The Falcon, The Winter Soldier, and The Therapist

#292: Lara, Josué, and Link talk about The Falcon and The Winter Soldier’s first few episodes, particularly about Bucky’s therapist. We wonder if HIPAA survived the blip, and if the therapist’s questionable methods are working in context.

Transcript

Josué Cardona 0:07
Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Link Keller,

Link Keller 0:17
what’s up gamers?

Josué Cardona 0:21
And Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:23
Hi,

Josué Cardona 0:25
it’s fine You don’t need you don’t need a catchphrase. Okay. You don’t need one

Lara Taylor 0:30
Link’s changes every week. It’s okay.

Josué Cardona 0:32
I don’t think so. I think that’s it. That’s the new catchphrase. Yeah,

Link Keller 0:36
I’m gonna zag on you. Keep y’all on your toes.

Josué Cardona 0:39
Oh, okay. All right. So this week, it’s Lara’s turn. So Lara, what are we talking about?

Lara Taylor 0:46
We’re talking about the Falcon and the winter soldier. Cuz that’s what is going on right now. In my life. Wow. That is, yep. It’s interesting. Everyone was so hyped for wandavision. And I do see a lot of chatter about Falcon and Winter Soldier right now. Mostly in our Facebook group. And a little bit on the discord. wandavision was more. I don’t know. There was a lot to unpack. But I’ve seen a lot of conversation, especially about the therapist on falcon and Winter Soldier?

Josué Cardona 1:26
Yeah, yeah.

Lara Taylor 1:28
Yeah. I don’t know how I feel about her. I don’t.

Josué Cardona 1:32
Oh, what does that mean? Like, what are you?

Lara Taylor 1:36
Like? Well, one, I like the actress but two, um, she’s she does some unethical stuff. But apparently it’s working. I don’t know. Is it working though? No, I don’t know.

Josué Cardona 1:48
Why, what is unethical?

Lara Taylor 1:51
Oh, let’s see. Let’s see. I don’t know a lot of people are upset in the first episode, she like uses her notebook as a and her writing things down because Bucky is going to court mandated therapy as part of his release, so she like threatens to write his resistance to treatment down to like, threaten him to comply with treatment. Like, oh, I’m gonna report you and I know, therapists that do that, but not in that flunky of a way, like clicking the pin and all of that. And apparently, that sets him off. And then in the second episode, she just straight up walks into like the waiting room at a jail and announces that she’s bucky’s therapist, and then says, Sam, you’re coming with me. And we’re gonna make this like couples therapy. Link’s face is priceless.

Josué Cardona 2:48
That one I understand. Yeah, that one. That one.

Lara Taylor 2:50
That one is that one really, really got me?

Josué Cardona 2:53
Yeah. What’s it there’s no HIPAA in MCU.

Lara Taylor 2:57
But it doesn’t HIPAA doesn’t matter. Even before HIPAA, we had confidentiality and privacy rules.

Josué Cardona 3:04
Yeah, yeah.

Link Keller 3:07
Also just like general ethical respect for other people’s human lives.

Josué Cardona 3:14
Yeah, yeah. Part of me wants to make a joke about not just normalizing therapy like that’s just normal in the MCU. Like, that’s just what happens like you and your therapist. just have it out in public.

Lara Taylor 3:28
you have it out in Public, but like, you know, you’re sometimes friend current, like, frienemy, right? Like they aren’t getting along. He can just get sucked into therapy without his consent. Like, literally, Sam didn’t want to go and she’s like, no, that’s, that’s not an option. You have to come. And he’s not even like the way they’re working the show. Right now. Bucky and Sam are outside of the military. Like she has no authority over this guy.

Josué Cardona 3:59
I don’t see him like Sam getting dragged in as like, therapy.

Lara Taylor 4:07
They literally sat in a soul gazing exercise, like a couple in the therapy room. Link, you have to watch the clip.

Link Keller 4:15
I guess I got I gotta watch this. Yes, I have no I have not seen these episodes yet. I was honestly I was waiting to hear from you guys. If it was, like wandavision worth giving some of my time to. Sounds like that’s gonna make me really mad. But

Lara Taylor 4:32
it might be but they’re all they’re addressing a lot of things. Yeah. Obviously I am not a person of color in this country right now. But they are also addressing being a veteran being a veteran of color. There’s a racial profiling scene. There’s dealings with the police in the military, it is all kinds of things, all kinds of things.

Josué Cardona 4:57
But this, this show, I if you like the MCU you got to watch it. It’s more MCU it’s not like the one it’s not like wandavision that was weird shit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Link Keller 5:10
i want weird shit.

Josué Cardona 5:11
I know. That’s the thing. So like, it’s hard for me to like, yeah, like, I don’t know, like, like, my mom was like, oh, is wandavision finally done? I want to watch it all, you know at one time like yeah, Mom, it’s done. And she was like I did not. I did not enjoy that. I don’t know if I’m gonna keep watching. I was like, Mom, it’s fine. Go watch falcon and Winter Soldier. It’ll give you your action, then you know, your MCU what you expect from the MCU I gave her the like, you gotta watch four episodes, you know, for the exposition thing in wandavision, and she’s like, Nah, I don’t got time for that. I’m old.

Lara Taylor 5:44
but really? It’s only two episodes when you count like the wandavision episodes are only half an hour. So I still

Josué Cardona 5:51
still still

Link Keller 5:54
but have to watch all eight minutes of credits. Otherwise you might miss something.

Lara Taylor 5:58
Yeah, spoiler alert. You don’t miss anything. Unless you skip the credits in the last couple of episodes.

Josué Cardona 6:05
I am Yeah, I mean, at least my mom watched all 21,000 movies you have to watch before

Lara Taylor 6:12
she’s gonna love Winter Soldier, Falcon and Winter Soldier. It’s gonna be great.

Josué Cardona 6:17
Oh, yeah, this is much more her thing. Yeah, so I don’t know if I would recommend Falcon, Falcon and Winter Soldier Link,

Lara Taylor 6:26
unless you want to watch a sam and Bucky? in there. I’ve seen a lot of talk in the queer community about it being very queer baity.

Link Keller 6:36
Do they smooch?

Lara Taylor 6:37
I haven’t seen smooches yet but they smash each other and in an action thing and then roll in a field and fall on top of each other Ala Attack of the Clones.

Link Keller 6:51
okay. alright.

