S1E61 - Alissa & Alex on Surviving the Justice System

Episode Summary

Brooke talks with Alissa and Alex about horrors of the legal system. She walks through both of their legal ordeals from the circumstances of their targeting, arrests, court appearances, and current statuses. Alissa and Alex were both arrested separately in connection to violence from the far Right.

Guest Info

Alissa Azar (she/they) is currently in need of support to retain legal services. You can find her fundraiser at https://donorbox.org/help-alissa-get-proper-legal-defense. You can also find her on Instagram @r3volutiondaddy, or on Twitter @AlissaAzar.

Alex (He/him) can be found on Mastodon @betacuck4life.

Host Info

Brooke can be found at Strangers helping up keep our finances intact and on Twitter and Mastodon @ogemakweBrooke

Publisher Info

This show is published by Strangers in A Tangled Wilderness. We can be found at www.tangledwilderness.org, or on Twitter @TangledWild and Instagram @Tangled_Wilderness. You can support the show on Patreon at www.patreon.com/strangersinatangledwilderness.

Transcript

Surviving the Justice System with Alissa and Alex

Brooke 00:14 Hello and welcome to Live Like the World is Dying, your podcast for what feels like the end times. I'm Brooke Jackson, your host for this episode. Today we are talking with a couple of wonderful leftists about their experiences with the American court system, and how they've been supported by their community and by mutual aid. Without revealing your names or any details, would each of you like to say, "hi" or "hello" to our audience?

Alissa 00:37 Hi.

Alex 00:40 Hello

Brooke 00:45 All right, before we officially unveil today's guests, you know I gotta show some love to fellow members of the Channel Zero network of anarchist podcasts. So let's hear a little about one of those other cool pods. Doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo doo.

Brooke 01:52 And we're back. Friends, thank you for joining me today to talk about the injustice of our justice system. Would you please each actually introduce yourselves and share your pronouns?

Alissa 02:02 My name is Alissa Azar. She/They.

Alex 02:04 My name is Alexander Dial. He/him.

Brooke 02:12 Well, thank you. So both of these friendly, lovely folks have had to deal with, as I just said, the injustice of our justice system. They've both been arrested and charged with crimes. And Alex has been through kind of the whole system: jail, bail, going to court, living on probation, including having to do community service and reporting to a probation officer. And Alissa is kind of in the midst of that grinding system with some uncertainty in the future of what's going to happen. So, why don't we go ahead and you know, if each of you want to take a few minutes and kind of tell us a little bit about your backstory of, you know, the circumstances in which you were arrested and what happened there and, Alex, it's your turn to go first.

Alex 02:56 Okay, yeah, I was arrested on August 17, 2019. At sort of a big deal to-do street event here in Portland, Oregon. Much Ado was made about this thing, by the far Right, mostly from out of town CHUDs you know. As usual, it's pretty typical for most of the time for us to get invaded....Although it's probably worth noting that they haven't been around lately. I got picked up after a couple of well publicized confrontations. Probably the most famous one was the the bus incident, which I suppose we can get into in detail in a bit here. But, I was arrested that day, and taken into custody, released and then subsequently taken back into custody a little later under some, I don't know probably typically shitty circumstances with regards to how our legal system works here, especially when it comes to cases that are media sensitive, I guess you might say. And today is actually kind of a special day with regards to all of that, which is something else we'll get into I suppose when the time comes, but I've been put through the wringer and am just now getting out the other end here nearly five years later.

Brooke 04:21 Yikes. Okay, I'm gonna circle back to more details of the of the 'bus incident' in a second. But Alissa, if you want to tell us a little bit of your story, too, and feel free to throw in some more details to

Alissa 04:32 Yeah, so I probably should have said this in my intro, but I am an independent journalist. I don't work for anyone but myself and the community and my situation, actually it was another, you know, fascist invasion. There was a counter protest to a demonstration that was going on countering the Proud Boys and I was there that day as a journalist. I was reporting and covering the event. And it was it was a pretty wild and scary day. I'll get into more detail about that too, later. But anyways, I would say like, maybe five or six months or so after that day had passed, I had received an indictment in the mail notifying me that a grand jury found me guilty and that the DA was pressing charges, including felony charges. And, yeah, it's been, it's been really, really difficult, you know, that in conjunction with, you know, something else that happened more recently, just finding myself being targeted for the journalism and, you know, the coverage that I do provide, both by the State and by, you know, just citizens of the United States that are, you know, members of the far Right. And yeah, it's been Hell to say the least, and not in a good way, not the good kind of Hell.

