remember.

Josué Cardona 26:32
I don’t remember

Sophia Ansari 26:33
Terrigen mist and then there was a cocoon. And yeah, I don’t remember.

Josué Cardona 26:38
Like the reason. Yeah. But she’s like such a superfan. She turns right, and there was this thing about this brown girl turning into a blonde woman.

Lara Taylor 26:45
She I think she was like, something had happened at school or something. I think she was embarrassed. And she like, wanted she she wanted to be someone else.

Josué Cardona 26:54
Exactly. Yeah, yes. Yes. Right. She’s like, Oh, like, she’s like, hide and then she like two turns into like this person that she idolizes a blonde white woman, right? Captain Marvel in the in the like, the dress type with a with, like, her old costume in the comics

Lara Taylor 27:08
when she was Miss Marvel

Josué Cardona 27:10
when she was Ms. Marvel. Exactly. And so they completely did away with that in in the show, which is so interesting, because I’m sure we’ve talked about it on this show. We’ve talked about like, the significance of that story. And again, framing it that way, right? It’s like, oh, like, I need to be accepted. So if I don’t know, like, being who I am is like, too difficult. That would be so much easier if I was blonde and white and pretty and skinny. And or, like, you know, pretty, you know, according to what people at school think and then being able to turn into that. And then realizing like, oh, that but that’s not me. Like that’s that we still have that story in the comic books. They don’t do anything with that here. Right? There’s still that aspect of like, oh, Carol Danvers is awesome. She’s my favorite superhero. I’m gonna cosplay as her. Right. But there’s no, that thing doesn’t happen. It doesn’t happen ever, either. I’m curious. I’m curious. How you all interpreted the ending, by the way.

Lara Taylor 28:11
I saw an article this morning about how it actually means that Kamala is in a in a lot of danger because they traded places and I had a conversation. I had a conversation with a client about it today, and we were debating the fact that she’s not wearing the bangle means that she didn’t turn in to Carol Danvers.

Josué Cardona 28:30
She didn’t transform

Lara Taylor 28:31
they traded places.

Josué Cardona 28:32
she never did it.

Lara Taylor 28:32
And when you think about it, she just got these powers like a week or two before and Carol Danvers is off like punching aliens and saving universes and if they trade in places, that could be bad.

Josué Cardona 28:44
So this is this the thing right? So they go and at no point is it ever shown that like, she needs to be like a Captain Marvel to be better like she is enough. She is amazing. As her right we don’t need any of that. I was like I was expecting her to change into Carol Danvers. I was expecting Carol Danvers to show up and save her at some point. And it never happened. Even the name right? We didn’t we the fact that we didn’t even have this I love this like this is this is the one thing right that I was waiting for was like, okay, then how is she going to end up being Ms. Marvel? Is she still going to be named after someone else? And they wrote around it. They did no in this version that has nothing to do with it. And that was amazing. So even at the end when I was like, oh, like even the fan service of having her transformed into into Carol Danvers. Really just so we can like get a glimpse of the actress on the show. The way they did it. I thought at first like oh, that she transform into her, but she didn’t. And I think I think it’s a good it’s like an Easter egg kind of thing, right where some people might be confused. Um, But it’s but it’s not right. And I think I think they show they give you everything that you need to know, to see that it’s, they’re not the same person. Because Because Carol is looking around, she’s like, I’m gonna superfans room like, this is not like what’s happening here. This is

Lara Taylor 30:16
where am I?

Josué Cardona 30:17
Yeah. And it is a cool way to set up the story in a way like the the movies that are coming afterwards, in a way that has like, they don’t know each other. How do we put them in a situation where they have to be in the same room? This is a cool way to do it.

Sophia Ansari 30:31
But like have theories though? Oh, yeah. You’ll also hero nation will be deep diving into this, by the way, because it requires like an entire episode.

Lara Taylor 30:40
you can hold some back so that people go listen.

Sophia Ansari 30:43
Okay. A little bit.

Josué Cardona 30:45
Breck is Breck is like a comic scholar.

Sophia Ansari 30:48
exactly

Josué Cardona 30:48
So this will be way better. It’ll be a very different conversation.