Josué Cardona 6:52
Look after after. After listening to the queer comics podcast on the Geek Therapy network. I I I see subtext everywhere. I see queer subtext ever. I there’s nothing. Yeah. So is I see it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lara Taylor 7:10
And I’ve heard I have read. I can’t remember the name of the character. But Bucky, the MCU. Bucky. his backstory is based on a character in the in Marvel Comics, who is gay, who is and that’s the childhood best friend. Like the whole thing other than the name for Bucky Barnes is,

Josué Cardona 7:35
is not the bucky barnes from the comics?

Lara Taylor 7:38
not from the comics. And so I hope they make him gay. That would be really cool. I would love for him to be gay.

Josué Cardona 7:49
I think my favorite joke from the second episode was, it sounds like oh, you spent some time in Wakanda and now You’re the white Panther? He’s like, I’m the White Wolf. Actually, he’s like wait what? they call them the white wolf

Lara Taylor 8:06
then they’re like, White Wolf. Like when did that thing happen?

Josué Cardona 8:09
That’s one of those things. He’s one of my favorite moments because it’s it’s like a deep cut. You got to like have remembered details about It’s why I like it. I’m enjoying it. I’m the the therapy stuff. Yeah, I don’t, I don’t see Sam getting dragged in as therapy. Even.

Lara Taylor 8:29
But they she literally like them. That is the most emotion you get from Bucky, in therapy in the like, one minute of scene that we get a therapy in the two episodes. But like

Link Keller 8:43
it’s when the two boys stare deeply into each other’s eyes while breathing,

Lara Taylor 8:46
basically, like with their legs, like, here’s one set of legs, and then the other legs are in between and they get close.

Link Keller 8:54
that’s nice.

Josué Cardona 8:56
They do make a comment about it being like, probation kind of thing. Right? Like they make a couple comments about that. And, and

Lara Taylor 9:05
but that doesn’t mean Sam has to be there.

Josué Cardona 9:07
No, no, I know that. That’s That’s what I’m saying. Yeah, like, I don’t think Sam being there is like, therapy. It’s like, I don’t know that every time I brought in a teacher or a parent into the therapeutic process during a session. It’s, I wouldn’t consider that therapy. It was a weird moment. It was a weird moment, But it was fun. It was very fun. It was watching early.

Lara Taylor 9:34
She literally said that. These are techniques she uses with couples.

Josué Cardona 9:39
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I think ultimately she’s trying to help.

Lara Taylor 9:46
I think I think she is trying to help. I think she cares.

Josué Cardona 9:49
Yeah, yeah. And her. I like her and I liked her style, and I cried it too. But of course I like I’m an I studied RBT Albert Albert Ellis Institute right like

Lara Taylor 10:03
he was one of the questions that was coming up in Facebook and on the discord is what kind of therapist Do you think she is? And a lot of people on Facebook were weighing in that it was RBT.

Josué Cardona 10:14
There you go. There you go. Yeah, but they’re probably saying that because Albert Ellis has always considered an asshole.

Lara Taylor 10:20
I watched his videos in school, he is an asshole.

Josué Cardona 10:24
He’s not he’s not an asshole.

Lara Taylor 10:26
He’s when you get that little clip video. It doesn’t encompass him as a person. He looks like an asshole compared to Rogers,

Josué Cardona 10:35
not it’s a different style. Again, it’s a different style. Sometimes,

Link Keller 10:41
sometimes a little bit of asshole is needed and needed and necessary and beneficial.

Josué Cardona 10:49
The problem is that, that that it’s like

Link Keller 10:50
just gotta be in the right location, you know?

Josué Cardona 10:54
You’ve got it, right. Like part of it is calling people out, right? You’re calling people out and you’re, you’re you’re calling people out on their bullshit, right? That’s the RBT The problem is that that that one clip with the I forgot her name. That video that they always show in like, psych 101. It’s like, where she

Lara Taylor 11:14
sees like three different therapists or four different therapists. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 11:18
Gloria, is it Gloria?

Lara Taylor 11:19
Yeah. It’s Gloria.

Josué Cardona 11:21
Like that situation. He’s calling her out on her bullshit about her sister’s death. So it comes across as very, very not sympathetic as holy it comes off asshole ish. And so that’s why Yeah, but

Lara Taylor 11:36
I’m gonna be fair to be fair, all those all those different therapists in those videos. I wouldn’t want to see any of them.

Link Keller 11:45
Yeah, and also just in like, even in the best kinds of therapy for whoever individual, like taking a single exchange out of context. From therapy can it could be like, He really said that. That’s so fucked up. It’s like, No, no, contextually. It was very good.

Josué Cardona 12:04
Yeah. Like, sometimes it is fucked up, though. There are some fucked up therapists out there.

Link Keller 12:08
Absolutely true.

Josué Cardona 12:10
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I don’t know how representative it is or how much people would identify their experience seeing a therapist or being a therapist with these scenes. I especially

Lara Taylor 12:26
some some conversation about, like, it being wish fulfillment, being able to just tell off your clients you’re not doing the work so Fuck you.

Josué Cardona 12:38
thought like, wish, again, that was my training, right? Like, my training was literally like that, like one of the one of the strategies that that I learned in practice, and I believe executed very well. I think if you brought something up, I was like, Oh, really? Like, I didn’t say like, prove it. But I’d be like, Oh, so like, you’d be like, oh, there’s so many I mean, Oh, really? How many? Like a like, like, like, 20? Or like, Oh, damn, yeah. Like, Can I see it? Like, can we see the thing? Right? Because people tend to catastrophize and exaggerate. So it’s like,

Lara Taylor 13:14
you want the evidence? You want the receipts? Okay. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 13:17
yeah. So again, it’s like, I don’t know if that’s so much what wish fulfillment to call people out on their on their shit. It’s, um, and especially in her case, she knows like, she knows him very well. So she’s calling him on. They were coming into this.

Lara Taylor 13:31
She’s a veteran herself. She serves. They say she was in the military. So

Josué Cardona 13:37
yes, yes. But but I don’t. I don’t think that bucky’s experience. It can be metaphorically like serving in the military. But his experience is very, he’s like 100 years old.

Lara Taylor 13:49
he has brainwashing,

Josué Cardona 13:50
he’s like, they joke about him being a cyborg and right. It’s like, he’s, he’s not like, there’s a lot of things there. He was Captain America’s best friend. He’s a super soldier. Like, there’s an assassin. programmed, right. Like

Lara Taylor 14:03
he killed a whole lot of people.

