Wandavision: Grief and Perseverance

#289: We chat about Wandavision, and how many of our predictions were correct! We touch on grief and perseverance as the central focus of the show and how it succeeded (and missed the mark) in its execution.

Transcript

Josué Cardona 0:07
Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network here at Geek Therapy. We believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media. We care about my name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Link Keller.

Link Keller 0:17
what’s up?

Josué Cardona 0:18
And Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:20
Hey.

Josué Cardona 0:22
A few weeks ago, we talked about Wanda, grief and loss. Tonight, we’re talking about Wandavision, grief and perseverance. We finally finished watching the day. I mean, just like everybody else, apparently, it’s been very popular wandavision.

Lara Taylor 0:40
Very popular. And yeah, who thought it was really weird at the beginning.

Josué Cardona 0:45
Also, also very popular for us an episode, like a lot of people found us because of that episode, a lot of people googled wandavision and, and, and we popped up.

Lara Taylor 0:55
I just, I was just gonna say I just want to bring up that we were right. About most thingswe said

Josué Cardona 1:01
yeah, so So welcome to Episode 289.

Link Keller 1:06
We were right.

Josué Cardona 1:09
I mean, to be fair,

Link Keller 1:10
great episode everyone.

Josué Cardona 1:12
Yeah, to be fair, we, we speculated all over the place. So we couldn’t not be right, because we pretty much covered every possibility. The only way that we could have been wrong is if it was all a dream, and nobody guessed that. So it was so we did good we did good. We weren’t we were some of us. Were right. Some of us were more right than others. It doesn’t matter who it was. You can go back and listen, it’s fine. But I think I think that was a lot of fun. After the first four episodes, there’s definitely something going on there. At least we were all correct. And that there was definitely it was wanda dealing with her with her grief. And now that the show is over, and yeah, we got to the end. So yeah, so this will be full of spoilers. So if you haven’t seen the show, and don’t care to, be sure to stick around. But if you want to see the show, and you haven’t yet, save us for later, you know the drill. So yeah, wandavision ended. And we were right about a lot of things. A lot of grief going on. But there were there was, yeah, I mean, yeah. Either of you can start with whatever whatever you wherever you want to go. There’s a lot to cover.

Link Keller 2:28
Well, I want to start by saying I was very much on the train of Wanda’s story being about grief, and dealing with grief. But after the finale, I think it really has less to do with her grief over losing vision and more to do about her general life trauma, and dealing with trauma. Obviously, visions death was traumatic. So that still fits in there. But I think the way that they wrap the show up was less to do with grief and acceptance of loss and more to do with really coming to understand how all of these series of traumatic events in her life fed into each other up to the point that she created this magical world to escape from it.

Lara Taylor 3:21
Interesting, interesting, because I would argue

Link Keller 3:23
that’s where I’m gonna start us off,

Lara Taylor 3:25
you’re going to start off, I would argue that a lot. There are other traumas in her life, but most of her traumas deal with the death of a family member, both of her parents, her brother, her brother, and then her life and she’s literally alone. So

Josué Cardona 3:45
there’s, there’s something that happens in episode eight, I think it was. That’s the one that explained everything and showed everything from before. And they show her going. She says that she’s going to retrieve visions body. And I believe her like she’s like, he’s like, you can’t have the body. Right. The Hayward is like, Well, you can’t have it. You can you can see his dismembered body right there. But you can’t you can’t have it and then she’s so angry that she but she’s telling him like, I don’t want to bring him back to life. And he’s like, I think you want to try to bring him back. And she’s like, that’s not what I want to do. Like, I want to try to, like I just I just want to bury him. And and I don’t know,

Lara Taylor 4:39
he’s like no, no, bring bring him back. Bring him back so I can use him.

Josué Cardona 4:44
Yeah, maybe maybe. Yeah, that could that could that could have been it actually. Yeah.

Lara Taylor 4:48
I’ve seen I’ve seen a lot of commentary about how that’s

Josué Cardona 4:50
exactly what’s happening. Okay. Okay,

Lara Taylor 4:53
because that’s what he was trying to do the whole time was bringing him back.

Josué Cardona 4:55
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, that makes sense that he was manipulating her but I feel She was, she was ready at that point to, to go through that process of laying him to rest. Right. And, and again, like she had already at that point she had already accepted that she couldn’t bring him back to life. Right. Like, I don’t think she was even trying. And then maybe when Hayward was manipulating her, she got get close. And she’s like, I can’t, like I can’t feel him there. like, I don’t, I don’t feel you, I think is what she said when she touches the body. And then, and then she then she gets upset, and then she can’t like proceed with this with the with just the grieving of going through the ritual of grief that she wanted to. That was taken from her. Um, although she’s super powerful, she could have just like, murdered everybody there. But again, like at that point, I think she was still she was good enough that like, she was like, I’m not gonna do this. And then like the sorrow of when she went to the house and started thinking of everything that could have been that couldn’t be, that’s when she she like exploded and created this entire world, including creating a version of vision. Which, which I think, I don’t know, in episode eight is where there’s a quote, where vision tells her What is grief, if not love persevering? That’s been like shared all over the place.

Lara Taylor 6:27
Beautiful line. When Nina and I watched the finale, and Wanda says, I think it was she says, You are my love. And Nina said, it is a missed opportunity that she didn’t say, You are my love persevering.

Josué Cardona 6:44
I think it’s implied. I think it’s implied. That’s it. That’s what I’m getting at.

Lara Taylor 6:47
But it would have been a good call back.

Josué Cardona 6:49
I’m just saying doesn’t have to be. So on the nose. Some people need it on the nose.

Link Keller 6:54
it feels very on the nose to me, but

Josué Cardona 6:56
already, right

Link Keller 6:57
already.