Sophia Ansari 30:53
It’s actually funny because I was on the phone with him. And he did not get that, that they traded places he thought she became and so I had to explain the exact same thing you said his way is? Why would she be surprised? Like she’s in her room? Like if that was Kamala she wouldn’t be like, you know, so? Yes, I do believe that they traded places, and there’s a lot of speculation on the Reddit boards. I’m very active. That the bangle is actually a Cree nega band. So if you’ve read, you know, and so and there’s even a line in the show, where Kamala is like, oh, because no one knows where Captain Marvel is, right? They’re like, Oh, she’s taken a much needed break. But the theory is, she’s in the Negative Zone. And so you know, read the old Captain Marvel Comics, Marvelle, and there’s the other Avengers, Rick Jones. They’re both tied to each other by these bands. And whenever Rick Jones like brings them together, they switch places. And then Rick Jones gets lost in the Negative Zone, which is this other dimension. And that happens in the marvel in the cap the original Captain Marvel Comics, I think that’s what’s going to happen in the next movie, is that we’re going to find Kamala wandering the the Negative Zone. And there’s also a really cool villain named Annihilus. Who I wonder if they’re going to introduce that because he’s like, Thanos level kind of villain too. So I feel this I feel that might be their sort of where they’re going to take the story. I don’t know. But I think so

Josué Cardona 32:24
I think you’d need Captain Marvel is so powerful. You need like, that kind of level of bad guy for her to Punch. Or, or the whole movie may be may just be her trying to get to Kamala.

Sophia Ansari 32:35
Yeah, I think so.

Lara Taylor 32:36
And her and Monica Rambeau.

Lara Taylor 32:39
Monica Rambeau Yeah.

Josué Cardona 32:41
Yeah. proton proton photon. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think I think it’s definitely a cree artifact, because in the flashback episode, when they removed the bangle, it was on a blue body and the cree.

Lara Taylor 32:55
yeah

Sophia Ansari 32:55
yeah i had that speculation too

Josué Cardona 32:55
Yeah. you nerds, so good Yeah, but but so but just the significance of the fact that they still did the fan service piece. And never, never, not once gave any credit, or like, they didn’t take anything away from Kamala’s story. By making it like that she was imitating or trying to be or anything like this right of another character. Like, this is a 100% origin story of her and her family. She just happens to be a huge nerd who, who really likes Captain Marvel, and the fact that her father says that her name, you know, could be interpreted as a marvel that just she just geeks out about the fact that that oh, that’s similar, right?

Lara Taylor 32:57
She’s like, ooh like Carol Freaking Danvers?!

Josué Cardona 33:12
Like Carol. Right? I wasn’t named after her.

Sophia Ansari 33:22
Right Right. Right, right.

Josué Cardona 33:26
This is cool. We have something in common, you have more in common than you realize you had no idea right? And you’re gonna notice that later. But that that’s that’s admiration, right? That is not, Hey, you’re the you’re like, a copy of, which so many characters are where it’s like, we have the original white version of the character and now we have you know, a person of color who has been using the same logo or inspired like, we’ve talked about this in both ways, right? Like Sure. Like the bat family awesome. Everybody’s like, inspired by him in different ways. Right but it’s like ah, but like can’t you just be your own like your own thing and and Kamala was and wasn’t right there was still like, it was such a big part of the of the story. But here this version, I don’t know if there was something like that was one of my favorite things about the show.

Sophia Ansari 34:50
No, I agree. I agree that just everything coming within her the power comes from with her and within her. The bangle is tied to her family. It’s all It’s all Kamala and in Funny story, but my, my son, he’s learning Arabic. And so whenever they had the title cards come up which I loved the art, by the way, the title cards, they would have some in Arabic. And he’d be like, oh, we need to pause it. So you’d pause it, and he would try to read it. And I feel like we’re like the first people to figure it out. But I know there’s other tik tokers out there. They’re like, Oh, I figure it out first, but I’m pretty sure my nine year old son figured it out. But when she had when she’s got her necklace, right? And she’s on the stairs. And so he’s like, cool necklace. What does it say? And she says, it says Kamala in Arabic. We pause that. And we noticed the K. So in Arabic, it’s calf, that’s k calf. It looks like a lightning bolt, right? And you’ve read an Urdu and Arabic you read from right to left. So we were like, Whoa, that looks like the lightning bolt. It’s not that jagged. Lightning Bolt, but it’s that smooth line, which ends up being on her costume.

Josué Cardona 35:59
So when it broke, so when it broke, we called it!