Josué Cardona 14:05
Yeah, Stark’s parents, right? Like, there’s all these things. But she knows his story. She knows a lot of information about him. And so she’s able to call him out because she, I mean, she knows he’s lying. And she because like, she’s read his record, you know, it’s like, it’s like, like working with a kid at a school. Like, I read your record kid. Like, I know what your grades are. I know what classes you’re in. So I’ll play along a little bit. Right. But there are key moments where you’re like, I know, I know, I know that. It’s not true that you know, I can see your record. I can know it. You know, I have all this information. That’s definitely a part of this exchange, and they seem to get along, right. Like they seem to have this kind of rapport, where they are. Yeah. Again, he’s like, I don’t want to talk and she and the way we’re gonna talk Yeah.

Lara Taylor 15:00
Yeah, I guess she has these rules for him, which I mean the way he’s been brainwashed I think having that structure and those set rules

Josué Cardona 15:10
the rules thing is very strange.

Lara Taylor 15:14
I think so too

Josué Cardona 15:16
aren’t the rules, I did not prepare for this

Lara Taylor 15:18
one of the rules the second rule, because that’s the one that was clarified is don’t hurt anyone.

Josué Cardona 15:23
Yeah, but isn’t one of them, like don’t kill anybody? Or what is that is I’m not right.

Link Keller 15:27
What what are these rules?

Lara Taylor 15:30
she has 3 rules for Bucky?

Josué Cardona 15:35
no no It’s more it’s more like I think it’s kind of unclear. It’s not like she’s forcing rules upon him. It’s like these are

Lara Taylor 15:44
they created them together? Probably.

Josué Cardona 15:46
Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, remember, like, these three guidelines will help you avoid a relapse or problems in the future, right? What are they in the like, they review them. But one of them is like, don’t kill people, right? It’s like, because he’s an assassin. And he like he can really hurt people. And it’s, it’s interesting how much the therapy component kind of, it’s not a long scene. They’re not long scenes in either episode. But they again, it’s probably just because it’s us that like, we’re hung up on that particular thing we haven’t mentioned, like, the jumping out of planes and all the other stuff that’s happened. That happens in the like hour long episodes. But but they do frame a big part of the of the show is how so far is how Bucky and Sam are dealing with the loss of Captain America. It’s not as direct or or as much of a focus as in wandavision as a grief and loss and wandavision.

Lara Taylor 16:54
Right. There’s some other things in it. There’s a lot of Bucky. Bucky is dealing with guilt, his guilt and his past catching up with him. And Sam is dealing with family things and trying to save the family business. And

Josué Cardona 17:13
it’s a slice of life. It’s

Lara Taylor 17:16
it really is it really we thought wandavision was gonna be that?

Josué Cardona 17:20
Yeah, yeah. It wasn’t. This is much more like it. Yeah. Yeah,

Lara Taylor 17:27
um, the three rules for Bucky, his rules are? Where did it go? It was just there. So rule one is, don’t do anything illegal. Two is nobody gets hurt. Okay. And three is, I am no longer the soldier he has to state I am no longer the winter soldier. I’m James Bucky Barnes, and you’re part of my efforts to make amends. Gotcha.

Josué Cardona 17:51
I will not kill someone is not one of the rules.

Lara Taylor 17:54
No, gotcha. Just no one gets hurt. No. That’s even broader. I think a lot of people got hurt when he when he was fighting on the top of that truck.

Josué Cardona 18:08
seems that there was a lot of them.

Lara Taylor 18:10
There’s a lot of things

Josué Cardona 18:11
a lot of violence it’s a mcu show.

Lara Taylor 18:14
Yeah, yeah.

Josué Cardona 18:16
So you shared a Tiktok. With with Link,

Lara Taylor 18:20
I shared a tik tok with Link.

Josué Cardona 18:24
Did that give any context to the to

Link Keller 18:27
a little. it was I like that tiktoker. She’s very funny.

Lara Taylor 18:32
She’s hilarious.

Link Keller 18:34
And I enjoyed hearing her, you know, yell about content that I don’t have any context for. But I don’t know that it necessarily clarified anything about the show to me, but it did clarify some of the conversations about the therapist specifically that people are having.

Lara Taylor 18:52
She also had a tik tok that was like trigger warning for black people for the entire series. Like she’s like, the whole thing is going to be triggering. Yeah. And she her whole thing was wandavision was torturing her because of like, and torturing her in like a retraumatization grief and loss kind of thing. And now this show is going to be doing the same as a veteran and a person of color. So she’s like trigger warning for all black people.

Link Keller 19:25
Yeah. Yeah, I am. I’m always interested because I think that there’s there’s a lot of space to do something really interesting and explore the relationship between how a white super soldier is treated compared to a black super soldier. But from what you guys are talking about, they’re sort of covering a whole bunch of different topics. And I worry that that doesn’t give enough space to actually go deep with anything. And when you do a whole bunch of stuff shallowly like that can still be good and beneficial, but it can also like really undermine efforts to, like, encourage people to actually, you know, get help with real life problems.

Lara Taylor 20:13
Well, funny story, the entire second episode is about how white super soldiers get treated differently than black super soldiers.

Josué Cardona 20:23
The whole episode is not about that. That happens.

Lara Taylor 20:25
yes it is

Josué Cardona 20:26
it’s No, it’s not. I disagree strongly.

Lara Taylor 20:29
The whole thing.

Josué Cardona 20:30
There was a scene,

Lara Taylor 20:32
there’s a scene and then there’s a scene and maybe not the whole thing. But like, that was one of the main things I wanted to cover. The first, if you look at what they talked about, in the first episode, having Sam give up the shield, and then have it given to a white man.

Josué Cardona 20:52
But

Lara Taylor 20:52
that it’s a theme that’s going to come up in the show.

Josué Cardona 20:57
Yeah, but but i think i think Link is right. There. This is, I mean, it’s not about any of those things. Right? It’s this isn’t this is an action adventure series that’s touching on a whole bunch of other things. And it’s not the main focus of it. Like I think what made wandavision special is that it explored, spent a lot of

Lara Taylor 21:18
time.

Josué Cardona 21:19
Well, I mean, person, the whole Yeah, I

Link Keller 21:22
would I would give it like the first Yeah, the first two thirds were really focused on talking about grief.

Lara Taylor 21:28
And then we had explosions.