Josué Cardona 6:58
So So he says, So vision vision says, You know what, what am I and she says you vision are the peace of the mind stone that lives in me. You are a body of wires and blood and bone that I created. You are my sadness and my hope. But mostly You are my love. And then he says, have been a voice with no body, a body, but not human. And now a body. Oh, no, and now a memory made real. Who knows what might be next. And, And to me, that’s where like, the show makes a lot of sense. But it’s like, you have all these feelings and they change over time, right? Like you’re experiencing these things, and they can at one point, it’s horrible. But then it’s like, it’d be they change and you change, right? It’s like, it’s like, how do you it’s this whole process. And I think it’s really interesting, talking about him, and even him reflecting on all of these different versions of himself. And, you know, who knows what he’ll be in the future. Next time that that he comes up, and I think it’s like, Okay, so this love was this, like, the love with between her and the vision started. During that moment of trauma, right, like when she was already when she was grieving the loss of her brother. She was watching Malcolm in the Middle, right? for comfort. And, and then she found comfort in vision, right? And then vision went from like, helping her deal with that grief, to being her love. And then he died. And, you know, she felt all these things and he became these different things for her. And, and finally, at the end she accepted like she’s got she’s kind of got to stop what she’s doing. Because at this point, she’s hurting people, but just like there’s a lot of stuff. I think there’s so many different ways to to see and to and to not just relate but but like just yeah, there’s there’s a lot of different feelings and versions of things going on. So I think Yeah, she did deal with a lot of trauma and I mean we were right last time when we’re talking about like, these TV shows where comfort for her right and somehow like she kept and we see that she when her parents died she just watched TV for was like three days or something right? Yeah, right. And and she was just and that was it. So I was thinking about like if maybe that would have spoiled it for her because it was so connected to this horrible moment.

Link Keller 9:45
that’s what I was thinking is like how did this like I feel like it would have been her love for it that she shared with her parents would have been like extremely diminished by the fact that that event was Like, really, really fucked up. And instead of being like, now when I hear, you know, the theme song, come on All I can, you know, imagine is like the smell of burning concrete, and like the blood puddle of my mother seeping across the floor, you know, just thinking about the nice stuff. I’m like, Wahh, that was a little much to me.

Lara Taylor 10:21
But sometimes we take the experience the other way. And no two people grieve in the same way.

Link Keller 10:27
Yeah. obviously

Lara Taylor 10:28
And there are things that so after, after my dad died, or after my dad died, after my mom died, my dad wouldn’t sit on the couch where she died. For the rest of the time, we had the couch, which was probably two or three years and I never noticed. I didn’t, that’s not the same experience, but like, my mom was a smoker. And that led to her dying. And I still, I don’t have it, but I know that it’s in the house, and I can find it. My mom’s cigarette case. And I can count the number of cigarettes there. And for some reason that is comforting to me, because she always had it. It was a part of her that was always there. Even though ultimately that is what killed her.

Josué Cardona 11:16
Did you ever view it differently? Did you ever did you ever, like hate the case or whatnot presented?

Lara Taylor 11:23
No. I don’t I for the longest time I and I wouldn’t date anyone who smoked. I don’t want to be like I want to be around people that smoke cigarettes. It makes me sick. But her case was her case. Right? Yeah.

Josué Cardona 11:41
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think there’s there’s a weird thing about the whole magic part of the of the show. But it seemed like she, what do they call it a probability hex? Yeah. Right. Which, right, which made it so that everything I mean, technically, like, the power didn’t go out, or like that thing kept having power, not just the TV. It kept running, the bomb didn’t explode, right? Like she created, she was able to create this situation where, within as horrible as it was, and she was a kid at the time. The only like, the only thing again, and this was seem to have been unconscious, but she created this moment where her and her brother were just watching TV until they were rescued. And and so even at that moment, right, she It was so I feel like for her it was so it was so meaningful, right? That even the horrors of losing your parents, and I mean, just the explosion, and everything happening right in that moment, wasn’t enough to or she chose not that she chose. But she found comfort in that when there was nothing else to find comfort or safety in at all.

Lara Taylor 13:01
If if the TV hadn’t been there for her and her brother to watch, all they would have heard is the bomb, ticking and going for for two or three days,

Josué Cardona 13:11
people dying. And there was there was a war zone right where they were like, yeah,

Lara Taylor 13:18
so yeah, it’s been a good distraction from

Josué Cardona 13:21
Yeah, yeah. But But I thought the same thing. I was like, How can she still go to these? Like, why would even in that moment? In that moment, when she transformed everything and made everything she went to, I mean, she can recreated the van dyke show, right, which was the show, it’s almost like she went to the first like, to the most comforting thing, which was, which seem to be that. But then but you know, we see that over the years, she still found kind of comfort in, in television, because you know, we see her again watching this case, Malcolm in the Middle after her brother dies.

Lara Taylor 14:00
And when we also see her watching what the Brady Bunch

Josué Cardona 14:06
Oh, was that too?

Lara Taylor 14:08
That was when she was at the Hydra.

Josué Cardona 14:11
Oh, right. Right. Right when she was in the south. Yeah.

Lara Taylor 14:14
Yeah. Yeah, that was all she had to entertain herself.

Josué Cardona 14:17
Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, it’s like, again, another moment where you’re just like, it’s not a fun place to be doesn’t look very comfortable. She didn’t seem very happy. But she still she was able to find something as I’m in, in many ways in escape. But still, comforting. There’s there’s eventually, right whenever we’re talking about Geek Therapy, whenever we’re talking about using media in some kind of helpful or therapeutic way, someone always comes up and is like, Oh, well, you know, how much is too much. And you know, what about escapism? It’s like, escapism is not up. It’s not bad, like you need to take a break. It’s fine to find Things that can take you away from these these things that are overwhelming and too difficult. Like anything you can you can find yourself escaping what you’re if you’re really escaping for like, if you escape forever, and you don’t come back, that’s that’s where it starts to become a problem. But having something that you can go to we talk about that all the time. And I know I liked it that they showed that right that that was it was something for so many people, you know that she maybe, she may be super powerful. She may be the Scarlet Witch and there’s a chapter about her in the darkhold and all this stuff. But still.

Lara Taylor 15:37
She’s a person that watches TV

Josué Cardona 15:39
sitcoms make her, help her,

Link Keller 15:43
how they have sort of framed it is that like, that’s kind of all she has, is just watching TV and then being tortured. Like the two things that happened in her life consistently.

