Feet and Footwear in the World’s Fastest Sport
Feet and Footwear in the World’s Fastest Sport
– The MOVEMENT Movement with Steven Sashen Episode 142 with Xinyu Cheng
Xinyu Cheng, a semi-professional Chinese table tennis player, starts playing ping-pong at 7 years old. Over the past several years, he has played in the league in both China and Spain. Xinyu has a great passion for sports and fitness, he is also a table tennis coach apart from being a player. Currently, Xinyu is playing for the club Fuencarral in the national league of Spain.
At the beginning of the new season of 2022-2023, he won the men’s singles champion at the Madrid Open table tennis tournament on behalf of his club.
Listen to this episode of The MOVEMENT Movement with Xinyu Cheng about footwear in table tennis.
Here are some of the beneficial topics covered on this week’s show:
– How a lot of movement is involved when people play table tennis.
– How to play table tennis and the ins and outs of the sport.
– Why choppers and defenders wait for their opponents to make a mistake instead of playing table tennis aggressively.
– Why wearing minimalist shoes when playing table tennis is beneficial.
– How the modern athletic shoe has led more athletes to more injuries than before it existed.
Connect with Xinyu:
Links Mentioned:
ppongsuper.com
Connect with Steven:
Website
Xeroshoes.com
Jointhemovementmovement.com
Twitter
@XeroShoes
Instagram
@xeroshoes
Facebook
facebook.com/xeroshoes
Steven Sashen:
When people think about minimalist footwear, they either think about going barefoot or they think about running. Sometimes they think about hiking, but they don’t think about the many, many other things that people do when they need natural movement or they need to be in something that lets their body do what’s natural. So we’re going to find out about something you probably haven’t thought of that you’re going to be really interested in on this week’s episode, or this episode of The Movement Movement, the podcast for people who want know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first.
Those things that are your foundation where we break down the propaganda, the mythologies, and often the just flat out lies that people have told you about what it takes to run or walk, or hike, or do yoga, CrossFit, whatever it is that you normally think of doing. And to do that enjoyably and effectively. Did I mention enjoyably? It’s a trick question. I know I did. Because look, if you’re not having fun, do something different until you are. Because if it’s not fun, you’re not going to want to keep it up anyway. So we call this The Movement Movement because we are creating a movement that involves you, doesn’t cost anything, really easy to do about natural movement, letting your body do what it’s made to do and be optimized as a result of doing that. And the way you can help is really easy. Go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com.
You don’t need to do anything to join. That just is the domain that I got. But basically the drill, it’s like leave a review on the various places that you can find the podcast. Give us the thumbs up where that’s relevant, hit the like button where that’s relevant. If you’re on YouTube, hit the bell so you can subscribe. In fact, that’s the gist of it. If you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. We’re looking forward to your help. By the way, I’m Steven Sashen, Co-Founder and CEO of xeroshoes.com. That’s what behind me. We’re going to talk about that more later if we need to. But most importantly, we have a special guest. Can you say hello and tell people who you are and what you do?
Xinyu Cheng:
Okay. Hello, guys. This is Xinyu. Well, I’m a Chinese guy, but now I’m currently in Spain, in Madrid and playing the National League of table tennis here. Yeah. That’s me. And we’re actually in the past week, I’ve gone the champion of Madrid, but-
Steven Sashen:
Oh, hey, congratulations.
Xinyu Cheng:
… in the league… Yeah, in the league. In the first day of the league, I lost too much. Anyway, that’s quite normal for us to lose and win. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Well, so the secret that we’re now letting out is table tennis and no one would normally think about, well people don’t really know, especially in America, a whole lot about table tennis to begin with, let alone what it’s like on the competitive scene and how important your feet are because, holy smokes, you guys are… Has anyone calculated how many miles you’re actually moving during a match?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, well, that’s a really tricky question. Well, it depends. As for me, I am a chopper, which means I am a defender. So it means that I have to move quite more than other guys who play aggressive style. I mean, they just play near the table. They do not need to move a lot. But for me, I have to move upward, backward, and in such ways. So to be honest, I don’t know exactly the number or the amount of how many miles I’m moving a match. But definitely, I move a lot more than others. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Well, and you just said something that, I mean, I know nothing about table tennis. So the fact that you just say that you’re a chopper and a defender, can you talk about just what that actually means? Let’s give people a sense of… Well, just say what that is and what the other options would be if you’re not a defender, if you’re not a chopper. So that people can get a sense of just some of the ins and outs of table tennis that other people probably don’t know as well.