Link Keller 21:30
And then and then they were like, Oh, right. It’s people come for the magic, and we got to give it to them. and I didn’t hate it. So it’s good. It’s good. I’m okay with that percentage.

Josué Cardona 21:42
Yeah, it did more of it than any other. Anything else in the MCU. so far? And, and yeah, no, this this show so far. Again, two episodes in, is exploring, right. A lot of things. So so many things,

Lara Taylor 21:58
right. I think their focus on this show is more. Like wandavision does continue the story, but it was like this, like insulated bubble.

Josué Cardona 22:19
it’s just one person’s story

Lara Taylor 22:10
Right? This is supposed to like, help, let’s see what happened post Blip. And the way that the world is changing, too, all of a sudden people are back and lives have changed after five years. And I mean, there are all kinds of jokes about like, like you said, HIPAA doesn’t exist after the blip, right? Like,

Josué Cardona 22:38
thats not a real thing that happens. But uh, but

Lara Taylor 22:41
no, but it’s a Josué joke. Yeah, yeah. And I’ve seen that on on the Facebook group on Geek Therapy, Facebook, or to like, oh, there’s no HIPAA effort of the blip or like, maybe maybe all the all the licensed therapists were part of the were the people that got blipped, and only one was left and all their licenses expired, except for this therapist within the show.

Josué Cardona 23:05
So one idea, one idea that they’re exploring, and they’re just starting to explore, and I hope they go deeper into it. Because that would be really interesting. is the idea that a lot of people who were in power, like, now rarely, like, like people who have money, you know, it’s almost they don’t say this, but it’s almost like, a lot of government people like Bezos disappeared, right? After five years. And things were better. Because of that, because all of these people, like, I mean, and in many ways, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s the fun argument. It’s a fun discussion about about the snap. Right? It’s like, was Thanos right?? Right, though? You know, right.

Lara Taylor 23:48
And so the whole the whole, the enemies in this on the bad guys, quote, unquote, are people that are saying, one world one people,

Josué Cardona 23:59
because, yeah, yeah, they’re saying like, Yeah, but that’s what I’m saying. They haven’t explored it in detail. But what they’re, what they’re fighting for, is that what they’ve said so far, is that during those five years, a lot of problems disappeared. And the

Lara Taylor 24:13
no borders, no wars,

Josué Cardona 24:16
and the moment that everybody came back, we went back to the system that we had before. Right.

Link Keller 24:22
gross

Josué Cardona 24:22
And, and, and yeah, and it’s like, we’ve already lived, we did a better version, right? It’s like, you know, it’s like, it’s like, let’s try socialism for five years. And then they were like, No, no, no, let’s go back to capitalism. And then people are like, Can we, you know, there’s a group that’s like,

Lara Taylor 24:37
like, that’s not the world we’re in now bro

Link Keller 24:42
we innovated. And I would like to keep the better version. Thank you.

Josué Cardona 24:47
Yeah. So that’s what that group is fighting and they’re presented as

Link Keller 24:50
they’re bad guys?

Josué Cardona 24:52
They’re they’re antagonists.

Lara Taylor 24:53
They’re antagonists. They’re not they’re

Josué Cardona 24:55
obviously they’re, they’re they’re presented as terrorists because you know, it’s because it’s MCU

Lara Taylor 24:59
they’re stealing

Link Keller 25:00
are they russian?

Lara Taylor 25:00
they’re stealing? uhh no

Josué Cardona 25:04
they’re Sokovian and

Link Keller 25:06
you had to think about it? oh my god.

Lara Taylor 25:09
Well, you don’t hear them. You don’t hear them speak much

Link Keller 25:13
are they coded to be vaguely communist-y?

Lara Taylor 25:15
She is a British accent.

Link Keller 25:17
They got a little sprinkle of the red stuff on them?

Lara Taylor 25:20
There are black masks with a red hand imprint on the face.

Link Keller 25:26
hoo, boy. okay, all right.

Lara Taylor 25:28
Yeah.

Josué Cardona 25:29
Yeah. Again, it’s it’s it’s the MCU giving people what they want, right? You can’t go too far. That’s why I said I don’t think I’d recommend it is but it’s got some interesting things. But but

Lara Taylor 25:41
you can you can watch some scenes will recommend some scenes for you.

Link Keller 25:48
Just put together a super cut of all of the just vaguely, vaguely queer scenes. Are they gonna? Are they gonna hold hands? Oh? and only those scenes.

Lara Taylor 26:00
I’ve got two scenes on my mind for you Right now. So

Josué Cardona 26:04
there’s a lot of those scenes. Yeah. Also, they don’t go deep enough into anything. Not even not even that. Not just another thing that happened? Yeah. No,

Link Keller 26:14
yeah I mean, that’s what I’m talking about, is like, I don’t think that’s an inherently bad idea to try and have that kind of show. I just, it doesn’t work out a lot of times. And it’s disappointing. So that is my concern

Josué Cardona 26:29
it’s not their intention. I think it only doesn’t work out if it’s their intention, and they fail. I don’t think your intention. I don’t think they’re trying at all to do anything good in the world. I don’t think they’re just trying to be funny. They’re trying to add points. Yeah.

Lara Taylor 26:42
Have explosions and two dude’s beating up on other dudes.

Josué Cardona 26:48
Yeah, even even the therapist in the first episode, right? It’s like, oh, we’re exploring a lot of bucky’s trauma. And it’s great that he’s got a therapist. And yeah, the second episode, it’s like, he gets arrested. like. It’s like in front of everybody like therapy now. Okay, yeah. Doesn’t feel as good anymore. What’s your what you’re doing here? Yeah.

Lara Taylor 27:16
Well, and him getting arrested in the like, racial profiling thing. And he’s the good white guy. That’s like, Do you know who this man is? Do you know who this man is?

Josué Cardona 27:26
No. Do you feel I mean, you use the word therapy before? Do you feel? It feels more.

Lara Taylor 27:37
And this is us only being two episodes in. And we have no idea what is going to happen in the next I think this is a six episode one?

Josué Cardona 27:44
Yeah. Not only two episodes, but like, six minutes total of therapist screen time.

Lara Taylor 27:51
of What, like 100 minutes? I think they’re 50 minutes each.