Sophia Ansari 36:03
see in this sometimes I’m like, Man, I really should do tik tok because, yeah, I figured we figured it out. We did buy another one. We did too. But yeah, all that came, I just loved how her costume. And all of that was just like this visual metaphor of her culture and her relationships. It’s all coming together. Right? Everyone gave her a piece of her. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 36:25
it kept building so yeah. And the, the, when her friend is like, oh is like, like, is that Pakistani? Like was that made in Pakistan? Or it’s a Pakistani thread. I was like, Look, I can appreciate that, right. It’s like, Oh, you are you are like, this is your culture, you are representing your people. That was that was like, again, it was like such a small moment. But that’s so good. You didn’t have to do that.

Sophia Ansari 36:52
Because I have like I get when whenever my parents go to Pakistan, I have like specific requests for what outfits I want. And every province in Pakistan has their own type of embroidery. So for her costume, if you look very closely, she has a specific embroidery that is connected to the Sindh Province, which is in Karachi, which is where her family is from. So I appreciated that and man like the tailors out there. There’s nothing like that around here. So I know what it means to get a nice tailored outfit in Pakistan. Yes. I appreciated it that.

Josué Cardona 37:31
thats cool. Yeah, no, that was

Lara Taylor 37:35
well, and her getting her the pieces of her costume over time. But then the fact that this is the conversation I ended up having with a client today, the fact that she is one of the few superheroes who have an intact family, she has our whole family, they’re all with her. And they support her in this way, like her mom makes her costume. Her dad gives her her name,

Josué Cardona 37:59
the scene where she’s telling them and they already know. And they’re like joking about it,

Lara Taylor 38:03
best scene ever

Sophia Ansari 38:05
I love that

Lara Taylor 38:06
oh such big news

Marc Cuiriz 38:07
I think that was honestly one of my most favorite parts of the entire series was just this whole sequence of like, you know, like her mom in the very beginning is like, totally against all these sorts of things. And just as the whole series just progresses, like, she comes around to it comes full circle. And then of course, she eventually, you know, makes or gets the costume made and then gives it to Kamala and then of course, like her dad has always kind of been there supportive. And then just kind of gives her the, you know, presents the title, the name for her basically. And just kind of like just seeing it all sort of like come full circle, like then like struggling with these relationship pieces. But then as it goes on, like, everything sort of gets reconnected and they have a greater appreciation understanding for each other. And it all sort of culminates in, in her outfit. And in just in who ms marvel is as a character, I think is is fantastic. And it’s it was one of my favorite parts of the whole thing. And I remember my wife was like, Ah, she got her costume from her mom in her name from her dad. And I was like, yes, because like her identity is all about, like, it’s everything

Lara Taylor 38:21
family

Marc Cuiriz 38:24
who she is. It’s everything that who she is and now that she has this confidence in her powers and who she is it’s because her family is now finally come together and they’ve whatever sort of strifes and like struggles that they had they were able to work through them and now they’re, you know, they’re, they’ve come in now they’re even closer together.

Josué Cardona 39:41
Superman has that too his mom made his costume.

Marc Cuiriz 39:46
Yeah, but

Josué Cardona 39:47
I’m saying

Marc Cuiriz 39:47
I don’t care

Josué Cardona 39:48
it’s like it’s like I’m saying it’s a it’s a it’s a cool thing.

Marc Cuiriz 39:52
It is it’s a really cool thing.

Josué Cardona 39:53
Wish my mom made me a cool costume

Marc Cuiriz 39:55
same.

Josué Cardona 39:58
I’m reminded Ah, like there’s all these moment. You see, this is definitely a coming of age story like she is she is growing and accepting different pieces. And after she gets the powers and she’s like, No, she comes to school that day, and she’s very confident. And she, she corrects someone about her name will tell you, it’s Kamala, right? It’s like, unlike the teacher, it’s like, I’ve never corrected you on the on the name. Little things like that are huge, like we did a full a full episode, Sophia recently called, My name is not an error. And I talked about all the different ways that names are just misspelled or like, any comes from the fact that like, constantly if I’ll write my name correctly, online, I’d say 50% of the time, I get a literal error message that says, you know, like, this is, this is not a real name you’re using this is not allowed. This is incorrect, like unauthorized characters