Xinyu Cheng:
Okay. So to be honest, I think most people are more familiar with tennis and it’s quite similar. But as a defender or chopper in table tennis, it means that sometimes we have to leave really far away from the table and make such movement to push the ball and defend the ball. So normally, if a player who plays defensive style, sometimes you have to move back. And sometimes his opponent will move him and just send the ball to the short quarter of the table. So we have to move back and push the ball back. So the play style of us is to… As defender, the object of us is not to kill the opponent by our techniques. It is to generate some mistakes of them, let them make mistakes. Yeah. So that’s our goal. So we let them attack and we just let them make more mistakes. So we just move back, move forward, and try to make more mistakes for them. That’s what we do normally. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
And that’s very interesting. It reminds me of how some people talk about certain martial arts where it’s the same idea, you just want to wait until someone makes the error themself. You want to set. You want to be in a strong position to allow them to make an error.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. That’s our idea.
Steven Sashen:
So, is there a name for somebody who has a more aggressive style or more offensive style rather than a defensive style?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, you mean, the famous guy is in the world?
Steven Sashen:
No. Just like for a name for that kind of person. So if you’re a defender and chopper, what’s the opposite of that? If there’s an opposite of that?
Xinyu Cheng:
Normally, they just call them attacker or just like some… Yeah, attacker. That’s maybe better. That means they use loops or back drives. Yeah. They call drives in table tennis is such kind of technical name.
Steven Sashen:
So, I have a lot of fun when I learn language that I’ve never heard before. And I don’t mean Chinese, I mean in this case, just a language of table times. So you referred to what you’re doing is pushing the ball. Is that the term for basically just setting things up to give them that opportunity to be defensive rather than doing something? So looping I’m imagining is something with a lot of top spin or backspin. Am I correct?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, yeah. Right. Even top spin in the back spin. Great.
Steven Sashen:
Okay. Got it. Wait. What was the other term you just used for what an attacker would be doing other than looping?
Xinyu Cheng:
Drive.
Steven Sashen:
The drive into what’s your-
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Drive means there will be more effect, more top spin and more violent. Yeah. More violent. Yeah. I mean, the more violent than the boy is, I mean, it’s more faster and we have to move more backwards to defend it, because there will not be enough space for us in the short court. We have to move backward to do the defense.
Steven Sashen:
Got it.
Xinyu Cheng:
That’s the difference between table tennis and the tennis. Tennis, we hardly see people move really, really, really backwards. They just move in a specific area, but in the table tennis, so we have to move quite far away from the table and then we have to be reset and to prepare for the next shot. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
One of the things, I went and watched table tennis at the Atlanta Olympics. And again, I knew nothing about it, but the thing that surprised me most was how hot it was in that place where we were playing, because they had to turn off anything that would create an air current that would affect the ball. And it was really hot in air for a really long time.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. It’s quite normal among those players, but very really high level among those top level players. It’s not easier for anyone to terminate or end match in just one shot or two shots. Normally, there will be more rounds between them. That’s quite enjoyable for us. To watch them. Yeah. But for them, it’s quite suffering, they have to prepare for many, many, many shots and definitely they would be exhausted after that.
Steven Sashen:
So, do you only play singles, or do you play doubles as well?
Xinyu Cheng:
I play both. I mean, in the leagues normally we have to prepare for both. Normally, the regulation here is we play six singles, I mean, we have three players. No, every time we three players, each of us we will play two matches. Two single matches. And if finally there is a tie, I mean, 3-3, and then we have to play the final. The final will be your double one.
Steven Sashen:
Interesting.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. A double match. Yeah. But if there is a 2-4, or 5-1, or 6-0 though, the end is [inaudible 00:08:48]
Steven Sashen:
At singles. Oh, that’s really interesting. I didn’t think of it as a team thing. I always thought of just the individual. So that’s interesting to hear.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. In Spain or in Europe, there’s a league and tournament. In the league is always like a team match. I think the tournament is just a single or doubles.
Steven Sashen:
How long have you been playing?
Xinyu Cheng:
It’s hard. Well, let me think about it. Well, actually, the thing is that I first played table tennis when I was eight years old, but in China, it’s quite late. So I can still remember that the first day in every house was quite excited, because it’s our first day to table tennis, but our coach told us that, “Hey, guys. Unfortunately, I know every one of you have a dream of being an Olympic champion, but I have to suddenly tell you that all of you are too late to practice or start table tennis.” Now in China, normally in China, the proper age to start playing this is four or five. When the kids are just able to stand up and sometimes they’re even lower than a table and they start to practice it.