Brooke 06:12 Yeah, I should have said this more at the top too, just to really emphasize how grateful I am that you're here and willing to talk about it when you're, you know, in the middle of going through this hell. I mean, that's I that's got to be incredibly difficult. And I'm just really grateful that you were willing to make the time and talk about it with us.

Alissa 06:31 Thank you. Yeah, I really appreciate that. My my trial is finally set. It's just a few months away. My trials in April. So yeah, definitely a mixed bag of feelings and emotions, for sure.

Brooke 06:45 Yeah, I can only imagine. Alex, I want to circle back to you.

Alex 06:52 Sure.

Brooke 06:54 Because I think the details of the bus incident. People probably heard the story or will remember it. I certainly remember seeing the photo which was some what iconic. If you want to just briefly talk about what happened on that day.

Alex 07:09 Sure. Yeah, um, you know, it was a day like any other. I woke up, donned to my armor, stepped into the streets to confront an invasion of fascists from out of town. You know, regular Thursday stuff. That particular day, I mean, I've been to a lot of protests, I have been an activist for longer than I've been an adult and, you know, things do get sort of predictably hairy, but everybody remembers how the tone in the streets really shifted, probably starting right around 2016. You know, I don't really remember that sort of ruckus, since like, the WTO stuff back in the day, you know, I mean, I mean, barring like a few other flashes in the pan, but the situation out there, just kept escalating, you know, for years, and I was down in Southern California, for the first part of that time, you know, and then I moved up here to Portland, and I was like, "Well, I'm still an American. So I guess I'm gonna get back out there." So out there I went. And that day was a mess. You know, I mean, everybody remembers how....The way that the Right had been touting this event as like a 'bloodbath.' And I need it in their words, "Buy guns," said Joe Biggs, you know, "Bring ammunition. Get concealed carry permits." He was showing off a baseball bat covered in spikes that had Trump's name on it, specifically related to this event. That day, August 17, 2019. You know, they were talking about like, 'taking the the streets of Portland,' and like, 'cleansing' them. I mean, this is all their language, you know, I'm quoting them. So we were, you know, understandably pretty alarmed out here. And, I wasn't running around out there with an affinity group at the time. You know, I had been out in the streets before then. So people, some people recognized me, but

Brooke 09:28 You were doing group OpSec wearing your betacuck shirt too?

Alex 09:32 Well, you know, a lot of people ask me about that. And the answer I usually give people is, you know, I don't think it's always appropriate to make ourselves small and to shrink back from these threats. You know, there's a time to present yourself and I feel like they were talking about coming here and murding us. And I was like, "Well, at least they're gonna recognize me. They're gonna know who they're trying to kill," you know?

Brooke 10:09 Yeah.

Alex 10:12 So, you know, the day really wasn't too extraordinary. I mean weirdly enough. I mean, it's crazy to say that now, but at the time, in terms of a Portland Street event, during those years, it was like, not that weird. In fact, kind of low key. There weren't really that many really gnarly confrontations I was party to or saw. But, things got really pretty wild when the Nazi bus came back. A lot of people don't know that they they left. And by the time I confronted them along with, you know, many other Portlanders up on the bridge. They had left Portland and had turned around and come back to reconfront us.

Brooke 10:59 And then for listeners who might not know, you know, talk about what specifically happened with you and them in that bus.