Lara Taylor 40:55
it turns into an ampersand if it does go through

Josué Cardona 40:58
it turns into an ampersand. It’s a it’s all this weird stuff. And also like, correcting people. And so like, at work, I have, like, I write it out. And I have a little button that pronounces it and like, I make a big deal out of it. But that is like that’s me a long time to get there. And and I know people who will like don’t won’t go through the trouble. So to see to see that on the show. Was Yeah, I was I was like, it’s like, when infinity war people are punching Thanos in the face. That’s how you know, that’s how powerful this was for me. Just Correct. Correct. Somebody else right now, please. keep Going they’re things that you don’t see. Usually. We haven’t. I don’t know. Remember this coming up. And in any of these shows. Or movies in Shang chi. They play with it a little bit. But how like, the friend doesn’t know Chinese as well. So like they play with the pronunciation. Like everybody knows how to say T’Challa like no problem. Nobody. Nobody ever stutters when they’re saying T’Challa, don’t even go there.

Sophia Ansari 42:06
Well, yeah, like this, a lot of this just sounds like like reclaiming. reclaiming your name. And I feel even in in the show, Muslims, we’re able to reclaim a lot of language that’s been weaponized against us. So for example, that the wedding scene with Aamir and Tyesha, and in our weddings, we say Takbir, which is Allahu Akbar, which means God is great. And in the media, it’s never used in a positive way. Right? It’s always like something some terrorist is about to say, or something when, you know. And then And then also, whenever you hear the call of prayer, in a movie or TV show, it’s usually this narrative that you’re somewhere really unsafe. Oh, somewhere, you know, and it was just beautifully done here. So all these really beautiful moments that are part of my faith that have been taken from us. I feel like we reclaimed it. Yeah, we reclaim that narrative in the show. So yeah, I love that you brought that up, because I just took that back.

Josué Cardona 43:06
Also, like so. I feel like the show didn’t shy away from any big conversation regarding this, right. It was, it was like it just anything that you could have. Yeah, it just addressed all the, you know, the things that you don’t usually talk about, including, I mean, and this isn’t specific to, you know, black and brown people, but like, Oh, we’re gonna shoot up a school. Right? It’s like, let’s point out the fact that this is messed up. Let’s point out the fact that you’re being racist. Let’s point out the fact that like, you are, like you’re at a mosque that’s like, all of these things right, that you’re doing that are terrible and happen all the time. Let’s bring them up and show and show them here. Like again, that was just like adding to the level of stuff that was like I can’t believe this is happening all of it

Sophia Ansari 44:01
Yeah, no, I totally get like the villains weren’t the clandestine the villains was a government agency that profiles people is damaged. You know, whenever she would walk in that mosque with her shoes on you. And I know even my non Muslim friends were like, how rude. Like something ain’t right. You’re not supposed to do that. Everyone knows that. So

Josué Cardona 44:23
I know I know enough to have laughed very, very, very hard. At the halal and haram jokes that with the hats. That was That was beautiful. Can you explain that to for people who may not know what those what those words mean, Sophia?

Sophia Ansari 44:42
Yeah. So first, those hats are a nice shout out to an actual NYC artists so you can actually buy those hats. I know a lot of people who have those hats so that was my brother has one maybe he has the Haram one. But basically, in Assam, Haram means forbidden and Halal means permissible, so I thought it was just even funny who wore the hats right because they had Bruno or was it Bruno was wearing the Haram and Kamran was wearing the halal so it’s almost like who she’s allowed to be with right haram and halal so that was yeah, that was hilarious. I there’s all these little little desi what you know South Asian we call ourselves they see all these little Desi like Easter eggs are inside jokes that I loved that it was just like art like we they were still her our little joke. There are jokes for us. And there were jokes for people who are not desi you know what I mean? So, I love that

Josué Cardona 45:37
desi stands for? it doesn’t stand for anything.

Sophia Ansari 45:40
it doesn’t stand for anything yeah. It just means South Asian, so anyone Pakistani, Indian, or Bangladesh, we just call ourselves desi so it’s D E S I. So, as a desi I can confirm that Illuminati these are real and they exist in every family and family, buddy, they see they here and they know everything about everyone. I always call them vigil-aunties. But now I’m going to call them Illumin-auntie.

Lara Taylor 46:11
Are they also on tik tok? Because the one that one Auntie was on tik tok

Josué Cardona 46:20
Sophia, but there was a joke where or not a joke, but like, it was it was more like her cousin when she was when she was in Karachi. Her cousin used an acronym. That’s for like, like people in the States. What was that?