Josué Cardona 16:00
While she while she had her parents, she had her brother, she had vision. Mm hmm. And then, but she lost those things, right. But like, those were things that she had. Those things were not consistent. But they were it was she

Link Keller 16:15
had she had her family. And then her family was watching Dick Van Dyke, and then bad thing happens. All right, I can follow that later in your life. Another bad thing happens. And the thought process is I need some sort of stability and comfort and a safe space to just exist for a fucking moment. And having that be like, okay, dick Van Dyke was like the last time I felt that way was right before the big bad. First thing happened. Like I follow that. But then just being like, literally any time she’s has like, free time, it seems like it’s the perfect opportunity to absorb some more sitcom information. I don’t know, I just feel like I feel like for me, I would I would want to get away from that stuff. I understand why for Wanda, it works that way. And it does make sense within what they’ve showed in the show, but part of me is just like get get another hobby baby, like read a book. like, Come on.

Josué Cardona 17:28
We’re all we’re all. We are all filling in gaps,

Lara Taylor 17:33
time gaps,

Josué Cardona 17:34
time gaps in an imaginary and a fictional characters story that we don’t

Lara Taylor 17:40
read not just small time gaps. We’re talking decades.

Josué Cardona 17:44
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, at some point, she did join a terrorist organization. And then she joined because she thought I mean,

Link Keller 17:50
at some point, she was watching TV there, too.

Josué Cardona 17:53
Yeah. And then she became an Avenger. And she was, and she was training to be a hero. And like, she still has, I’d say she still has pretty interesting hobbies.

Lara Taylor 18:05
And and I don’t know, but as like, after my mom died, all I wanted to do was watch TV, it is the least active thing that you have to do.

Link Keller 18:17
Yeah!

Lara Taylor 18:17
that you can consume. Like, you can passively sit there and absorb what is there in front of you. You don’t have to or nor not absorb it? Yeah, you don’t have to, if you should read the book, you have to actually have the thinking and your eyes moving across the page and absorbing the words and interpreting the words and all of that. TV is not active. So yeah, I could see why she would want to vege in her room at Avengers campus and just watch malcolm in the middle. Because it’s what’s on TV.

Link Keller 18:52
I think it’s pretty appalling that the Avengers didn’t have any sort of grief counseling setup. Like, are you for reals?

Lara Taylor 19:02
I mean, all of them are pretty traumatized. And

Link Keller 19:06
they all need some freaking counseling.

Josué Cardona 19:09
Again, we’re filling in gaps in a fictional story. I don’t know. That’s true.

Lara Taylor 19:15
That’s true. When we’re talking about we see her. We see her the night that her parents die, right. And they’ve, for years, they’ve been watching these shows and she’s had a full life up until then she’s What? Me being ten-ish?

Link Keller 19:31
Yeah, she looks like nine or 10 to me.

Lara Taylor 19:34
Yeah, so that’s years of good family times. It seems like they enjoy watching the shows together and learning how to speak speak English without an accent and I don’t know there’s we are filling in these these gaps like that’s it almost a decade of her life. And then we see probably another decade. We don’t know what’s happened. Other than She was part of a terrorist organization

Link Keller 20:02
with her brother.

Josué Cardona 20:02
If I was assuming I was the therapist at Avengers headquarters, right? I wouldn’t have told her not to watch television. I would have asked her what what helps you? What has helped you cope in the past? What is something that helps you? Either calm down or something that brings you some kind of joy? Something that, you know, can you reframe? Like, can you revisit happy memories with your family? To make you feel better versus not? If I would have prescribed TV?

Lara Taylor 20:39
What about the TV makes it comforting what you enjoy about it? I I’ve seen a lot of therapists throwing around in the Facebook group. Things like trying to build your own, what would your TV shows be if you were Wanda? Right? And I think that’s a really cool activity.

Link Keller 20:59
Yeah,

Josué Cardona 20:59
yeah. I. So in every, whenever I teach and read about Geek Therapy theory, I talk about like, affinity, right, this first component, like the first thing that you want to identify, so like, I don’t, I don’t know. According to Geek Therapy theory, you would not necessarily choose TV, it’s just like, it’s just the thing that you that makes you feel better. It’s like, it’s more that you identify that, oh, that’s the thing that that made me feel good and didn’t hurt anybody. And, and I enjoyed and and was helpful to me.

Lara Taylor 21:39
says like, well, she’s she even says on her own that, like, by the end of the show, everything is better.

Josué Cardona 21:47
Yep. Which is something we talked about last time, right? And the idea that these shows always Yeah, there’s no, there’s very rarely I mean, you know, more recent case,

Lara Taylor 21:57
occasionally you get a two part

Josué Cardona 21:59
one. Yeah, or a very special episode and things like that. Right. But usually, usually things turn out okay. And and she said that, right? Like, there’s, she seems to find comfort in that and knowing that everything’s gonna be alright, in the end, you know, or, or was it? The father in malcolm in the middle, he falls, and visions like, oh, man hurt, she’s like, no, it’s not gonna get hurt, because there’s a sitcom like, this is just not what happens here. He’s not going to get hurt, it’s it. I can see why she might want to create a world where people don’t actually get hurt.

Link Keller 22:33
You know, there’s something I just thought about is that a lot of sitcoms, in general, older sitcoms that are referenced in wandavision. A lot of those shows don’t ever really get into death and loss and grief, or if they do, it’s very small. So I wonder if that is part of the relationship with Wanda is that she is escaping to a place where not only like, in that space, she doesn’t have to deal with death and loss, but it’s like, it’s just not even conceptually something that really shows up in these areas. So she doesn’t even have to like second hand experience. Like there wasn’t like, you know, one of the neighbors died and there was like a, you know, a funeral for them and and the family had to go to is nothing nobody.

Josué Cardona 23:26
So that so the dog died. Remember when the dog died? And did she bring the dog back, I forgot.

Lara Taylor 23:35
no

Josué Cardona 23:35
she didn’t right. It was like I can’t do that.

Link Keller 23:37
they bury the dog.

Lara Taylor 23:38
Agnes was like you can bring him back to life.

Link Keller 23:40
Yeah, that was that was a ploy. Right? Yeah. Yeah. By Agnes and then also, then that was the moment that she, as a mom told her kids about, like, you know, there are things that you can’t change and is like that. That should have maybe been a breakthrough moment for her. But you gotta stretch it out a little bit longer.