Alex 11:06 So, we should start, I think by talking about who was on the bus, because this has been, you know, contested information in certain parts of the internet. The people on that bus were primarily hardcore Neo Nazis, from a group called the American Guard. These were not just like Trump supporters or Second Amendment enthusiasts, although they were both, you know what I mean? These people were members of a hate group, tied to the Vinlinders Social Club, which is another group of Neo Nazis founded by Brian James. And they've been linked to a handful of murders here in the United States. So they're very dangerous people. And I knew who they were. That's the thing. I knew who was on that bus. So, when I saw them on the bridge, after having already watched them leave town, I was like, "They came back." You know? There were some people down there with me in the streets, a couple of people I had, you know, sometimes just sort of snowball with people that you meet out there and your roll together for safety, you know? So I was out there with a couple of people I had met, and I saw the bus up there on the on the bridge, and we talked about it, and I was like, "That's the American Guard." You know, "They came back," and we talked it over a little bit. And I said, "Well, let's go get them." And so we went up there. And we didn't actually assault the bus, which was a popular meme at the time of Right wing media, espoused in particular by our very own fascists propagandist, Andy Ngo, we didn't attack the bus, unless you count like a couple of thrown plastic half full water bottles and me flipping them the bird, you know, people stood around, they shouted at the bus, we heckled them. And then they opened the doors. And the first person who came out of that bus had an eight inch blade in his right hand. They had been brandishing both a pistol and a hammer through the windows before they stepped outside. So, we knew they were armed. The doors open, they came outside, and for better or for worse, an elderly man who was among us rushed to the doors, and apparently startled the first Nazi, the one with the knife, who fell on his ass just immediately.

Alex 13:55 Right, yeah. And a little tussle ensued between this old man and this Nazi. And during that scuffle, the man in the bus, one of the other Neo Nazis, an American Guard member named Mark Kwan, the one who had been brandishing the hammer through the windows, he stepped into the doorway above the fight going on in the door of the bus and started swinging this claw hammer down at the skull of this elderly man, who at that point was losing the fight that that he had gotten into, and was in the process of being abducted into the bus by the formerly knife wielding Nazi who had dropped his MAGA hat. I saw what was happening. I set down my water bottle, which was made of metal you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't want anyone to get hurt. So, I ran up there and I seized the hammer in mid swing from Mark Kwan. Mr. Kwan. And together with some of my allies from Portland, we wrestled it away. The Nazis fell back into the bus. They released the elderly man. I tossed their hammer back inside, where it you know, allegedly glanced Mr. Kwan, although there are no victims in my case, and nobody was ever able to contact him for some reason. Yeah, it's crazy.

Brooke 13:55 Yay!

Brooke 15:34 Mysterious, Mr. Kwan.

Alex 15:35 Yes, it's wild. Yes, that Mr. Kwan, if he exists, that was written in my case file by my attorney, "Mr. Kwan, if he exists." And this prosecution never followed up on whether he exists. The door is closed. I kicked in one of the panels on the doors, you know, just having witnessed and attempted murder in process. My blood was a little up. I do admit it. And a nameless hero released a cloud of tear gas into the bus and the bus sped away down the completely open lane in front of them that they could have taken at any time. And yeah, that was the story. That's the Bus Incident. The whole confrontation took, I don't know, maybe six seconds, perhaps. And it's informed my life for nearly five years.

Brooke 16:28 Yeah. Were you immediately arrested at that point?

Alex 16:30 I was not immediatly arrested. I was arrested nearly an hour and a half later.

Brooke 16:37 Okay.

Alex 16:38 Yeah, I had an opportunity to help some other people.

Brooke 16:41 Yeah. So that's interesting. It was still the same day, same event. But, a little while later in that, and at the time, were you arrested for the bus incident, specifically? Or for---[Alex interupts]

Alex 16:54 Yeah. So, that's a really interesting contrast to Alissa, what you were saying because, you know, you went to the event, and you went home, and it was months later. So, I'm curious if you are able to talk at all about what actually happened the day of the event, and then what you were later accused of doing and charged with?