Sophia Ansari 46:37
Yeah, that’s ABCD, which is American Born Confused Desi. And actually in Crazy Rich Asians, they use that to ABC, American Born Confused. And so it’s, you know, it’s like first generation kids second generation kids born here raised here who might not be so connected to their culture. Usually, it’s used by our cousins overseas who make fun of our accents. Because even when I speak in Urdu, or Punjabi, I have the American accent. And they’ll laugh at me, right? And they’ll call me an ABCD. But I am so not an ABCD. Because I am very, very in touch with my culture. I love my music. I watched the Bollywood movies, I cook the food. So just because of an accent, like I really resent all the bullying from my cousins. But yeah, you’ll get a lot of that that’s sort of a derogatory kind of thing against those of us who are just born and raised here. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 47:30
there’s a concept called Third Culture kids.

Sophia Ansari 47:32
Yes, yes,

Josué Cardona 47:33
which is about people who it’s just very general. Anyone who left home when they were younger, and then so wherever you live, that’s not your home. So people never accept you fully because you are not from there. And then when you whenever you return home, you’re also not seen as like part of there because you’re already too different. Like you have an accent. And or you just you know, you’re just culturally too different from there and then you feel like you don’t fit in, in either one. And so the that third culture is people who identify with that are like, I can’t go home. Because there they’ll make fun of me or like I just don’t fit in. I just don’t like it as much but then anywhere else I am I also don’t fit in because I’m not from there. So that’s a concept that was like super helpful for me to learn about when I was older. I didn’t I didn’t learn about it until much later.

Sophia Ansari 48:30
Yeah. Yeah, I love it. They didn’t explain all the cultural nuances.

Josué Cardona 48:34
Yes,

Sophia Ansari 48:35
the show. So

Josué Cardona 48:36
Bruno wasn’t there as our like, dumb friend who we need to explain everything to

Lara Taylor 48:43
they used show don’t tell. Right.

Josué Cardona 48:45
Like, I mean, he was he was so he was he’s a part of the family too. Right. Like, he was at the wedding. He he danced, right? Like he was. He loves the food, right? Like, he’s, he’s there. He’s just part of the family. There was nothing. And they never they also like, there wasn’t really any joking. Like, there wasn’t even like racial jokes about that. Right? Maybe the haram halal was like the closest one. Right? But like he was just family. And he was like, they love the fact that like he dressed up for the festival. And he was he was very respectful of the of the culture. I like that too.

Sophia Ansari 49:17
Yeah, I love that. And I love that. A lot of it like there was Urdu throughout and they didn’t close caption all that like they didn’t translate it. Yeah, so it just it just shows how the Desi culture wasn’t presented like it was exotic. It’s just a normal American girls reality that’s and they did that with the with Miles right and into the spider verse. Like they would use like Spanish and they didn’t translate it. It was just like a normal it was you know, so they didn’t so I love that they did that too. And also let’s talk about the aesthetic a little bit because the whole Scott Pilgrim vibe was so Oh, I just I hope they continue that I don’t know how they’ll do with the marvels. But I love

Josué Cardona 49:57
it’s her you it’s like it’s a unique style right? For the show has a visual identity. And it’s a fun one. And yeah, I like that. I like it a lot. It was, it was beautiful.

Lara Taylor 50:11
All the texts showing up in different ways in the world. It was amazing.

Josué Cardona 50:16
Yeah. And all the scenes where she’s like coming up with a plan and it’s being animated and oh my goodness

Lara Taylor 50:20
the chalkboard scene with the plan in the school was the best thing, I swear. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 50:26
Also, there’s this I mean, it doesn’t really come up later in the show. It’s only really at the beginning, but where they talk about her being like, like a daydreamer. Right. Like, like, it’s almost like, the, that fun way of showing text and the in the plan, and the aesthetic that we’re talking about. Like that’s, I think that’s her way of viewing the world. Right? Like she’s she she does see it differently, like she does. It’s more fun, you know, seeing it through her eyes. And, and I, I like that a lot.

Lara Taylor 51:00
And maybe she’s a daydreamer, but also the plan she came up with solid plan, like she’s a leader

Josué Cardona 51:07
a good strategist for sure.

Lara Taylor 51:10
Her, her school counselor is garbage and doesn’t know anything. I saw some some talk on the Geek Therapy discord about how, how horrible he is.