Josué Cardona 27:58
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But But I’m curious if you. How do you feel about that in general, like, Link, the week you couldn’t be here a couple weeks ago, we talked about Superman and lois show and how right off the bat, it started talking about mental health. And like, brought up a specific disorder. They talked about medication and things like that we talked about, like whether or not we’d see more of that if we’d see actual, actual therapy or treatment. And we haven’t seen any of that in that show. And that shows like five episodes in, I think at this point, and but they have explored, I think I think they’ve they’ve done an interesting job of exploring mental health issues from the perspective of the of the adolescents in particular. And, and, yeah, and like, that’s one way to do it. And then here, it’s like, oh, let’s go into the therapy room. Right. Like, look, the therapists like zoom in and like, do jokes about notes, and and things like that. I’m just like, any thoughts on the contrast? Or the

Link Keller 29:09
are you asking me?

Josué Cardona 29:11
I was I was I was asking, Lara, because

Link Keller 29:16
you started Yeah, you started with me? And I was like, I haven’t seen either of these. I can’t. I can’t compare and contrast them. One’s about superman!?

Lara Taylor 29:25
I always

Josué Cardona 29:26
i don’t usually mix you guys up. But lately,

Lara Taylor 29:28
yeah. You Yeah. I get you were talking to me. You mentioned Link when you weren’t here. And then but

Link Keller 29:38
i follow now

Lara Taylor 29:39
I get it. Um, I always get excited, even if it’s a bad portrayal of a therapist when it gets brought in because it starts us having these conversations like it got that post someone asking about the therapist, and the Facebook group got more comments than pretty much anything else and people are debating whether she’s A good therapist, a bad therapist? What kind of therapy does she do? Oh, people are saying, right, exactly. There’s been multiple posts that spawned another post that someone was like the Falcon and Winter Soldier has me thinking about representations of therapy therapists in media, and what are some good ones? And what are some bad ones? And like, what makes them good or bad?

Josué Cardona 30:24
We’ve done that episode we’ve done four or five times. Yes, is Yeah. I wasn’t sure if that’s what this was gonna be.

Lara Taylor 30:32
It might be but it’s a good, like, it’s good that it’s sparking the conversation.

Josué Cardona 30:36
Absolutely.

Lara Taylor 30:37
Yeah. especially among therapists. I think that’s important to like, recognizing that not everyone sees and views therapy the same way you do.

Josué Cardona 30:46
Yeah. I remember told, told you the story of I was an intern, and I was shadowing somebody. So we we go often, where we meet with a family, I was doing in home therapy, where we’re like, we’re already in the person’s home. And the person like said a joke. And I laughed at the joke. And then the person who was shadowing when we left. She said, You laughed at the clients joke. And I was like, yeah, and she was like, and you told them where you are from? Like, yeah, I felt like it would build rapport since like, they were hispanic too, you know, like, the, and and, and then she was very surprised. And then like, she started saying, oh, like, I, I trained in like, a psychoanalytic school, right? It’s like, it’s like, Oh, right. Yeah, no, that’s totally different than then what I’m doing. And, and it’s, it’s always, it was so frustrating to go. So I think a lot of, unfortunately, a lot in mental health. And I know a lot of fields, like you go to school, you just learn that General, like, they just give you the bare minimum to get out. And you don’t go deep into any particular specialization or theory or anything like that.

Lara Taylor 32:08
And they don’t even tell you necessarily to go do that after.

Josué Cardona 32:11
Well, but they don’t. And also, very few schools do that. And the ones that do like they don’t, they’re not going to spend enough time, like you might have to take a couple extra courses to like, meet a requirement. But that’s it. But then so like, I was part of a professional organization, and I wanted to mentor and mentee program and my mentor had gone to, you know, studied RBT and, and we talked about and I was like, sounds good to me. So then I went and like I trained there. And then I was never able to have a supervisor who also did RBT until I never had it sucked to like conceptualize things from completely different perspectives. That’s, that’s, it’s not great, right, that you can, like, Am I am i doing it? Right? Is this the best way to do it? Um, and it was in the clashing was really bad when it was like, like, you’re doing it wrong. I’m like, I’m not doing it wrong. I’m doing it differently than what you learned. Right? I was not i was i was a very obnoxious student and supervisee. I’m like, No, like, it’s just different, right? Like we’re doing things can be there’s the advantage, right? Like later in your career, once you once you actually know what you’re doing. And being able to talk to somebody who does it from another perspective is very, can be very helpful, because then you can look at a situation from from different perspectives. And that’s cool. That’s beneficial. So So yes, I love that Falcon in the Winter Soldier, one of the most popular shows on TV right now, is sparking those conversations among even within just the, you know, people in mental health, about the different experiences that you’ve had as either a client or or, or a practitioner. I’m all for that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves instead of media we care about, it’s fantastic. It’s great. It’s great. It’s, it’s it warms my heart to know, to know that and, and, yeah, I mean, again, they’re not gonna show up. He’s not gonna go to another therapist, and we’re not going to compare like anything because that’s a no,

Lara Taylor 34:23
it’s not gonna be like atypical where he tries out different therapists or even this is us where we see different therapists, right? Yeah, he’s gonna stick with his court mandated therapist, and she’s gonna do what she’s gonna do, whether you agree with it, and think it’s good assholery, or you think it’s bad assholery.

Josué Cardona 34:45
This makes me think, link to some of the things you were saying before about like, oh, hopefully, it’ll, it’ll do some things right. Have you have you ever watched the show? Either this is going this is going to both of you Have you ever watched the show that really tried to focus on mental health treatment or delivery? And And specifically, right, like regarding mental health treatment or our process that went deep enough to have like a, there was just a significant focus.

Lara Taylor 35:22
I want to say I am very removed from watching the show, but I think we had a lot of conversations about the fosters, and how I thought they got a lot of things right about the foster care system and how kids are treated in that system and how mental health is approached in the foster care system. I think that’s the closest I’ve gotten to. Like,

Josué Cardona 35:48
they gave it they gave it time

Lara Taylor 35:51
and, and that’s something where the system can be different for different kids. It can be different for different therapists, different states, different counties, whatever. But that is the closest thing I’ve seen to like, what a group home is like, what? Yeah, I think that’s the closest thing I’ve seen. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 36:16
what about you Link, I’m sure come to mind.

Link Keller 36:21
Yes, a show does come to mind.

Josué Cardona 36:23
are you just googling shows that

Link Keller 36:25
I was just making sure I wasn’t misnaming It is called shrink. It was on seeso rest in peace. I don’t know if you can even watch it anywhere now. But it was a very funny comedy show. About a

Josué Cardona 36:42
oh is that the one with Lisa? The one from friends?