Alex 16:54 I'm assuming so. It's tough to say. The the paperwork I got is a little unclear as to what the probable cause was. It cites reports that the Portland Police had received reports from people.... I mean, the truth is that Andy Ngo poached that footage from Elijah Schaefer. And they gave it directly to the Portland Police, who took it as evidence and snatched me up at the first opportunity. But, it might not have been that video that did it. It could have been something else they referenced. The paperwork isn't really clear on that. And in my case, is closed now, so I can talk about it all. But, it's tough to say really what it is precisely that got the cops to get me, but when they tackled me, this gaggle of bacon-backs, [Brooke and Alissa laugh] you know, and stomped me into the pavement and tried to tase me, but couldn't because I was wearing a bulletproof vest, they told me I was under arrest for assault. So, you know, I mean, but that's really all they're gonna tell you. The cops are not really well known for, for knowing things.

Alissa 17:32 Yeah, I'll share as much as I can without, you know, like I said, before, my situation is ongoing and my trial's in April. So and it's, you know, it's not that I have anything to hide at all, but you know, we, we all know, here, how the State works and how they love us everything and anything against us. So yeah, as I mentioned earlier, the event that I was documenting and reporting on was a counter to the Proud Boys. And this was in September of 2021. So, it was during a time when things were really, really tense in the pacific northwest. This is after, you know, a lot of growing tension, a lot of escalated escalation from the fascists, you know, after being used to night after night at protests of them doing drive bys and throwing, you know, IEDs and pipe bombs at us and just, you know, just a bunch of shit that had been going on and in Portland and surrounding areas. So yeah, we were we were at a park. And also, I just want to disclaimer, my memory is like, pretty fucking shitty, especially since then. That day, I actually got punched in the head by A Proud Boy who's an MMA fighter and like four times my size, and I got a major concussion that I'm like still dealing with. And then also, trauma hasn't really been great for my memory. But yeah, we were all in a park. And the group of leftists who were there was not very large. I can't remember off the top of my head, how many people were there. But, compared to other events, it was a relatively small crowd. And up until the point that I'm about to get to, there was just a lot of like, back and forth, yelling and whatnot. And eventually, the Proud Boys got closer and closer. And the group of leftist somehow ended up being surrounded. There was basically a circle of Proud Boys just trying to intimidate everyone and up to this point, even when everyone was circled, they were still just standing there in an attempt to intimidate everybody,. Just trying to look tough. And what really kind of sparked things off is I remember I was kind of standing like in the middle of the circle and there was like a group of people in front of me who allegedly...I don't know if it's a flag that they had or if they stole it from the Fasc, but I believe that it was an American flag, and they set it on fire on the ground.

Brooke 21:35 That's what that flags for. [Laughs]

Alissa 21:39 And I was kneeling down filming and then it just like popped off so quick. As soon as they saw that the flag was on fire, they got so triggered. They came in and like pushed the people right in front of me and like, just, yeah, that's when kind of shit hit the fan....Like, fuck, where do I go from here? There's just so much that happened.

Alex 22:07 You know, the reason they did that...I mean, I don't mean to interrupt your flow here, but they....

Alissa 22:11 No, go ahead.

Alex 22:12 The reason they did that is because they have their own camera people. They've got all these amatuer, you know, right wing Grifters trying to sell footage, and also the Proud Boys and their ilk, they sell this footage to each other to get each other to join. So, they see Antifa burning a flag. And if no one retaliates, they all look weak.

Alissa 22:38 Yeah, 100%.

Alex 22:39 Yeah, so that's why they rushed y'all right there. You know? I mean, it's not a justification, but that's the deal.

Alissa 22:46 Yeah, they definitely have a game plan for sure. And yeah, I just remember things being really chaotic. There's a lot of people that got injured that day. Yeah, at one point....I mean, before that, like, I was like walking around, filming, taking pictures. And like, I was just getting threats left and right. Like, for what? Like being a photographer?Like what? Like, yeah, this one lady kept being like, "You and me, we're going to tango." And it's so funny, because it's the lady who like, all the Right wingers and Andy Ngo, keep calling like an 'innocent bystander.' And she just kept, like following me, and she's like, "You and me, we're gonna tango." And I'm like, "Girl, I'm not here to fight anybody. Like, just leave me alone. Let me take my fucking picture." Things just. Yeah, things just got pretty crazy. Some of them were like, going after individuals to like, you know, attack them violently. Other people were going towards...It wasn't a gazebo, but there was like this covered area where a bunch of people had stuff at. I had some of my stuff there, too. I remember having like a charger and I think my phone was over there. And like, people were going over there like, some of the Fascists were going over there and like stealing signs and stealing people's shit and stuff. And yeah, it was just really bad. One of the last things I remember, like I said, I got punched in the head. I didn't faint or anything, but like, it was a really bad punch. And I stood up right away. And at that point, the cops had like, come in. And they declared it and unlawful assembly, I believe,