Josué Cardona 24:03
no But I think it was because at that point, she had already changed things twice. I think in the last episode, link you said, Oh, she went, you know, somebody went off script. And and so she cut it out. And when that happened with the dog, and she, that’s why I think it was like an aha moment for her cuz she was like, she didn’t know you can’t undo. And she was like, oh, like, like, there was a moment where she’s like, reflecting on it. And and she didn’t do it. And she could have, I would imagine. And I think it was even bigger, because in other times she did it protecting herself from things that she didn’t want to see. And this time she could have done it to protect her kids from seeing something that they didn’t want to see. And yeah, so I think that that was one of those moments where there was some realization of kind of what was what’s happening.

Link Keller 24:51
There were there were a few, a few spots where she was definitely picking up on

Josué Cardona 25:01
what she was putting down.

Link Keller 25:03
I don’t know. I’m just still sort of mad that it’s like she she realized that she was like, these were real people that she was just keeping. Yeah. Like, like the ethics of that. That is so fucked up is so fucked up.

Josué Cardona 25:23
So it was,

Link Keller 25:24
yeah, they did not really resolve that. in my opinion

Josué Cardona 25:30
This is resolving it way more way better than we haven’t talked about this, but a wonder woman 1984 bugged me way more. Yeah. Because it wasn’t addressed at all that Yeah,

Link Keller 25:42
yeah. They didn’t address it at all in wonderwoman. Which was awful. But that was also one man versus a town of people, including children.

Josué Cardona 25:53
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so when I when I rewatched the episode, I was thinking about that. And so she, and I know at some point, she, she says, I don’t know how I did this, right. Like, last time, we started talking about dissociation and dissociation. And it was like, oh, like she we don’t know what’s going on. And apparently, like, She’s not even sure what’s going on, right. And as time goes on, she’s realizing what’s happening, right. Like she’s so she escaped so hard into this world that she created. She doesn’t know what’s going on. But it isn’t until that ninth episode, that she that she learns that she is making all the other people suffer. Because I think that up to that point, she thinks that she is she thinks that all of them are actually they’re just living this dream life, this idealized version that she’s also living, she thinks that that she’s like, it doesn’t register to her that Yeah, she’s manipulating them. And like, the brother at one episode is like, you know, like, this is pretty twisted. She’s like,

Link Keller 26:54
I don’t think that it didn’t register to her. I think that at that time, she didn’t care. It was more important that she was getting what she needed from this place than it mattered that other people were getting harmed.

Josué Cardona 27:08
It’s possible. I still think that

Lara Taylor 27:11
I think she was I think she was she didn’t register it or it was there but not solidified because she was progressively figuring things out.

Josué Cardona 27:22
I think I think she i think i think i think it’s, I think you’re right link that earlier. Like, she became aware. And she thought it was okay at the time.

Link Keller 27:33
the time She basically turned vision off. So he would stop asking questions. Like, that’s the giveaway if the person that you love, and is like, this is also I can like I’m with my man, and we’re finally together and happy in our dream world. And then you have to like shhhh to him. It’s like, No, you know, you know.

Lara Taylor 27:58
but I don’t know, she actually knows because you see her early on? Well, I don’t know how early on. But earlier first half of the series, because we did it come up by the time we talked last time, I think when she leaves the hex to confront sword. She’s a completely different person. She is the Wanda that we see in the movies. She is very clear about like, I am not giving this up. And she still had no idea when she went back in. I think she had compartmentalize things and she was fragmented. So much that she didn’t when she was inside, she was fine. She was pulling the pieces back together and slowly figuring out Oh, yeah, maybe those people that I was controlling, are not happy with being controlled. They I just wanted to put them in a safe place. Why can’t we all be in this utopia together?

Josué Cardona 28:59
Right, right. I think I think you’re right, Link, that she chose at one point, she’s like, Oh, I know that this isn’t right. But I’m gonna keep doing it anyway, because it’s more important to me to do this. What I think happened in episode nine is that she realized what that experience was for them because she didn’t she again,

Link Keller 29:18
she had to get to a point where a lady literally was like, just let us die, then if you’re not gonna let us go right order for her to be like, maybe this isn’t super cool to do to people.

Josué Cardona 29:31
and so this makes a lot of sense to me. Right? Because, again, working working in mental health, you see people who are hurting people around them to make themselves feel better, whether it’s drugs, whether it’s stealing, whether it’s violence, right. And there’s a justification and there’s a version of the story that you tell yourself that allows you to keep going for the benefit of you and and then at some point That moment comes when you’re like, Ah, what? What, right like it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, yeah, it’s it sucks. And

Lara Taylor 30:18
you see her lose her control in that moment like, they’re coming at her, right? And she’s just like, make it stop. And she just reacted and basically forced chokes all of them and then realizes No, no, no, no, I don’t want to hurt them, I’ve been hurting them and pulls back.

Josué Cardona 30:36
And I mean, that’s a struggle that she has at the end because I’m also I’m conflicted about it. So I don’t think anything that she’s doing is okay, for the record. Right. Like, at the end, I was upset that she flew away. And she she didn’t like turn herself in. That that probably bothered me more than anything else. Because after she still realized that she was like, You know what, but I’m still not gonna stick around. I’m still not gonna pay for for Yeah, I don’t want any consequences. Actually, I’m not gonna do that. Yeah, so people asking if she’s, you know, is she the villain of the show?

Link Keller 31:05
a little

Josué Cardona 31:06
A lot, I think. But also but but like, the best villains, right? are the ones who have those stories that are relatable, and you’re like, Oh, I’m so. So this was a pretty damn good villain story. She was. She was, she was not good. Also, she was not well, right. She was like, she was not well throughout the episode. And it’s thinking, I would say, the more I think about the show, the more sad it makes me. Really sad. And like, Monica knows this, right? Monica is the only one that’s always like,

Lara Taylor 31:47
she is hurting.