Josué Cardona 51:20
Yeah, one day,

Marc Cuiriz 51:23
plus I just want to point out that her artistic skill is like top notch because you have to think about that. She drew that entire plan in a matter of minutes, and you just think like, as they’re coming up with this plan, like they’re actively like gathering outside of the building. And I guarantee you that wasn’t no like two hour time for her to be able to draw this thing with, like a good level of detail to so like the fact that she was able to just quickly just did it. Alright, here we go. Here’s the plan, guys. I think it’s I don’t know, I think I think she’s onto something there.

Sophia Ansari 51:57
Yeah, it was like an ode to home alone. It was like the Kevin McAllister school of pranks

Marc Cuiriz 52:00
basically, yeah

Sophia Ansari 52:01
or something it was and then what the counselor Did you notice they have these little easter eggs all throughout all throughout? I have I don’t have a whole list that all the ones that I caught but his he’s G Wilson or his mug said GW W like the writer of Miss Marvel GW Wilson,

Josué Cardona 52:17
I didn’t know that I didn’t notice

Sophia Ansari 52:18
she makes a cameo. She makes it and then the creator of Miss Marvel Sana Amanat. She has her Stanley moment to where she makes a cameo at the in the wedding. So there’s all these little

Lara Taylor 52:31
who was willow Wilson, I’ve seen her person

Sophia Ansari 52:34
at the very end when they have all those tiktoks going off and they’re like, oh my gosh, did you see Miss Marvel? She’s the one that says she looks familiar.

Lara Taylor 52:43
I’m gonna watch that again. Yeah, Mm hmm. Yeah,

Sophia Ansari 52:47
we had all these little all these little even with the, like, even with the dad eating the fruit pies. Remember when he was That’s an old to just old comics. I even have one somewhere. They used to do these ads for those fruit pies randomly in the panels for like, Spider Man or whatever. So I actually I was like, Whoa, I know. I have like a really old one that’s like worth something. And they they Yeah, so it’s like, even small little things that as comic book nerds would appreciate. It was like a love letter to us. Right? So all these little things that I that I loved. So yeah. Oh, good.

Josué Cardona 53:23
Good. I want to I want to this tangential. But you mentioned, you know, you’re not an ABCD. Because, you know, like, you appreciate the culture. You’re you’re you’re you know, you’re down. And you mentioned watching Bollywood movies, and I watched RRR recently. Have any of you watched it on Netflix? Are you familiar with it, Sophia?

Sophia Ansari 53:48
No, I’m not.

Josué Cardona 53:50
It is. It is my favorite movie this year. It’s my favorite movie in a long time. Is a three hour epic. Bollywood film with the best it is the best live action anime I’ve ever seen in my life. It is. It is incredible. And I just want to bring it up because that movie is has is very popular right now. And again, it also it’s also a celebration. And like in this movie, they are literally fighting and murdering the British empire in India for having, you know, taken over and done horrible things. Like there’s a part where there’s just like, someone’s blood is like, all over like the British a sign that says like, you know, like, the British Empire will never die or something like that. It feels it’s like it’s a movie about revolution. But it also has a lot of song and dance numbers that are amazing and incredible. And the acting is amazing. And I don’t know it’s just, it’s it’s one of those things where it’s like, oh, we were seeing we’re getting a lot of good stuff in. And of course this movie. It’s in Hindi. It’s, it’s produced in India, right? It’s not. It’s not. It’s not an American product. But it’s, it’s catching on here. I sort of hope that all of these things together are kind of like how Korean culture has gotten like a resurgence over the over the last few years. Like Kpop is huge. And Kdramas are huge. And and all that squid game was like, the biggest the biggest thing on TV for a while, you know, like, are we having? Are we having a desi moment like that now? Does it does it feel that way at all Sophia?

Sophia Ansari 55:41
I mean, Bollywood is bigger than Hollywood, right? That’s

Josué Cardona 55:46
not here though, right?