Alex 24:45 After you got assaulted?

Brooke 24:48 Of course, as they do.

Alissa 24:51 Yeah, they declared it an unlawful assembly. It was really weird because the Leftist were trying to leave, like out of the park and go the way that the cops are telling them to go, because it was definitely not a situation where people could like stand their ground. Like, I think that was like the smart thing to do at the time. And I just remember, like, I was being escorted by a medic. And like, I think it was two medics actually holding me. I don't know, I couldn't really see much or like, whatever. But I just remember thinking like, "What the fuck is happening?" because, like, as we're trying to get out of there, and the cops were coming in declaring it an unlawful assembly, it wasn't any longer just the Proud Boys that everyone had had that confrontation with beforehand, like leading up to that moment. All of a sudden, there was this new group of Proud Boys, larger than the group that had already been there, all marching in together with like shields and weapons, like, coming towards us, like walking through the cops, walking with the cops. And it's just like, it was just like, the perfect example of like, "Cops and clan go hand in hand." And it was like they were coming towards the group together, even though they had just declared it unlawful. Like, these guys were still welcome to come in. And mind you, like, you know, most people were just like I said, they're just trying to get out of there. Or you know, there was also quite a few people who were hurt that day. So yeah, it was just it was chaotic in the worst way possible.

Brooke 26:37 Yeah. And so then a few months go by, and I think you said it was a letter that came in the mail that let you know?

Alissa 26:43 Yeah, I got a letter in the mail that said I was indicted.

Alex 26:48 You're a crimer now. [Laughs]

Alissa 26:54 [Starts] Sorry...I'm like, trying to separate my charges from like, my most recent, bullshit arrest.

Alex 27:00 Oh, God, no, I can totally relate to that.

Alissa 27:05 I'm being charged with Relony Riot, Unlawful Use of Tear Gas, and Disorderly Conduct.

Alex 27:15 Tear gas? Like 'you're' deploying tear gas?

Alissa 27:18 And the best part about it is like my uterus is literally beyond fucked up because of the frequent exposure to the State's deployment of tear gas....

Alex 27:29 [Interuptiing] Yeah, that's right. I totally forgot about that. That's like a thing.

Alissa 27:35 Oh, it's definitely a thing. I know multiple people who...[trails off] Yeah, I'm the bad guy here.

Brooke 27:44 Okay, So after you get this letter in the mail, I assume it's telling you have to appear at some point, probably or something like that? Yeah?

Alissa 27:52 Yeah.

Brooke 27:53 And so then you didn't you know, didn't have to go to jail. You didn't have to post bail for that. But they did. You just got picked up by the police, right? They pulled you in and harassed you a time or two. Do you feel like talking about that? Can you talk about that?

Alissa 28:06 Yeah, you're talking about the most recent arrest?

Brooke 28:14 Yes.

Alissa 28:18 So yeah, that. Let's see, I'm like "What is time?" That happened probably like just under a month ago. It was the day after Christmas. And I was pulling in to park in front of my place. And the second I parked, I see this white SUV. it didn't look like a police vehicle. It was just a white SUV. It was coming towards me from the opposite direction. And as soon as I was opening my door, it stopped and parked right next to my car. The sirens go on. And then at that point, there was an additional four to five cop cars that were parked on the side of the street. All undercover vehicles.

Alex 29:14 [Exclaiming in incredulity] Four to five?!