So, I mean, I’ve been playing for maybe 17 or 18 years now, but I cannot say I’m the top one, especially in China. But in Europe, just so-so. I’m also not a very, very top one, but a decent player.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I assume there have been people who have proven that idea that you have to start at four or five wrong, that there are people who started much later who are Olympians or-
Xinyu Cheng:
Of course. Well, I think our coaches just wanted to realize the reality and the not waste so much on it. Well, actually, at first I was not agreeing with him. I just thought, “What are you talking about? I can’t make it?”
Steven Sashen:
Well, that’s what I was going to ask. Was it something that was depressing or something that was motivating? Something like, “Well, I’ll prove you wrong,” versus-
My hunch is that that’s actually, I mean, I understand that the program might have started for four- and five-year-olds, but my guess is that he said that to see who was going to get motivated and who was going to get upset. Because I do something like that at track meets, I’ll go to a high school track meet if they have automated timing and they allow master’s athletes, older athletes to participate. And I’ll usually end up in one of the slower heats with the high school kids and I’ll beat many of them. And the thing that I will say is at the end of the race I’ll say, “Hey, I’m older than your,” dad and I do it to see which ones get upset, they want to beat me the next time versus the ones who get depressed and the ones who get upset, they’re really fun to hang out with.
And then we talk about what to do to get better and all the things that I did when I was their age, and I was a gymnast and it’s really fun. But the ones who get demoralized, it’s different. Yeah.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Quite interesting. Wow.
Steven Sashen:
So, considering how much moving you’re doing and it’s both lateral and forward and backward, obviously what brings us here and what started our conversation was the importance of your feet and footwear. So I’m curious, before we even talk about footwear, how much, I mean, especially in the Chinese system, do people pay attention to feet in a way? I mean, look, also set the stage for some people who’ve never been to China, that in China there are foot massage and foot washing, which is another version of foot massage and reflexology, there’s everywhere. The importance of foot health is really, really well integrated into Chinese culture.
But I wonder, is there anything more indifferent that happens once you become a competitive table tennis player where clearly your feet are really important?
Xinyu Cheng:
Well, when it comes to next topic, being a table tennis player, the movement on the feet is sometimes… Well, in most cases is much, much more important than the movement in the hand. That is a huge difference between professional playing and the starters. I mean, for some beginners they just stand there still and they try to move their arms or move their body but do not move a lot with their feet. But when our level become much more advanced, our coach begin to let us to practice movement every day. We have different kinds of movement in our feet and we have to practice it. I can remember that when I was young, I have been in specific table tennis school. I mean, we trained four to six hours every day.
And there will be one hour for physical training. And it’s especially for the foot moving. I mean, besides the technical training, every day we have one hour for a movement with the feet, every different step to practice it and later use it in the match.
Steven Sashen:
So, can you describe a little more about what you’re doing during that portion of the training? What they’re doing to teach you how to move properly?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, okay. But exactly, I do not know the exact name for that in English. But basically, there are two or three basic types of movements in table tennis. The first one is movements in the vertical or from left to right, something like slide. Yeah. Slide maybe a way to describe it. So there was interesting practice or exercise for us is there will be two wall in the room in this large stadium, and then we have to use these movement from this side of the wall to the other side of the wall. And maybe let’s pose 10 backhand around one round. And yeah, they say is one around and we have to maybe do 10 rounds, 20 rounds.
Steven Sashen:
So back and forth 10 times?
Xinyu Cheng:
Back and forth. Yeah. Back and forth 10 times.
Steven Sashen:
And I’m assuming that basically it’s obviously not running, you’re staying as if you’re at a table. So, you’re staying parallel, you’re basically just going sideways. And you’re just doing it 10 times. Are they timing you? Is it for speed? Is it for technique?
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah, exactly. And actually, we have to combine it ways with the movement in the arms with the techniques. So actually when the ball comes, the first thing is to or make the movement or move at the right place and then I’m prepared for hitting the ball. And after hitting the ball, the most important thing is not to wait for next ball, but to reset, to reset in the quite central place. Not to the right, not to the left, in the central and proper place and wait for the ball and make a prediction where my opponent will probably receive back the ball. And move a little bit in advance and prepare for next one.
So, every time the movement with the feet is quite important, especially in some professional and high-level matches. Yeah. Actually you watch the primary school students, if you watch their match, they’re just hardly moving. They just stand there. And boom, boom, boom. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Well, yeah. And I mean, in a way the way you’re describing it makes me think of a soccer goalie who’s especially getting a penalty kick where you have to simultaneously make a bit of a decision in advance, but somehow be able to adapt to that if you can.
And yeah, I’m sure people are imagining what I am, which is someone hits a ball where it goes way wide, you have to respond to that and if you come back too far too fast, they can just go back in the same direction. You won’t be able to respond quickly enough.