Lara Taylor 36:48
Lisa cudrow?

Josué Cardona 36:49
Yeah. Is that is that the one with her?

Link Keller 36:52
No?

Josué Cardona 36:53
which ones that one? I’m sorry, keep going

Link Keller 36:55
this is with Tim baltz is playing the main character. Um, anyways, he he is graduating medical school, he thinks that he’s getting a residency in a nice place. And then that falls through and he has nowhere to go. So he decides to start offering psychotherapy as a way to get his hours. And in that way, it’s a terrible, it is not good. Not good examples of therapy. But they do frame it as he is a beginner. He doesn’t know what he’s doing. He’s making a lot of mistakes. And he goes to his supervisor, his therapist, and she is fantastic. And she straight up les tells them like you can’t do that dog. It was very funny. It’s definitely not. In some ways, it’s a very apt example of how therapy goes in that it is often very weird. And the people that you encounter have very, like weird situations. And that therapists often are just flying by the seat of their pants. And they’re real people too, and are often like, yeah, I work a second job. And then I run into my clients at that second job and I have to Don’t be weird. And that kind of stuff is so yeah, I really that came out in 2017. I really liked that show. I thought it was a fun way to explore some aspects of therapy, even if they weren’t all super truthful, or exemplary of what we would like therapy to actually be. But overall positive.

Lara Taylor 38:15
I think that’s a good. Like, that’s a different take like, right, it’s a new therapist, I think

Link Keller 38:55
it’s also intended to be comedy. So it’s like they can really lean into that aspect of like not doing the most fucked up stuff that absolutely comes up in therapy. You know, like, he’s, I don’t think he talks to veterans at any point about PTSD and stuff like that. So it’s like, there are serious things that they discussed, but they keep it more on the lighter side.

Lara Taylor 39:16
Right, right. It reminds me of a book that I picked up, called therapy is awkward. Therapy is awkward. I think it’s actually sometimes therapy is awkward. It has been really helpful in this year of being isolated as a therapist, like working from home, my colleagues are harder to get ahold of all of that I get consultation, but like things happen out of that in between the consultation that I can’t really talk about with other people. And that imposter syndrome sits in and this therapist brings up the point in her book about when we read about the greats and we see those videos The gloria videos or whatever and we see thing like we are seeing and reading about the accomplishments, the greatest things that these therapists have ever done. They’re like, major breakthrough moments,

Link Keller 40:11
the curated stuff,

Lara Taylor 40:13
the curated stuff. We don’t read about or see the 1000s of times they said the wrong fucking thing before that.

Link Keller 40:21
yup

Lara Taylor 40:22
And I’m like, that’s great. I thank you for saying that. Because and she wants to normalize like, we don’t always get it, right. We don’t always get it, right.

Link Keller 40:33
I’ve always personally preferred in the handful of therapists I’ve interacted with across my life. I definitely prefer the therapists who you know, in the introductory therapy session are like, I don’t know everything. I don’t expect to know everything. We are doing this as a team. I am supporting you. Not we’re gonna do everything I say. I’m like, thank you. I prefer that direction.

Lara Taylor 41:01
So that’s a good Now, I want to watch that show.

Josué Cardona 41:06
Yeah. The one where

Link Keller 41:09
i told you about it like when it came out? I feel like both of you

Josué Cardona 41:13
who had seeso?

Link Keller 41:14
nobody had seeso and now seeso is dead now, like I said, I don’t even know if you can find it online now. That’s sad. rest in peace

Josué Cardona 41:24
availability,

Link Keller 41:25
lots of good shows

Josué Cardona 41:26
Okay. 2018, all eight episodes were made available to watch in the United States on the NBC website.

Link Keller 41:31
Hey, there you go

Josué Cardona 41:33
maybe it’s on peacock. Now, maybe the one or the one by lisa cudrow that I was thinking of. Here’s the synopsis of Fiona Wallace is a therapist who has conceived a new modality of therapy, the titular web therapy. In her estimation, the traditional 50 minute hour version of therapy gives people too much leeway to talk about irrelevant things. By dramatically shortening session time, she hopes to get results more quickly. Her sessions take place via webcam over the internet using Skype. This was in 2008. Yeah. Yeah. A dark time.

Lara Taylor 42:06
I wanna Know how long her I want to I want to know how long her sessions are.

Josué Cardona 42:11
There’s 113 episodes of this show.

Link Keller 42:14
Wow.

Josué Cardona 42:15
Yes.

Lara Taylor 42:15
cuz its a web series, right?

Josué Cardona 42:17
Yeah, yeah. I only ever saw like a few clips. I don’t even remember. I think that they’re like, a short episodes, but I’m here. Yeah. Yeah. I, so that’s also a comedy. And,

Lara Taylor 42:35
I mean, we don’t need no dramas.

Josué Cardona 42:38
Well, you know, drama. So so what what I’m thinking is like, like, crazy ex girlfriend. Right. And that, that that explored it pretty well.

Lara Taylor 42:44
that therapist was actually really good.

Link Keller 42:47
both the therapist and psychiatrist, were both very cool.

Josué Cardona 42:50
Yeah, like, as much as I want. And I appreciate a really realistic representation of the process. I would be cool to see like a super therapist as like, good advertisement for the field. You know,

Link Keller 43:07
it would be nice if there was more positive representation. Yes.

Lara Taylor 43:12
I would love like to see the sanctuary from the DC stuff show up in like, you know, the arrow verse or whatever, in a good way. Uh,

Josué Cardona 43:27
I’m thinking, no, no, I’m just, I’m sorry. I’m just like, I’ve been thinking a lot about like AI, therapy and stuff, and how bad it is and how far we are from it. And sanctuary. Yeah, that would be that one is, um, yeah, that’d be cool.

Lara Taylor 43:42
But I would also like to see someone in the Facebook group suggested, I want to see a show about super therapists, like, I want to see a show about like a therapist, the Avengers, right?