Alissa 29:16 Yeah, yeah. And all of their sirens and their lights turned on. And I was super confused. I have no idea what this could be about. So yeah, they...[trails off] I'm like, how into detail do I go? Again, this is also like an ongoing thing. This is very recent. So...

Brooke 29:16 Yeah, I'm more just looking for like, what the experience of being you know, arrested was like, you know, like, I feel like if I was in that moment, I would be like, "Are they coming from the guy next to me? Is there someone over there?" because it would be hard to believe that that many police had shown up for a little old me

Alex 30:00 [Joking] You warrant that sort of turnout. I mean, come on. Wow.

Alissa 30:04 For sure. It was very bizarre. At the moment, I was kind of like, I would say I was mainly just really fucking confused. Especially because they would not tell me why I was like...First I was like, "Am I being pulled over? Like, what's going on?" And then they had me get out of the car. They wouldn't tell me anything. It felt like I was being kidnapped, which I was kidnapped. And, you know, I went to the precinct. Still did not tell me like what was going on. They said that they wanted to question me. I said, "Lawyer." The questioning never happened. They didn't like that. [laughs] It wasn't until after....so we went to the precinct and then they took me to the Justice Center. It wasn't until after I was booked that I even found out what my charges are, which got changed like a million times. But yeah, it was really scary. Because that was almost a full day. Because when I when they picked me up, it was quite early in the morning. And that whole day, I didn't know, why I was in there. I didn't know anything. I just knew that they had me and they have the power to do whatever the fuck they want. So I was terrified. I, you know, I was like, I have no way to like, contact anyone and tell them what's going on. It was like, you know, my partner is probably trying to reach me, and is like, "What the fuck is happening?" Yeah, again, like, a very mixed bag of emotions and feelings. But yeah, that type of stuff is really scary. Especially when, you know, let's be realistic, when you're in that kind of situation we don't really have any power to do anything. And it fucking sucks, feeling so helpless and hopeless. And you know, they know that. Yeah, yeah. Like where do I start?

Alex 32:10 I gotta tell you that, the story of that arrest there. That's worse than I thought it was going to be. I wasn't anticipating it to be quite so persistently merciless. I mean, they can just detain you and not tell you shit. But, a lot of the time, you know, they don't hang on to you for the whole day and never say anything to you. I mean, because the other thing is that cops cops are cruel. But, also they're like, apathetic, you know, like some, some ass wipe pig is going to say something to you, you know, or someone who's just working a desk that day is just going to be like, "Oh, here," you know, and say whatever. Yeah, and it's wild to me that, um, that they were so dedicated to keeping you in the dark that day, the whole day. Yeah, it's intense. It's worse than I thought it was

Alex 33:06 Yeah, it's bad.

Brooke 33:09 So, again, I'm interested in the in the contrast here, because Alex, if you want to talk about, you know, you were arrested that day, we started talking about that. So you kind of knew why you were being arrested. But, then you also got booked and I actually don't know if you've spent some jail time right then or if you got out sooner or what happened. But if you want to tell yours?

Alex 33:35 Fucking Cops.

Alex 33:35 Yeah, yeah, the story of what happened to me on the on the day. That was the day. They didn't really seem all that interested in me, actually. I mean, they kicked my ass a little bit, of course, like they do. Like the arrest was like six officers and they like stepped on my fingers and tried to tase me and got frustrated when they couldn't and then, you know, knelt on my head and stuff. And I was like, "What am I under arrest for?" And they answered me with one word, and they just went "Assault" and I went, "Who?" because you know, I mean, it had been a busy day. So, they took me in that day, and I was stuck in holding. I never actually made it to jail proper, you know, I just sat. When they took me to the station, they stripped me down completely to my underwear. They put me in a paper jumpsuit. Oh, yeah, they got me. Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, they saw they saw at all. I have a bunch of boyfriends down at the police station.

Alex 33:44 No, no, no, no, it didn't go down like that, I promise. But they stuck me in a cell. They left those plastic fucking cuffs on me honestly. Well, you know if I'm starting from the beginning, honestly, the first thing that happened was they they threw me in paddy wagon and let me sit in there for, I don't know, an hour and a half, maybe. And they through a woman in the room next to me, because you know, those are side by sides. It's like two long horse stalls next to each other. And you can't see into the other one. But there are these vents, these corrugated vents, you know. So there's air exchange, and you can hear everything, but you can't see. And there's someone in there who's crying and screaming in pain. I mean.