Josué Cardona 31:49
Yeah, she’s like, she she’s the problem. She is the solution. Right? And it was like, oh, not everybody’s gonna fall in line with that. And, and like Hayward, Hayward didn’t and she was the only one who was willing to, to yeah because she was going through her own stuff. I like when when when we have Episode Four, is it for three? The one where we see

Link Keller 32:12
four

Josué Cardona 32:13
we see her come come back. Right. Yeah, yeah, it’s it. Like, she understands. In part, like, there’s a version of what of what Wanda has gone through that she understands. She even says at the end. Like, if I had the power that you have, I would have brought back my my mom too, I would have done it. Of course, like that The tragedy is like all these other people that had to get caught up in it and all the other things that had to happen. Those of you those, speaking of like, granted, you need a therapist, like that whole town is gonna need a lot of support for a very long time. Forever.

Link Keller 32:55
That’s gonna be a town that hates superheroes, again, if they ever introduce x men into this world, which Oh my God, that’s not even let’s not even go there. But if they do if they do ever have more super powered people in this world, like that is a town where it’s gonna be like, we hate mutants! death to all mutants

Josué Cardona 33:17
the first mutants aren’t allowed Right? Yeah. Yeah. On the on the on the sign of the town.

Link Keller 33:23
They’re being racist. It’s like, Well, did you hear about the time they all got mind controlled for? I don’t know, a week or so.

Josué Cardona 33:33
Anya said that her daughter was locked in a room and wasn’t allowed to leave at all.

Link Keller 33:39
Like, people were in stasis if they weren’t like on scene.

Josué Cardona 33:43
Yeah. Which we saw with vision

Lara Taylor 33:46
with vision on halloween yeah

Josué Cardona 33:48
this was a horror show, right? Like, this is not Yeah, like, if you go back and look at the beginning. Yeah, I did. Like I went back and I revisited the first episode. And it doesn’t feel fun anymore. It feels for me anyway, it feels like it feels creepy, right? Like, you always knew that something strange was going on the first time you’re like, Huh, this is novel, and funny and cute. And then you’re like,

Lara Taylor 34:15
No, I know. I have friends and I at the beginning were like, this is creepy as fuck. first episode. Yeah, there were moments. Like dinner with the dinner and the like him choking and like, haha, the wife is like laughing while her husband is choking.

Josué Cardona 34:32
Yeah, yeah. But there are moments again, it is a horror show. Without a doubt, but there were elements of it at the beginning. They were like, whimsical, and the intros and the songs at the beginning and and all the references. It’s like, Ah, it’s a it’s something that no, no, this is. I mean, yeah, this was dark. This was so dark.

Link Keller 34:53
This is like this is like watching a TV show and being like, Wow, that’s so cool. And then learning about the TV show and finding out That the director was a piece of shit. And the dressing people were rapists and all sorts of like, Oh, no, I’ve discovered the darkness behind this thing that seems so cute and shiny is like, Oh, yeah, that fits further into the TV meta aspect that they’re going on. Right.

Josué Cardona 35:20
Yeah. Which also reminds me of, I mean, again, a lot of coping mechanisms are like that, right? where like, you try to create this facade, you try to create this image of everything being okay. And this is why I have trouble trusting people. So I don’t ask, I tend to not ask people how they’re doing, because I don’t believe anybody. They tell me that they’re okay or not. I don’t I don’t take that at face value. So seeing seeing the dick van dyke show recreated, you know, and then first episode is no longer like, yeah,

Link Keller 36:00
it’s a lot creepier. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess I guess. I’m sort of disappointed in how the show ended. Like I said, in the last episode, when we were just talking about episodes one through four, I feel like the show was at its best when it was really working with the themes of these TV shows these sitcoms and Wanda’s grief and loss and trauma and processing all of these through these lenses. Those were the coolest parts and then the parts where it tried to be like really, for lack of a better term, comic book referential felt like the weakest moments.

Josué Cardona 36:41
So as as I disagree with you hard, and yet, and yet, last week, that’s we said that for like a half hour, we’re talking about Superman and Louis and we’re like, we hope it doesn’t get comic booky. It’s perfect the way it is. We hope it doesn’t change.

Lara Taylor 36:56
But the thing the differences, we’ve seen the comic booky Superman. This we haven’t seen before.

Josué Cardona 37:03
I don’t I? I don’t know. I mean, I think

Lara Taylor 37:08
we have had so many Superman’s, so many.

Josué Cardona 37:11
I don’t I don’t know how to. I don’t think first of all, there’s no way to please everybody, but I don’t know like what’s the perfect way to wrap up this story. Like, I don’t know, I kind of

Lara Taylor 37:22
Well, we’re not wrapping up the story is just leading into Doctor Strange

Josué Cardona 37:26
No, this is one story. This is one story and it’s wrapped up and and yeah, there are feelings about it. And it took me it took a second viewing for me to appreciate the two visions fighting each other and not see it as just as comic booky see that. And so Link is got crunch face on right. And so I’m when I think about it in terms of like, oh, like, just give me that give me the emotional give the good stuff, right? Why are we doing this? I had to go back and revisit it to get that part of it. And I think it was happening there too. That whole conversation between the two versions of vision were nerdy as hell but also, but also very relevant to the theme of the show. Right when he’s talking about like, so what what are we like if we change over time, and we’re constantly changing? Are we still the same person that we were before? Yeah, and what part is me For real? Is it was it they talked about the rot right like the pieces of it that are that need to be replaced? And is the real me the piece that is gone? Or is it the piece? Am I still the same person and it’s a it’s a philosophical conversation, but it entertains the idea of of of change and who you are.

Link Keller 38:45
I like that they had that kind of conversation instead of just a flying battle like I’m appreciative of that it felt a little lame to be having that conversation with vision instead of with Wanda

Lara Taylor 39:01
but wanda’s not ready. but visions

Link Keller 39:07
vision ceases to exist minutes later

Josué Cardona 39:11
No, I think I think I’ve i think i think it worked for me, I think and I think it worked I think it was it was good. And it was another way I liked it. It was it was the same theme.

Link Keller 39:23
I wish I wish instead of instead of giving vision more time to have a character arc and then cease to exist sort of instead of doing stuff they should have they should have given Monica more more. I felt like they really underutilized her in that last episode. I’m I feel like they did her dirty.

Lara Taylor 39:45
So there was supposed to be more

Josué Cardona 39:48
there are deleted scenes.

Link Keller 39:49
Okay, but supposed to be more is not there is more.