Or the exact opposite where they hit it so far on the other side that you can’t get there in time, I mean, this just makes my brain explode just imagining how you do that. But I also imagine that as you get better, you can almost sort of see in advance that’s just in the setup of how they’re moving, where they might be hitting the ball in a way that people who are not really expert in the game would never identify or they’ve never noticed that.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. I agree with you. But the football… Well, like penalty is quite, quite much more faster. Yeah. It’s quite faster.
Steven Sashen:
True.
Xinyu Cheng:
So, the goalkeeper, if he makes the wrong prediction-
Steven Sashen:
It’s over.
Xinyu Cheng:
… hardly had the second time to make up for it. Yeah. But for us, a lot advantage, yeah, and a lot of difference, the table is quite small. So-
Steven Sashen:
True. But it’s small, but you get the right angle, you can really send people running. Well, I wonder, but I want to back up to this other thing because I’m thinking last week, I met an Olympic gymnast, and I was an all-American gymnast when I was much younger. And we were talking about how when we’re watching gymnastics on television with non-gymnasts, we are usually responding to a move before the move has happened. So someone’s going to do a round off back handspring, double twisting, double back flip. And before the person has taken off, we’re sometimes going, “Oh, because we know they’re not going to make it.” Because you can just see something that if you really know gymnastics, it’s really obvious but no one else can see it. And I can only imagine table tennis has that quality where when you… And it’s probably completely unconscious, but again, you start to understand the movement happening almost before it even happens to allow you to figure out how to put yourself in the best position for defending.
Xinyu Cheng:
Of course. So that’s why we have to train or exercise, because sometimes there will be maybe just very few seconds or very few, let’s suppose… Well, my coach tell me that we only have little 0.5 seconds to make adjust if we make something wrong. So in most occasion, sometimes we just do it without or in an unconscious way, we just hit it. And after that, we even sometimes don’t know how we hit the ball back. We just stay in the right place and just do it according to the memory of the muscle or memory of the feet. So that’s why we have to train a lot, especially for the defenders. It’s because for us it’s quite much more passive, yeah, in a passive way. So we are not like attackers. Attackers, when they want to poke in there, they’re prepared and they just need to attack the ball.
Steven Sashen:
Right.
Xinyu Cheng:
So, for us, it’s more much more difficult.
Steven Sashen:
So other than the movement training, the example of just back and forth, yeah, as you’re doing it, is there anything else that you were doing that were particularly about training foot strength for example or mobility or anything else you can think of?
Xinyu Cheng:
Mm-hmm. Of course, actually as all of the sports, we have to do some running or we can call it jogging. Well, running is much more specific like 5,000 meters every day after the match. It’s also a part of the physical training. Like football, basketball, I suppose all the sports players they have to do. It is a necessary part of all kinds of sports. Well, to be honest, I do not like this part.
Steven Sashen:
Look, my fantasy, I’m remembering when I went to the Master’s World Championships, the many of the teams that weren’t the US teams had brought physiotherapists with them. And so as soon as you’re done running, you’re on the table getting a massage or getting some chiropractic adjustment or something. And especially when I’ve read about professional sprinters even more, they’re treated like thoroughbred horses. And it’s reading about Ben Johnson from when he was competing, he’d get a big massage and then he’d go do a warmup and then he’d get another massage and do the next warmup drill. And just like they were constantly just making sure everything was working properly. And so in my mind I was having the fantasy that they treated you that well, too.
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, actually, we do message among us players, I mean, after the training there is not a specific person or a team that who can do it for us players. We’re just… We do some massage or we do some stretch to relax our muscle. And especially the feet, because otherwise next day or by way, be at it. Yeah. But actually, I mean, you just imagine that the massage of the feet is quite popular in China. I mean, actually, my parents are quite a huge fan about that. I mean, there is a specific city in China called Yanzhou, and here, it’s the origin, this culture, many people, they do it for a profession. Maybe they charge for $10 to $30 pay a time for once. Yeah. I have experienced once and well actually, I’m really fond of it and I hope that every day after the training someone can do it for me, but it’s quite too much expensive for me.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. Yeah. It’s a shame, I imagine, or I would hope that if you’re at the higher level they would be paying for that for you.
But yeah, it’s one of my fantasies is someday to be getting massaged, especially my feet on a regular basis at least once a week, because it’s just so delightful. So we moved into feet, let’s obviously chat shoes. And then screamingly obvious part is since you’re doing so much back and forth, obviously you need footwear that does two things. One can handle the lateral motion… And more than two things, but two that I’m going to start with. One that can handle the lateral motion and the other that’s got enough grip and traction to allow you to change direction very quickly. Then I don’t know how much it needs to be able to handle sliding occasionally as well. But talk to me about the footwear that either you started with or that you’ve started using maybe after you changed something like-
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, like footwear. Well, you mean what kind of shoes that are usually wear for match or for training, something like that?