Alissa 35:31 Oh my God.

Alex 35:32 Oh, yeah. Like somebody was hurt, you know? So, I started talking to her, and I was like, "Hey, hey, what's happened to you?" You know, and she was like, "My shoulder. My shoulder is broken."

Alissa 35:46 Oh, my God

Alex 35:47 I was like, "Are you sure it's broken?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "Did the police do it to you?" And she said, "Yes". And I was like, "Do they have you in cuffs?" And she was like, "Yes." And I was like, "Okay." Um, so I just started talking to her, you know. I told her my name, and I just started to talk to her, you know, and I was like, "Look, they're gonna take us somewhere, and you're, you're probably going to get medical attention. But I mean, they might not give it to you." So I was like, "The thing you got to do is stay calm and just breathe, you know, because the pain is not going to stop, but you can manage it. So you got to breathe." So we sat there, and we breathed. And we drove eventually, I mean, after a long, long time, but she was in a ton of pain. And later I reconnected with her after a long time, nine months or something. And it turned out to be...Well, well, I don't know that I have her permission to talk about her. But she made a name for herself twerking on the streets. She was twerking on the streets that day. And, you know, I doubt I doubt she would mind being brought up here, but I don't have her explicit permission. So, you know. And she said, she'd been looking for me. She was like, "I didn't know that was you that was talking to me." And when we pulled over into the police station, I started yelling at the cost. "I was like, You need to get her out of here and get her help. She's hurt." And they just left her in there. They took me out and they processed me right away. And they just left her in there. And she's in there. Like, I mean, practically screaming still, you know, she was a lot of pain. It was it was terrible. And we'd been sitting in there for over an hour. Yeah, and then I couldn't feel my thumbs for a couple of days after that ride because they didn't take the cuffs off. They didn't take my cuffs off even after they brought me into the building and processed me and stripped me down. They left those fucking cuffs on me. They took them off, they put them back on and then they stuck me in a freezing cold concrete room in a paper jumpsuit. And Detective Clifton came in and asked me for my side of the story, and I said "Lawyer." But actually what I told him that I wanted to wait for my attorney, and then he came in later with some other cop who was really rude to me. And then Clifton came back and spoke to me again and he was really nice. And I was like, "Oh, so you're good cop, right?" They didn't come back to talk to me again after that.

Brooke 35:57 Yeah, of course.

Alex 36:19 Call them out.

Brooke 37:56 So, you were in the holding you said for the whole day...

Alex 38:28 I was. I was there until the night time yet.

Brooke 38:42 Okay, and then did you get out after that? Or did they then move you over into jail or?

Alex 38:51 I walked out on OR, our I walked out on my Own Recognizance that day. They stomped my ass into the street. They put me in a paper jumpsuit. They zip tied me and then they and they immediately lost my shoes. Like when they let me out, they kept my clothes because my clothes were evidence you see. Yeah, I mean, I just think they liked the way I smelled. But they kept my clothes. They lost my shoes and then they turned me loose. My roommate at the time, he came to get me and I was dressed like an extra from Miami Vice. I had these giant like two big pants on, like jeans and this huge like vaporwave Hawaiian shirt, and and these orange prison crocs. You know they give you these like foam sandals to wear when you're in jail. I still have those. Yeah, I use them to I use them when I shovel shit out of the barn. They're perfect.

Brooke 39:56 Well, I have a person close to me who has been arrested many times comes in and pretty much every time there's some piece of something that was on him: clothing, shoes, something that was in a pocket, whatever, goes missing.

Alissa 40:09 So weird. For me it was cash.

Brooke 40:13 Oh. Weird.

Alex 40:14 I got my cash back. I had like 30 bucks or something. I got that back.