Josué Cardona 43:53
Yeah, yeah. But one of the first things that I ever like, this was early on, like, maybe a year into Geek Therapy. I was invited by a website to write basically, like, stuff like that, like, who would you? Like if you were Superman’s therapist, right, like anything, come up with a scenario and do things like that? I never did it. It ended up I’ve, and I think I’ve had more clarity on why that makes me feel uncomfortable now, and I chose not to do it, but other other people do do different versions of that. I think Janina Scarlet has videos on YouTube. We have a blog, on the Geek Therapy network. That’s heroes, ACE, which talks about adverse childhood experiences, and in every post, he looks at a character and it’s not like oh, I’m doing therapy for that. It’s like here’s let’s take a look at identifying adverse childhood experiences from like, a characters life with there’s a few of them, right it’s like, if things if these things would have been different like maybe like, according to you know, like, ACE theories, right like this is this this may have been a moment that was like, impactful. And maybe maybe, you know, these are key places where we could have done something different. There isn’t there isn’t? Yeah, I don’t. I’d like to. I’d like to explore that idea a little. Um, I do I do. I do like it. I do. Like, I do like it when a character gets help, like, that’s why I love sanctuary. That’s why I liked you know, Andrea Letamendi, in the, in the batgirl comics, the idea that these people are going there and then and then getting help, right? It’s like, it’s positive. It’s key moments. You only see the insightful, you know, perfect moments where it’s like, those Aha, epiphanies, you know, like, oh, like, wisdom, you know, like you took you took the client. Exactly what they needed, you know, to get to the, to the next step, and they got better. I like that. But yeah, but it’s not either. Have you ever seen in treatment on HBO? No, that is the only show that I know that. It’s the most accurate, I don’t know if accurate is the right word. It tries to represent the experience in a way that even the order of the episodes, the the entire show happens over the course of four weeks. And every episode is week, one Monday, we we one Tuesday. And then he sees the same client each day. So you see the first client and then you see the Tuesday client, the Wednesday client, that there’s a client. And then on Fridays, he goes to see his own therapist. And like, and, and

Lara Taylor 46:40
this is like, my life.

Josué Cardona 46:43
Yeah, exactly. Right. It matches up. And, and I, I love that because then you got to see, and it was basically like you were in a session. It was still it was still the drama, like it was it was it was based on Is it the American version is the only one I saw and it was based off of and I think it was an Israeli show originally. And I think there’s different versions in different countries. But I really appreciated that. But then still in that first season, they had the attitude like they couldn’t help themselves. They have the trope of the client falling in love with the therapist. That was like, I think I think she was Wednesday or Thursday. I don’t remember.

Lara Taylor 47:26
I really hope that Bucky does not fall in love with his therapist, and he falls in love with Sam.

Link Keller 47:31
Yeah me too, Fingers crossed.

Josué Cardona 47:34
It’s Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But but in treatment is one where, where I really appreciated the exploration and it was given time and attention. And, and yeah, I think that shows really good. I think that’s really, really good. And, and yeah, and it’s great in the way that like, you could really disagree with what he’s saying. Because it’s actually there’s a conversation going back and forth. And you’re seeing that the the choices that therapist is making, and yeah, that’s, uh, I mean, I’ve even gone to like workshops where like, we went through episodes of of in treatment, it’s, it’s pretty cool. Yeah. But again, like comparing something like that, it’s hard. It I’m glad that I’m even though I can’t stop. I thought a lot about the therapists from Falcon and winter soldier, I still tried to enjoy it as like, this is like a fantastical version of therapy. And it’s hard to Yeah, it’s hard to like separate. Again, because it how much of a representation is it? Is it supposed to be a representation? Or is that a plot device? You know, like, Is it just something there for and so

Lara Taylor 48:48
and some people in some people in their, in the conversations I’ve seen got really upset like it, like shut them off for the whole scene for me. I was like, well, that’s not right. But they’re gonna go do it. So they go and have their little couple session and I thought those were some of the funniest moments. Also some of the like, you get to see Bucky get emotional, and not just like shut down. or angry.

Josué Cardona 49:16
Yeah, but it but it is representation, right. It’s like you’re being represented and and I can understand how that would be. Just like, just like if it were representing anything else, and you have any piece of your identity that’s like, oh, why, why they have to do that. It’s hard to separate it. It turns out like something is like, Oh, that’s some homophobic shit. But it’s also funny or like, Oh, that’s really racist, but it’s my favorite show. So you know, it’s like, it’s hard to get to that point. And so we don’t see therapist as often on on TV, and especially not, again, that first episode, it feels like Oh, right. Like she’s doing, maybe, you know, but I think I think she’s helping him and the second one, it’s like off like, yeah,

Lara Taylor 49:57
and then the second one is when he has more of a breakthrough. Then Then the first one, right?

Josué Cardona 50:02
Yeah, yeah. Which, which, I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s also a fun conversation where, thankfully, we no longer just see therapy in shows where somebody is laying on a couch in the opposite direction. And the person is, you know, writing down notes. we’ve, we’ve talked a lot about, like, again, like I mentioned, in home therapy, in school therapy, you know, you worked in a group home, right, like we’ve had these clients like, Oh, I took my client to see a movie in a theater. Right?

Lara Taylor 50:35
i took a client to a baseball game.

Josué Cardona 50:36
And then you bill for that, right? Like, it’s part of the process, right? Like, like it’s approved by Medicaid. It’s part of like, there are categories that are codes, like therapy, the whole therapeutic processes. So there’s so many different pieces to it. That isn’t just the therapy session. Right, which is why that’s kind of where I was coming from with my comment. The beginning was like, everything that happened there. I don’t think it was therapy, right. It’s like it’s part of a bigger process as part of, it’s just, she’s taking care of him. And in that moment, it’s like, no, this is what we’re doing. Right? It felt much more like two kids misbehaving at a school talking to the school counselor. Right? And like, Yeah, everybody knows that. That’s the school counselor. We all see the same school counselor. So having the school counselor be like, in my office now. Isn’t. Doesn’t seem so weird, right. But But I understand it’s like, oh, that’s a therapist. Like,

Lara Taylor 51:31
because it’s like he does. She introduced like, Hey, I’m bucky’s therapist, he doesn’t see the same therapist. Even Sam doesn’t know who she is. She introduced herself.

Josué Cardona 51:41
Again, at all ethics and legalities aside. I like the normalization.

Lara Taylor 51:47
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Josué Cardona 51:49
We don’t know that Bucky didn’t sign some sort of consent. The that clearly said, you can you can come out in public, you can introduce yourself as my therapist. I don’t. Yeah. You don’t know what Avengers consent forms look like for treatment? We don’t know. How would you know,

Lara Taylor 52:07
especially after they’ve been blipped away?