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. And clearly, part of what inspired us to have this conversation is your understanding of something that is light, allows you to move, et cetera, lets you do what’s natural. Clearly getting some feedback from the ground is going to be important even if you’re on a flat surface. So I’m just dying to hear what your thoughts are about the footwear that you’ve been using and what makes it [inaudible 00:25:08]
Xinyu Cheng:
Actually, I’ve prepared two pair of shoes that I use from when I was a kid.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, really?
Xinyu Cheng:
And now, you want to see it?
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Xinyu Cheng:
Well, the first one is like this. Well, it’s quite similar. Yeah. I have checked your website. I mean, I’ve found some shoes that are quite, quite similar. This is a kind of shoes that I use for daily work, and I use it when I was keyed for training. And the characteristic is, how to say this part, I mean-
Steven Sashen:
The sole?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, the sole. Yeah, the sole. It’s quite not very thick. It’s quite very thin. And it’s quite in the style of minimalist. I mean, it’s quite a simple way, not some other shoes like basketball shoes, I mean, they usually, the sole is quire, quite, quite thick.
Steven Sashen:
Wait. Keep on that one for a second. A couple things. So, hold this, let me see the soul again? So, we can see there’s just the pattern on that the ball of the foot and the heel are designed for some traction obviously. And I’m curious how flexible is that?
Xinyu Cheng:
Flexible? I mean, if you want to bow it like this one?
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. Well, I’m just curious sort of where it bends for example or how it went-
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, yeah. It’s the same.
Steven Sashen:
Flex it that way.
Xinyu Cheng:
Interesting.
Steven Sashen:
And the one thing that I’m really curious about, hold it up again this way, the other thing that’s really interesting to me, because we make things, so that’s got a slightly wider toe box than most shoes that most athletic shoes are really pointy like this one. So, it’s a little wider, closer to a natural foot shape.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, when I was young I used to wear this part. The problem is that here is not so wide. So later I changed it in these shoes. I mean, this is a much more… Well, it’s a little bit dirty. But this is quite normal or more table tennis players and the badminton players, it’s quite similar that the sole is not very thick, it’s in the same way, but a huge difference in that which part it’s become wider. So, for us, especially for intensive match, it’s much more comfortable. And also maybe like-
Steven Sashen:
A little more flexible it seems?
Xinyu Cheng:
You can bow it this way. I mean, not flexible, but it’s okay.
Steven Sashen:
A little bit. I mean, I would argue looking at that that while it’s gotten wider at the ball of the foot, it would still probably need to be wider along the toes as well, because it still looks like it squeezes your toes together a bit.
Xinyu Cheng:
I agree with that. I mean, actually, if I have matched for two or three days intensively, sometimes after the match, this part, I mean, how to say this toe? They touched.
Steven Sashen:
In English or at least in America they say the pinky toe.
Xinyu Cheng:
The pinky toe. Yeah. I would find a little bit painful. The pinky toe. Yeah. Yeah. It’s quite annoying. But actually I have found that in the market all of the table tennis shoes are in this wide. So, I mean, perhaps they can make some innovation, make it wider. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Suffice it to say, I’m going to get you a pair of our shoes and I’m probably going to get you this one, we call this the 360. It’s designed for lateral motion. It’s definitely much wider across the ball of foot but also wider in the toes as well. I don’t know if it’ll be all right to play in. We’ll find that out. It’ll be very interesting, if so, and if not, I’ll be very curious to hear what your experience is about what we could do to make it better for table tennis. So, I think there’s a possibility we could help with that.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. I mean, such kind of shoes is quite popular and it’s like a standard one for almost 90% of table tennis playing where you wear the same style of shoes.
Steven Sashen:
That shoe?
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. On this-
Steven Sashen:
Literally, that literally that shoe? That product from that company?
Xinyu Cheng:
No. I mean, there’s a Japanese company called Mizuno or something like that. Well, such kind of shoes. I mean, some Butterfly or DONIC or some table tennis brands. But I suppose they’re not professionally making shoes. They’re much more professionally designing like table tennis rubbers or rackets. But when come to shoes, it’s not that professional. So it’s quite popular, but sometimes maybe not the best choices. Well, actually international team in China, the Chinese National Team, they have some incorporation with Nike, non-Nike or Li-Ning, or some shoes companies that they design specific shoes for every single player according to the size of their feet.
But I mean, normal people or ordinary people cannot have that privilege. So, they do not. For us, we have to choose what there is in the supermarket, in the market. And yeah, this one maybe. So it’s on the best, but it’s okay. So, yeah.