Lara Taylor 39:53
A lot of things were cut because they had to redo things with COVID protocols.

Josué Cardona 40:00
I still think that Monica is gonna get her time to shine like she’s like, yes. set her up at the end to be she’s gonna be in Secret Invasion, right? That’s like now we know that’s her show, right? Like, hey, that’s her thing.

Lara Taylor 40:12
And she’s gonna be in probably in Captain Marvel too. And Miss Marvel and Miss Marvel and who knows? she hulk

Link Keller 40:18
Okay, So in order for this character to have like any depth, I have to invest in several more shows where maybe, potentially, they might give her charcter depth.

Josué Cardona 40:28
Don’t forget, don’t forget to rewatch the other 21 movies.

Lara Taylor 40:31
And watch and watch Captain Marvel because that’s where you meet Monica rambeau

Link Keller 40:35
Yeah, I saw. I saw Captain Marvel.

Lara Taylor 40:39
but link

Josué Cardona 40:39
This is why last week.

Lara Taylor 40:40
This is Marvel. This is Marvel II This is what you get when you bought watching Marvel

Josué Cardona 40:44
show legs. Why last week when when? Link when You said you couldn’t you couldn’t come back? Lara was

Link Keller 40:50
I’m sure you were very appreciative.

Josué Cardona 40:52
Well, no it was

Lara Taylor 40:56
I was like we were going to talk about oh, we were gonna talk about comfort characters. And then I was like, link’s not here. Let’s talk about Superman and Lois. Lane had been talking

Josué Cardona 41:05
about it. So we can go deep on on superheroes. If Link isn’t gonna be here, this is why this is why we did that last week. Yeah,

Link Keller 41:14
yeah. I don’t I don’t mind there being an extended universe and space for me to explore characters that are only you know, gently mentioned. And then like, if you want more look for him in this series, and this movies like that can be really cool into that. The exploratory nature of engaging with these stories and characters, that’s interesting. But these things should be able to stand on their own. If you’re making a nine episodes of a TV show that has it’s own name,

Josué Cardona 41:47
you’re playing by old rules link

Lara Taylor 41:49
making it for you Link they’re making it for us who are eating it up and digging into all that that call back from ago or 10 movie if

Link Keller 41:58
you continue on this trajectory. You lose everybody, you have to have some sort of

Lara Taylor 42:06
I’m going to indoctrinate my children.

Josué Cardona 42:09
Disney Disney.

Link Keller 42:10
You say that. But are you really gonna make your kid watch all 27?

Lara Taylor 42:15
yes

Link Keller 42:16
What if they don’t like them?

Lara Taylor 42:19
I’ll have them on while I’m watching. But

Link Keller 42:22
this this is what I’m talking about. It is fine for there to be connective webs to other things, but I should get a story that stands on its own. And wandavision did do that. But I feel like it fumbles a lot of the ending. And part of that is the x men stuff and the doctor strange stuff. And having all of these things be like Oh, your expectations knowledgeable viewer. And if you’re not a super knowledgeable viewer, it undermines all of the work that they have done in this story. Right is this

Josué Cardona 43:10
I understand what you’re saying

Link Keller 43:11
it’s it’s the thing with having Agatha be the secondary villain and Hayward being the primary villain but then neither of them. Wanda is the villain. So it’s I don’t know it just

Link Keller 43:25
Black Panther had Claw. And then you realize oh, it’s not really Claw.

Josué Cardona 43:32
Don’t Don’t use references to other

Link Keller 43:35
well, don’t use black panther as a reference because killmonger was right. So like,

Lara Taylor 43:42
but that’s the thing. killmonger was right and relatable. Wanda might not be right. But she’s relatable.

Josué Cardona 43:50
Not everybody agrees with with with killmonger or or T’Challa. I mean it’s such a good movie

Link Keller 44:01
no, it’s the story itself Black Panther the movie sets killmonger up as a bad guy allows killmonger to express himself and his goals. And then after he dies to T’Challa makes those goals come true. He realizes those actions making killmonger right. So

Josué Cardona 44:22
I don’t I don’t I’m not sure exactly what you’re referring to.

Link Keller 44:26
It’s not it’s not Yeah,

Josué Cardona 44:28
I disagree.

Link Keller 44:29
It just ends up not being supported. Within Wanda’s story and character arc having a villain who just wants more power and then having another villain who wants to build another super weapon, but also doesn’t want to listen to his boss. I’m really confused with his whole thing, but I don’t know any of the sword stuff. So who knows?

Lara Taylor 44:56
I don’t really know any of this sword stuff.

Josué Cardona 44:58
The nerd in me wants to argue But instead, I’m going to bring up another example. I’ve been on our anime podcast Otaku Ryoho Gian asked me to watch a show. And it is, it is gotta be, it is so good it is it is just like it is. It is like concentrated Geek Therapy. It is about. It’s called Love, chunibyo and other delusions, and it’s a show about these kids who want to, you know, these like high school kids, some of them are like, over playing, make believe, and some of them are not. And they ultimately it’s about, like how we’re, we’re all pretending. And we’re all like, making, you know, pretending to be things that we aren’t. And there are like ways to view the world that are more that make more sense or just more fun or imagination is great. Being creative is great. There’s, there’s, there’s so many things about the show that I love. I cannot recommend this show to like 98% of people. I was I mean, I’m gonna make the GT library entry for it. Because I have to be as it’s that good. But I could never recommend this. Like, I love the show so much. And and I, I love the show so much that I found out that there were like shorts and like a movie, like two movies, and they’re not on streaming I was I was like, I just bought the blu ray collection. I’m like, I need to go deep into this show. I love it. I want to I want to I want every piece of media related to it. I want to I want to check it out, because I love the show so much. But there’s no way no way that I would that I would recommend it. And I don’t think I would have recommended. I would never recommend or most of the time, I wouldn’t recommend superhero stuff to you, for example. Because I don’t, because if I wanted it to be something right if I want if I wanted you to. It’s It’s It’s the packaging, right? It’s the packaging, there’s no, it doesn’t matter what I saw in or like how I really, or even if I think like, oh, maybe maybe, you know, like, like this is this is like a game that I don’t always win, but I play every day. And I’m like, if I recommend this to this person, like it’s gonna hit them in a particular way. And but the packaging matters. And and so you cannot. Yeah, there are things that I would never recommend to you. There are things I would never recommend to Lara. And and so definitely I was. I mean, I was I was I was anticipating this version of our conversation from the moment. They were like, how many of like, What do I have to watch? Like I thought about it. And then I started joking about the 21 movies. plus plus the x men reference, which, to me was like the biggest payoff of the whole thing. It ultimately didn’t even matter. But it was still

Lara Taylor 48:09
Boehner

Link Keller 48:10
really mad about that.