Josué Cardona 52:11
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, these are fun conversations. Yeah. Yeah. And again, I’m glad I’m glad you brought this up. Because I saw that, you know, when, when those questions are coming up in the Facebook group, and, and in the discord. its good stuff.

Lara Taylor 52:27
So do you think I don’t know? Do you think she’s doing RBT therapy? Some people were like, totally Gestalt. And I’m like,

Josué Cardona 52:36
I mean, I’m not I mean, I haven’t training in Gestalt. So I don’t,

Lara Taylor 52:40
I don’t have training either. He’s also one of the guys that was in that gloria’s set of videos.

Link Keller 52:47
Yeah, I’m gonna guess that probably the writers didn’t spend that much time thinking about it. So she’s definitely the the hot buffet style therapist where whichever fits the best for this scene is the type of therapy I will be providing. sorry. more representation!

Josué Cardona 53:13
Sometimes these things are just,

Lara Taylor 53:15
I mean, half the therapist, more than half the therapists in the country say they’re eclectic. So

Josué Cardona 53:21
don’t get me started. That’s another

Link Keller 53:23
The rules are made up.

Josué Cardona 53:26
The often things like this come up, right? And it’s like, oh, like, where’d you get the idea? Like, wow, you know, like, Did you do any research? It’s like, No, I just recreated a therapy session that I was in writing. It’s like, it’s like, I’m just, I’m just gonna, I’m just writing my therapist. And yeah, it doesn’t seem. Again, I think they had good rapport. I think, I think the jokes about like, oh, you’re gonna write notes. It’s like, you don’t want to talk. I’m gonna write notes. It’s fine. I’ll talk you know, it’s like, I get it really does feel like I see myself. It feels RBT ish. She didn’t go like specifically she didn’t use the language. You know, it might be it. I don’t, I don’t know.

Lara Taylor 54:09
But it was that like,

Josué Cardona 54:10
there was an empty chair. That’s as much as I know about gestalt style. So

Lara Taylor 54:13
yeah, exactly. There was I don’t see any parts work, you know. Yeah.

Josué Cardona 54:17
Yeah. But, but your question was exactly what again, I know, I was in the middle of answering I don’t

Lara Taylor 54:24
know, I was just saying Do you

Josué Cardona 54:26
think it was a RBT? therapists? Yeah. Yeah, I get I relate to the, the character and the experience. And I see it, it’s very, it reminds me a lot of working with younger clients in non traditional settings, and

Lara Taylor 54:44
especially clients that do not want to be there. Especially clients

Josué Cardona 54:47
that don’t want to be there because that’s kind of it right there. It is. The court mandated like I hated doing court mandated 30 Yeah, I hate it. I hate it. being put in the position where I’m supposed to help somebody who doesn’t want to be helped. That is frustrating. I, I don’t feel that way about Bucky. I feel like I feel like Bucky absolutely wants to get better. He’s just like, obviously, in those moments he doesn’t. He’s He’s like, annoyed by the process. You know, it’s very much like, I want to do it. But tomorrow afternoon, like right now I’m kind of annoyed. And I’m thinking about, he just needs

Lara Taylor 55:30
to go back to wakanda he was so Zen in wakanda

Josué Cardona 55:34
he looks so happy. Yeah, yeah, there it

Lara Taylor 55:40
he will be the White Wolf.

Josué Cardona 55:41
Yeah. And honestly, to be completely honest, he seems that now that I think about it, I think therapy’s working for him.

Lara Taylor 55:53
Like he’s the last time we saw him other than Wakanda. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 55:56
no but, like he’s like, he’s he’s looking out for Sam. And he’s in he’s asking him about, like, how do you feel about this thing? Right. Like, I think, yeah, he’s upset, but he assumes that Sam is upset about it, too. And the things that he says to Sam aren’t, they don’t seem super irrational or anything like that, you know, he and

Lara Taylor 56:15
he’s met. He’s got friends in the neighborhood. And he’s trying to, like, make amends with people. for the horrible things. He’s done.

Josué Cardona 56:23
Yeah. It seems to me like he’s doing great. Like between Wakanda and the therapist, they’re really helping him out. And he just has like a particular like, his personality is very, you know, cold, but they the fact that he’s come I think that he’s concerned about the fact I know the way he shows it is he’s like, why did you do that? Why did you upset like, the the show is saying that Bucky is upset that Sam did not honor Captain America his wishes, right Steve’s wishes regarding the you know, at the end of infinity war Link when the Captain America is there and gives and gives the shield to to to Sam at the end. This is you saw the movie so I’m just a no end game as at the end of endgame you saw you saw endgame is at the end of your night. So I’m just I’m just refreshing your memory so that this makes sense. end of that movie when old Captain America is there. He gives his shield to to Sam to the Falcon. And he’s like, like, it’s not mine. And he’s like, it is it’s yours. Right? He wants he wants him to pick up the mantle of Captain America. So when the show starts, Sam doesn’t want to do that. And so he’s just donates it to a museum because he thinks he’s not deserving of the of the shield. And so he doesn’t want to do it. And and then Bucky is upset because he’s like, my best friend believed in you and wanted you to do it. And and you didn’t do it. And

Lara Taylor 57:56
and if you believe if he was wrong about you, then he was wrong about me.

Josué Cardona 58:01
Right, right. That’s a deeper a deeper stuff that he’s dealing with. Again, he’s dealing with a lot of guilt and a lot of he’s very,

Link Keller 58:09
maybe they should both be in therapy.

Josué Cardona 58:11
No, they definitely should be definitely should be.

Lara Taylor 58:13
That was that was the thing that was that came out of that session. That was like, that was the moment, the breakthrough moment.

Link Keller 58:20
Okay.

Josué Cardona 58:21
Yeah. But But again, I think, sure that that’s part of it. But I think a part of it is also like, the why, like what’s going on, right? Like, let’s that we have this thing in common, we have this thing that’s really important to us. Why did you do this? I’m trying to understand it. Maybe I can help you. And that’s like, I think that’s why he takes him to see you know, to see Isaiah and all these other things. I don’t know. I’m, I’m liking it. I think I think Bucky is doing okay, I think the therapist is working. I think again, if you if you think of them as kids and and just non traditional settings. I don’t think it’s that strange. Yeah. And as an RBT therapist, it you know, it doesn’t seem too strange, either. Other than the things that are you know, obviously violating confidentiality, and then you know, the things that are like,

Link Keller 59:12
well, fi