Steven Sashen:
No, I mean, of course, mentioning Li-Ning is fun for me because when I was growing up as a gymnast, Li-Ning was someone that I looked up to and admired because it was a few years older than me and watching how he was competing, he was one of the people I really looked up to and enjoyed. I hope him meet him someday. But this is true in for a lot of footwear for professional athletes is they’re getting something made for them. And then people think that when they’re buying the shoe that looks the same, it’s the same shoe, but it’s a completely different product. So this is a pretty common phenomenon.
Xinyu Cheng:
I agree with it. I totally agree with you. If we use it maybe for daily walk, there will be not so much difference, but difference is quite huge if we do some specific things intensively. Such as like in shoes.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. I mean, there are times where people have asked us to make some particular shoe for some specific use that I say, “I would love to do that, but there’s only five people in the world who actually need that and we just can’t afford to do that yet.” At some point I look forward to it when we can support more people doing some of these more interesting and unusual things, but we’re not quite there yet. So what else can you say just about how the footwear impacts two things. One, how you’re playing? What you’ve noticed? When you switch from the first shoe you show to the second shoe, what do you actually notice is the difference? Both in, again, the way you’re playing and also just how your feet feel while you’re playing or afterwards?
Xinyu Cheng:
Well, when I grow a little bit, bigger role, maybe when I was 18 or 19 years old, I started to realize that the first shoes were no longer suitable for me, because every time there will be no problem if I move back forward. But every time, if I move forward, I have just said the toe there will be touched edge of the shoe.
Steven Sashen:
Your foot is jamming into the front?
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Every time I move from the back court, to the short court, to the near court, there will be a problem for me. And I feel it’s quite, quite, quite annoying. So I begin to find someone, I know some shoes that is quite wider. So after, actually, those shoes, after trying that I find is, “Well, maybe it can solve 80% of the problem.” I mean, when I move from back way to forward, there will be less problems, I will be less annoyed and I’m fixed more on the match itself. I will not be affected by the feeling of it. So let’s say, the most impressive things that I can remember from basic experience. But when it comes to from moving from right to left, from left to right, I think, how to say that word? The smallest toes?
Steven Sashen:
The thinnest?
Xinyu Cheng:
How to say that? Thinnest? Yeah. The part that has been influenced most like is this thinnest toe. I mean, from left to right, this part have to be stand for the most force. And sometimes, if there is not enough weight, I will feel maybe.
Steven Sashen:
So, you need something that can handle the force of the lateral motion of basically of stopping more importantly or starting and stopping, but also wide enough so that you’re not essentially falling off the shoe when you’re starting or stopping?
Did I get that right?
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Exactly.
Steven Sashen:
Interesting. And it’s funny, I was at a rugby match a few months ago, which I had never been to and it was really fun. And every player was wearing a different pair of shoes because they had the ones that they liked and so they all did that. There was not a team shoe or something. Are there a lot of different table tennis shoes or really just a couple that people are choosing from? Other than the ones that people are getting custom made?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, sorry. I didn’t get your question.
Steven Sashen:
So, in the rugby match, it was interesting seeing that everyone had different shoes on. In table tennis, are there a lot of table tennis shoes or just a couple and ignoring the ones that are custom made?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, well, there’s not so much customized shoes. It’s quite standard. I mean, because we do not have so much options or choices that we can choose from.
Steven Sashen:
That’s what that’s curious about. If you were going to go to a regular store to find a shoe for table tennis, how many options are there?
Xinyu Cheng:
Only we can choose the size and the brand. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Wow.
Xinyu Cheng:
Well, I have to say table tennis players, they pay much more attention to the rubber they use, the racket that they use. How to match them? Which one is better? But few people pay attention to what’s shoes they wear or-
Steven Sashen:
Huh?
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. So I mean, especially, the amateur or some amateur players they didn’t realize the importance of it. So they don’t pay much attention to it. But one interesting is, I have noticed that in my club, everyone, or I cannot say all of them, but maybe 80% of people, they just wear their own shoes or layer shoes are not a typical table tennis brand, like Butterfly or DONIC or something like that. They just buy shoes from other professional products or professional brands that they are focused on making shoes and they tell they, I mean, one time once we just stay together and we talk about these things, they said that… Yeah. Exactly.
Steven Sashen:
I can’t imagine a time in America where if you walk into a store, they’ll have a section for table tennis shoes. But I almost can imagine that in China for either table tennis or badminton. But I haven’t seen that yet. So that’s why I was curious.
Xinyu Cheng:
No. In China it’s not that crazy. In China, it’s like this, I mean, it has nothing to do with the country in those China, Spain, here, the same, I mean, we have little choice. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
I mean, people associated table tennis with China and China has always been dominant for quite a while. What are the other countries that are just consistently producing good players?