Lara Taylor 48:12
yes they were

Link Keller 48:13
I wanted to just look up and see how people were responding to the last episode. Before we recorded this. Yeah, having already, you know, made my own opinions about it. People were really mad about about Evan Peters.

Josué Cardona 48:27
There’s I’m rereading Jane McGonigal is reality is broken right now. And I just read the part about she talks about fiero and it’s this like feeling of like, it’s the moment where like, something really good happens in a game and you’re just like, you throw your hands up and you cheer and like, it’s just like, ah, like, like, that was like that was a moment for me when they showed Evan Peters. It was it was it was one of those things that will never like I can’t recreate that moment. And it but to get that like I cannot describe how satisfying it was to someone who didn’t have that exact experience. And I understand that it required 20 years of attachment to all of this media in different ways, right? It required like actually being invested into the x men movies which aren’t as popular as the as the Avengers movies like I’m, I’m still

Link Keller 49:24
i mean not necessarily investment but just have it if you if you saw Days of Future Past was that the one with where Quicksilver shows up and

Josué Cardona 49:34
he’s in three movies. He’s in 3 different x-men movies.

Link Keller 49:37
Like the big scene where he rescues people from the x man mansion. while it’s exploding. Yeah. It’s a great scene like yeah, fantastic scene. It is not obsessed with x men or the Marvel stuff. And I went like, hey, that’s the fast guy from x men. I remember him.

Lara Taylor 49:58
I would walk out His I would pick out his face before I would pick out the other Pietro, right. But my reaction was like, Oh my God, my face lit up and I was screaming. And it’s the same reaction. Josué you sent me a tiktok when Mandalorian was was going, the second season of Mandalorian was running, and ahsoka’s name came up. And it was just all the reality of people screaming and so and just because her name shows up, she’s in two cartoons.

Josué Cardona 50:32
So I told my, my, my niece loves Star Wars. And she, I think I used to love it more than she I think she still loves it. Ahsoka is her favorite character for like, I forgot what your birthday was. We got the five o first Legion to come by. And she was dressed up as Ahsoka and she cried. She was so scared when the storm troopers showed up. She like ran away. But she had done like Jedi training when she went to Disney. Like she’s like ahsoka that she loves the character of ahsoka. So I told her, like I had that moment already, right where I was like, so I told my sister, I was like, Look, you don’t give a shit. But please, record record my niece when she watches that when she sees that that scene, right? And yeah, I mean it’s like after that Evan Peters thing. So every Friday morning I would get up and before work I would watch the episode because spoilers people people are just i’m i’ve softened up on spoilers I don’t I don’t hate them as much as I used to. But damn people are just vicious online on a Friday so so so I watched it and then and then after that episode, there was this dislike moment of sadness that there was nobody else I could share this with. I kept texting Lara to watch it. Okay, watch it till like tonight, maybe like, can’t wait 18 hours for you to watch this.

Lara Taylor 51:51
I know.

Josué Cardona 51:51
I’ve been put by so my dad, but my dad finally watched it. He had no idea. So my dad watches more movies than I do. He’s like, just as he’s he’s not his memory. He doesn’t go as deep. He goes broader. Right. So when he so when that happens, like, I mean, he had he did not remember Aaron Johnson at all. He in his mind. Evan Peters was in the Avengers to like it was like there was never an aaron Johnson Quicksilver right? And he was he was so confused. So to him. The surprise was that there was another actor that played quicksilver in Age of Ultron he had no idea what was happening. So that didn’t, it meant nothing. It didn’t mean the same thing to him as it did to me. But anyway, like those, those little moments, I mean, that and that’s a whole other conversation. Right? Like, like, I think I think that the the grief and loss and perseverance comment and all that stuff, I think I think there’s there’s so much to look at and talk about if but you have to be willing to, to play in this world to be able to enjoy it without like, you know, rolling your eyes at it. Or or even. I know some people like don’t tolerate it. I’m not saying you link but like other people, right? Like some people like I can’t I can’t deal with that stuff. I’m like, Okay, I get it. That’s that’s a

Lara Taylor 53:08
we’ll use another metaphor.

Josué Cardona 53:11
Exactly, exactly. I wouldn’t I wouldn’t use wandavision. But but for Yeah, I mean, I think I can’t think of another superhero movie like this, that this is like the first time that they went and explored something like that. And I think because they had nine episodes to do it. They were able to do because up to up to now none of the no TV show has been able to bullshit bullshit. The Netflix shows the Netflix Marvel shows were pretty fucking good, actually. And they they took their time on a lot of emotional stuff. Before they all jumped the shark eventually, also, but except daredevil, I don’t think I don’t think daredevil ever jumped the shark. But I think all the other shows did. It might be interesting, because

Link Keller 53:54
daredevil is the only one that got a third season, right?

Josué Cardona 53:58
uh Yes,

Lara Taylor 53:59
yeah. Yeah. But it was also the first one. But that one is my least favorite of all of them so far.

Josué Cardona 54:09
Yeah. I mean, there’s like a pattern here. You want it’s also the least superhero-y one less power one like all the other ones have people. There’s

Lara Taylor 54:22
Jessica Jones is like, not just a good I know. Powers and stuff. But that’s not what I like about this show. But that’s not what I like about the show. I like the emotional piece and the that it’s a detective show and Yeah, yep,

Link Keller 54:42
you bring up Jessica Jones… I can’t help. But remember, a huge point of that first season was that kilgrave is that his name? That guy kilgrave is asserting control over people and to taking away their agency and he is very much explicitly a bad guy. Wanda does it to a whole town.

Lara Taylor 55:09
but she didn’t kill Nobody.