Sophia Ansari 55:47
Yeah, yeah. So I mean, but I’ve always been sort of it like, that’s been my world. Like I didn’t, I didn’t I wasn’t a big fan of like Disney princesses and Disney movies growing up because I had Bollywood movies, and they would wear prettier dresses and spin and sing in the hills. Those were my princesses. But yeah, I mean, I guess Yeah, I can see it especially with with platforms like Netflix. Right, making it accessible to the masses, of course. Yeah, absolutely. I can see people saying, Oh, I’ve never watched a Bollywood movie. But even you know, my non Desi friends growing up. We all made them watch. Like the even the movies they mentioned in in the show where they’re like, right? Yeah, those are all movies like all my non Desi friends have watched and everybody knows who like Shahrukh Khan is like, you don’t even have to be they see everyone knows. So and I know, I know Josué you’ve watched movies, because we’ve told me like we’ve compared notes. So I love that you do that. So yeah, yeah

Josué Cardona 56:43
I bring up all the time that like yeah, like, as much as I like a lot of Western stuff. Sometimes I find it so basic and boring compared to as why I go. Like, I like to describe the things that happen in like, RRR for example. Right? But like, I’m sure I don’t know if I’ve talked about it here. But like there, there are some like Bollywood movies that are like superheroes, aliens. But they’re still musicals. They’re like too amazing. Like, it’s just, it’s so good. It’s so good. It really does feel like the Western stuff feels like so plain sometimes in comparison. So it’s like, reinvigorating, yeah.

Sophia Ansari 57:27
Yeah. Speaking of getting content out to people, Disney plus isn’t accessible in Pakistan, but the VP of inclusion, representation and inclusion strategies, she’s actually she’s Muslim, her name is Marya Bangee. And she fought for a limited theatrical release there. So they actually have it playing there for a limited time. Because she thought it was like so important,

Josué Cardona 57:54
like the all six episodes so like,

Sophia Ansari 57:56
yes, yes.

Josué Cardona 57:57
that’s one long.

Sophia Ansari 57:58
Yeah. I don’t know how.

Lara Taylor 57:59
six hours

Sophia Ansari 58:00
exactly I don’t know how.

Lara Taylor 58:05
Yeah, it’s a six hour CE course, right there.

Sophia Ansari 58:08
Exactly. But how cool is that? Right? Because she knew the importance of, of those girls in Pakistan watching it. Desi superhero. How important is that? So, I mean, it was so powerful, just like the whole kitchen scene, like the wedding when she’s fighting in her, like traditional clothing. You know, like, we call it shalwar kameez, so I’m like, Oh, she’s like kicking ass. in shalwar kameez. Like, those clothes are very comfortable. So I’m surprised not all superheroes wear those, you know, ditch the tights, and go with the shalwar kameez. But no, I love just that visual of seeing her kick butt and her traditional clothing and just thinking of all those boys and girls in Pakistan, watching the same thing, and saying, Hey, that’s me. I look like her. You know? So? Yeah, good stuff.

Josué Cardona 58:52
Yeah, I know, it’s, um, I’m, that makes me very happy. Actually, one of the first episodes of our Disney podcast was also about how Disney plus was not accessible to everyone. And, and in the context of that was actually very, very different. But just the idea that, like, disney made this funded it at the very least right, and it’s not, it’s not available in Pakistan, which, by the way, has as many people as the United States, it’s right. It has about 300 million people as well. Like, what? I mean, there’s something weird about that. So I like I love the story. The fact that like, now we got to put it there some somehow. In other countries, though, like when when some stuff is like exclusive on one platform here, like Netflix picks it up in other places. So I’m curious. Like if they’re, you know, what else? What are their options there might be? That’s interesting. Thank you for that. Is there is there any thing else that you would like to to cover Sophia about about the show or the character or its importance or just other, just geek out about any other parts of it.

Sophia Ansari 1:00:12
I mean, like I said, there’s so many, there’s so many easter eggs, and I’m gonna, I’m probably just gonna watch them again. Because apparently, there are QR codes and every single episode if you scan it, you get the comic book that’s related, the ODE or the shout out to that, you know, because if you look at the episode names, they’re all named after like the volumes like issues, crushed or no normal. And so when they introduce red, red dagger, for instance, there’s somewhere in that, like episode, there’s a QR code. And so then it links back to the comic book where he Kareem is first introduced, or, you know, Kamran on when he was first introduced. It goes, so yeah, so I’m gonna go back and look at those scenes. So that’s, that’s something fun for everyone to do.

Marc Cuiriz 1:00:58
You know, that’s actually so funny. Because I remember when you’re watching, my wife actually pointed those out. She was like, Hey, did you see that? There’s a QR code. And I was like, What are you talking about? I didn’t see it. And then like we and then we went back and she like,

Lara Taylo