Xinyu Cheng:
Germany.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, interesting.
Xinyu Cheng:
In Germany, they’re almost one of the countries that can replace China maybe in the future, before maybe Japan is also a country with great potential. But I have to say Germany is in the second place now. Maybe, if one day China cannot dominate the world, dominating this area, I think Germany will be the one. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Do you know if their training program is similar where you’ve got to start at three or four, et cetera? I mean, what is it that’s making them so good? Is it similar program or a different program? Do you know?
Xinyu Cheng:
Mm-hmm. I mean, the program is quite similar. Before the COVID, before that, there will be exchange of the training system of the program that between these countries, between China, Japan, these Asian countries and European countries like Germany and France. Yeah. It’s quite similar. I mean, there is not so much difference. Before I was in China and now I’m in Spain, it’s quite similar, the training program. But maybe in China, the difference in that, there are more people that there are more people who are fond of it. Yeah.
Here, people maybe are fund of football or basketball.
Steven Sashen:
Well, I mean, there’s some people who argue that most of the advances in most sports is because there’s just a larger selection of people to choose from now than there was 20 years ago or 30 years ago, 40 years ago. So it becomes somewhat self-selecting. You’re just getting more people trying sometimes more incentive and put those two things together and that’s going to make a big difference.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Well, the population, the selection is quite, quite important issue, just take Chinese football. And for any example, there are only 8,000 registered football players in China.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, wow.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. So that’s why we got poor grade, poor performance in-
Steven Sashen:
The other sports where there’s many, many times 8,000 who are playing in China, but clearly football, soccer is not one of them.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. But take Japan as an example, our neighbor. There are times they have richest players then us. So, as we can see in the World Cup, Japan these years, they haven’t made huge progress. And sometimes can even be qualified in quarter final. No, maybe it’s final. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
So, is there an age where most table tennis players peak?
Xinyu Cheng:
Peak? Maybe other sports, among their 20s until 30s, in their golden age. I mean, it’s such… They have accumulated sufficient experience in the match and then their technique become mature and they have also some, I mean, the condition of their body or maybe their wellbeing are in the best time in their whole life. So there are some exception. Like Timo Boll, the German player who is still in his peak now currently in German, I mean, he’s 40 now, he’s over 40 now.
Steven Sashen:
Oh, wow.
Xinyu Cheng:
But this is an exception, but for most players they get their highest grade or best grade in maybe one year, 20 through 24, 25 or 28, at least at 28. After 30 is they have trouble moving a lot like football players, well table tennis players, maybe the situation is better, they can still move, but they depends more on the experience on almost being on some technique, on some strategy. Not on the speed, on the stress. That’s quite different.
Steven Sashen:
This question just popped in my head. Is there a problem in table tennis with performance enhancing drugs?
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, to enhance the stimulants?
Steven Sashen:
Well, I’m thinking if you’re going to take a performance enhancing drug for table tennis, it would most likely be some sort of stimulant. It’s not necessarily about becoming bigger and stronger, it’s about becoming reflexively.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah, there is. There is. I mean, I can tell you an interesting story that several years ago, there was a fan of [inaudible 00:42:42] that is quite popular in China, but he is not absolutely professional players. He train his stimulus with paddle with a racket that’s made by metal. Normally it is made by wood. Yeah.
But he made a paddle weight maybe iron or something like that. So it’s much, much, much heavier. And he just stick it with rubber and then he practiced way later every day. So after he put it aside and he take his bag, he take back his wooden racket and his strength and all the thing is quite easy for him.
Steven Sashen:
That’s hysterical.
Xinyu Cheng:
Oh, my God. The ball is just quite super speed and all of his opponent… Oh, my God.
Steven Sashen:
So that’s funny because it reminded me when I was a gymnast, I broke my foot and while my leg was in a cast, I thought, “Oh, let’s do a lot of strength training because that way when I get out of the cast, I’ll be even stronger.” But when I got out of the cast, everything was so unbalanced that I couldn’t do anything. So, I was thinking if you trained with a heavier, a heavier paddle, heavier racket, may be that it throws your timing off so badly instead of just being-
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Well, yeah. But for us, I mean, semiprofessional or professional, we have to do some weightlifting. Yeah. There are various kinds of exercise, but always over that weightlifting. But sometimes we use smaller one to do some movements like this not like them just to move upwards. We do some movement with that and it’s effective way to improve the stimulants or some strength. Yeah.
Steven Sashen:
Yeah. I like it. Is there anything else you can think of when I wrap this up? Is there anything else you can think of that you would want to share just about either table tennis in general or whatever you’ve discovered about feet and footwear since that’s part of what we talk about here? Anything else that we left out?