Link Keller 55:13
You know, there’s a gray area here. I just thought about that.

Josué Cardona 55:18
It’s true. That’s interesting. Interesting. That is interesting.

Link Keller 55:22
Okay, I have just a couple more things that I wanted to touch on. But first of all, I wanted to share with you, a therapist, friends, this, you’re gonna be happy. a therapist friend messaged me, and said, I actually just had a client to bring up wandavision in a session today, we ended up using it as a metaphor for emotions being powerful, unwieldy, and even potentially harmful when they’re unconscious, but bringing them into the consciousness can allow that power to be harnessed and channeled.

Josué Cardona 55:55
Beautiful, beautiful.

Link Keller 55:56
Great. That’s Mm hmm. Talk to your Geek Therapy shit right there! The other thing I wanted to say is I really thought that when they revealed the scene of Wanda and Pietro being kids, and what happened with their parents, and then what happened with them until he died, I really thought with the to her twins, her sons, I thought that then instead of those being like children, those were more representations of the childhood, her and her brother never got. And so she’s like, doing the sort of, I don’t remember what they call it in therapy, but where you basically interact with a childhood version of yourself and you do like self parenting stuff, which I thought would have been really cool if they had done that. But when I looked it up online later, apparently, they’re they’re going to be young Young Avengers, so it’s more comic book stuff instead of cool psychology stuff, but that’s fine. I thought it was cool.

Lara Taylor 56:59
But but even so even if they are real, and they are wicked and speed, that doesn’t mean that she isn’t learning through her children and how she parents or children about herself. We do that as people all the time, but sometimes sometimes not in healthy ways, sometimes in healthy ways.

Link Keller 57:16
True. It might my finger wag about it is basically how she says goodbye to them before de-summoning their existence. If, if, to me framing them more as a metaphor for her processing childhood trauma than just being like, Okay, you’ve served your purpose. Goodbye. makes more sense than like, these are actually literally my children. I don’t care if you know, everybody in this town is enslaved because of it. I have to protect my children. I don’t know it. I thought it was a cool idea. But it ends up it’s it’s Young Avengers. it’s kind of a cool idea, though, right?

Josué Cardona 58:05
I’m giving you I’m giving you 100%

Link Keller 58:06
like they had they had the same powers. Right?

Josué Cardona 58:08
It’s a missed opportunity.

Link Keller 58:10
one had her powers and one had her brother’s powers like Exactly. And so I was just like, oh, it it is it’s her and her brother, but like wink.

Josué Cardona 58:18
This is this is what this is. This is where sometimes these conversations, I need to remind myself that like, oh, right no, their purpose wasn’t to explore every possible, you know, relationship to trauma or, or therapeutic way of looking at it or even, you know, deeper psychological thing. It’s ultimately like, I mean, it was funny re-listening to that last episode and you saying like, I hope they don’t go out like comic book-y like Marvel, you know, just get all Marvel and stuff. I was like, it’s gonna happen. It’s, it’s either gonna be in the last episode or in the last two episodes, but it’s gonna happen. There’s gonna be a big battle. There’s gonna be explosions. And sure enough, right, like everybody’s flying and going around. But I think I think the show went farther than I way farther than I expected it to with a lot of these things. And yeah, I don’t know, I think I think the kids I don’t I don’t know,

Lara Taylor 59:15
there’s room for the kids to still have that meaning because when she says goodbye to them, she didn’t know that they are somewhere out there still. Right?

Link Keller 59:25
I mean, we’re assuming that based on comic books,

Lara Taylor 59:33
I’m assuming that on the show, I have never read any of any of these

Josué Cardona 59:38
I have. I have thoughts about this. So when she says goodbye to the kids, she says thank you for choosing me as your mom. Which one horror version of this is that she pulled those kids out of another dimension, right like out of some other reality instead of actually creating them which I’m, which is messed up and goes in line with, like, I’m going to do whatever I need to do to be happy. But I think it’s also equally and perhaps even more messed up that she has the power to create life. And she did it for the purpose of her own, of just like having the things that she was unable to have. I mean, she literally did that with vision, right? Like she it Yeah, the version of vision is based on her on her memories. It is not vision. So so she created this person and like it is sad at the end for me to see him die. Because he was self aware enough. He was the only one that was self aware through the entire thing, and suffered that he suffered more than than Wanda did. Because to him, things were off and he was trying to like through Him, we were able to start unraveling the mystery. And he’s the one that started finding the answers and seeing how horrible it was. And then he learned that his wife was causing this like he was, I felt worse for him. And at the end, as beautiful as I thought the whole conversation was the whole transformation and everything and even like the thing with the two visions. At the end, I felt so my heart like ached for him. But the thing with the kids was so messed up was so messed up like she not only created sentient beings, right, I’m assuming this I’m assuming that these weren’t like projections of her imagination. I’m assuming that she created sentience in these two in these two children manipulated their bodies, right and in like, in some subconscious way made them age faster. I think that there’s definitely something there about I think, I think that’s why Quicksilver or a version of Quicksilver showed up so that we could see that it was a reflection of her in the kids but they didn’t explore that. Right. To your point. They didn’t explore anything, but there’s definitely the kind of presented it.

Link Keller 1:01:57
They dangled, they dangled the little tasty Niblett that I was like, oh, i’m intrigued by that, let me, I would like to taste it. And they were like, hehehe No,

Josué Cardona 1:02:08
I don’t

Lara Taylor 1:02:08
I just just like they did with the rest of us with Evan Peters,

Josué Cardona 1:02:13
So here’s the third version of something being really messed up, that I’ve been thinking about. So the this is leading into Dr. Strange. It’s called Dr. Strange and the multiverse of madness. So the kids apparently exist somewhere else. And I wonder if they exist in some, what if it’s the multiverse like, it’s the madness part, like, this thing, where it’s like, her mental health, like created this thing? and things that like, are born of trauma exists in this other plane that we’re gonna get to see in this movie? I didn’t think of that. But like, that sounds like more horror stuff. For me. Yeah, I don’t I don’t think that Young Avengers is going to be anything. Yeah, I don’t I don’t think Young Avengers is going to be like, I don’t think it’s going to be like, oh, cool, like young, young, the Avengers for kids? I think it