Xinyu Cheng:
Okay. Yeah. I’ll just say that when it’s come to the minimalist of shoes, there is quite a popular shoes before in China that every method is most were welcomed by men. It’s black shoes, but the sole is made of cloth, not of rubber or leather or something like that. It’s made of clothes. So before maybe 60s, 70s, or 80s. Or people love to wear it because it’s much more comfortable and it’s soft. But actually after several years, there are some so-called experts and then they say that it’s not good for the feet because it’s too much, too much soft and it cannot give enough support for the feet. So maybe sometimes people will suffer from pain after wearing it or working it for a long time. Well, personally, I haven’t confirmed with that. So I just want to confirm with you, is this right or do you agree with that?
Steven Sashen:
They’re totally wrong. I mean, all I can say is that we have now many hundreds of thousands of people who have proven that having something really thin, really flexible, really lightweight has been better for them. Our position is, anything that gets in the way of letting your feet do what’s natural is going to be problematic. And we see that over and over. I like to say that with Xero issue, we’re not doing anything other than getting out of the way. And typically, the things that people have said when they suggest anything otherwise is because they have some ability to make money by suggesting something else, because I just haven’t seen any evidence. It’s a funny thing when I’m debating people who make traditional footwear. I don’t have to say anything positive about what we are doing. Most of the time, all I have to say is where’s your proof? And so I highlight how in the 60s and 70s, people were doing all sorts of sports in very thin, lighter weight, flexible shoes, usually a little too narrow, but otherwise very similar to what we’re doing. And I point out that there weren’t the number of injuries or the type of injuries or severity of injuries that we see now since the advent of the modern athletic shoe that looks like this with a big flared sole and a lot of cushioning and padding and elevated heel, et cetera.
And it’s hard for them to argue because they know that it’s true. Or I say the other point is, similarly, I was having this argument with somebody on YouTube who’s a footwear designer in Europe, and he was saying, these big companies have spent millions of dollars on research and development every year. I said, “Then why haven’t injury rates changed in the last 50 years?” Injury rates are pretty consistent among runners, for example, in the last 50 years. If their research and development departments were so good, we’d see improvements. And that’s just not happening.
Xinyu Cheng:
Yeah. Interesting.
Steven Sashen:
So, it’s just a lot of people telling stories that are not true.
Xinyu Cheng:
To be honest, there are so many such programs currently that they advocated some so-called healthy lifestyle. But actually, it’s misleading people. But many people, especially my parents, they are quite easily affected by such programs. Maybe one day a so-called expert says this is good for feet. Well, sometimes even him himself hasn’t confirmed that or proved that. And maybe my mother will be confirmed by him, yes. So that’s what I’m most-
Steven Sashen:
No. We’ve had so many people who were told that they couldn’t wear our shoes because it would harm them. And then they decide to try it anyway because they like the idea of letting your feet do what’s natural makes sense. And then they find that they’re feeling better as a result. And then they report that back to their doctor or whomever told them. And the doctor will still say, “Yeah, that’s not true.” But I’m telling you, here’s my experience.
And part of it is that the story from the big shoe companies has been going on like this for 50 years. So it’s taken enough time that everyone believes it now, we have to do something different to get them out of that. So anyway, I’ve got to actually wrap this up. This has been a real pleasure. I love when I learned about things that I know very, very little about. And you gave me a great introduction to table tennis and what’s involved in playing both mentally, physically, super excited. I actually want to dive in more and learn much more. That doesn’t mean I’m going to go play because I don’t have enough time, but I love the idea doing that, too. So if people want to get in touch with you, especially if they want to learn more about table tennis, can you tell me how they can get in touch with you?
Xinyu Cheng:
I have a personal website and the URL is www.ppongsuper.com. Yeah, that’s my personal website. Well, There’s a contact form. Yeah, there’s a contact form and my personal email on that website and people can just leave a message to me.
Steven Sashen:
Awesome. Well, I hope this has inspired people to go to ppongsuper.com to find out more about playing table tennis. If especially anyone who’s already been playing who wants to now improve their game and improve their health when they’re playing, that’d be really, really fun.
So, this has been a total, total pleasure. I really appreciate you being here. And just for everyone else, I hope you enjoyed that as well. And just a reminder, go back to www.jointhemovementmovement.com to find previous episodes and all the ways you can interact with us on social media, et cetera. And if you have any questions or recommendations, people you think should be on the show, you can drop me an email. I’m at move, M-O-V-E, @jointhemovementmovement.com. And most importantly, until then, until the next episode, go out, have fun and live life feet first.
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