Alissa 40:19 You know what's fucked up too is some comments helped host a fundraiser for me like, a few weeks before my arrest for my legal fees for my trial that's coming up in April. And I had around 2k in cash. And i didn't realize this till recently, because I was searching every single space, and every single like drawer, and just wanted to make sure, but yeah, they when they raided my house they took all of that cash.

Brooke 41:00 That is the thing that they will do.

Alissa 41:02 Here's the thing, though. They didn't...It's not listed on the evidence. They stole it.

Alex 41:07 Oh, that's what you call, that's what you call stealing.

Alissa 41:09 They actually actually stole that cash, along with intentionally destroying my camera and equipment.

Alex 41:16 That's the old piggie discount. You know, now that I'm thinking about that day in particular, I'm recalling that, my partner just reminded me, that at first, the cops had said to my roommates that I was being held, and they were like, talking about, like, $3,000 bail or something, like a bunch of money to get me out, but here's the thing, when they were having that conversation with them, I was already out and I was waiting to get picked up. I was just out there waiting for... But I had no phone and no money, you know, so I was just sitting there, but the cops were like, just wrong. Like either they're full of shit, or they're incompetent. Either way. So, it's like.

Alissa 42:02 I mean both are true.

Alex 42:06 I'm standing out there in like, you know, my prison Crocs and my shitty clothes, but I still have those clothes too. Why would I throw them away?

Brooke 42:16 We should auction them off for Alissa's legal fees.

Alex 42:21 God, you know, I mean, if anybody's a size 49 in pants, and a medium in shirts then absolutely.

Alissa 42:31 Wow.

Brooke 42:33 Excellent.

Alex 42:33 Gotta love them.

Brooke 42:35 You know, Alex, do I remember correctly though, that you did have to post bail at some point?

Alex 42:39 See, here's the thing, when they released me on OR, the day of, they let me out that night, right. And it was like my charges were bullshit. I had like Attempted Assault II and Disorderly Conduct, or something like that. They were buccus , charges, nonsense charges, right. And I don't have a criminal record. So, they were just like, "Okay, bye." And I walked out. And then later, just before I was going to be arraigned. I got, like right before my arraignment, and this is a bit of a jump forward in this story, because a couple other weird things happened with the police like just coming to my house and unmarked cars and stuff like that.

Alissa 43:25 Yeah

Alex 43:26 Yeah, it was real weird. You know, Alissa, the story you told me it kind of rings a bell. But, I got a call from my public defender at the time, who, this was the night before my arraignment about a month after my first arrest. And he was like, "Hey, your charges have been altered. And some of them have been amplified, and you have new charges." And I was like, "Okay, what does that mean?" And he was like, "Well, here's the charges." And he lays them out for me. And it's like Assault II, Riot x2, like it's a it's a litany of felonies and a Measure 11 charge. And I'm like, "Okay, what does this mean?" He goes, "You're going to jail tomorrow." Yeah, and so they didn't tell him about this until like, 4:45pm just before the whole Justice Center closed the night before my arraignment the next day at like 9:15am. So I have like 16 hours to get my entire life in order to get ready for going away and having a bail of like, $25,000. And I was like, Okay, I guess this is like the story of what happens to me. Yeah, and then I was in jail. And while I was in jail, I was I was subjected to what's called a 'Secret Indictment," wherein they were bring you into a room without your attorney and hit you with new charges. And anything you say during that process can be used against you in court if you go to trial, but you don't have representation, but that's okay for some reason. And also, you're not in a courtroom, you're in a tiny room with a phone looking at a TV screen at a courtroom somewhere else in the city. And that doesn't violate Habeas Corpus, I guess? [sarcastically] And I got several new charges, two of which were also felonies. And my bail overnight became over $500,000.

Alissa 45:36 [Sarcastically] This country is so cool.

Alex 45:41 It was great. It was great. And I was like, "I love being an Oregonian." Yeah, I think when you when you're in jail, they don't tell you anything, you know, like, so that morning, like 4:30am some guard is like shoving me in the side with a flashlight. And I wake up like, "Ah!" you know, because I'm in jail, and I don't know anybody. And they go, "You got a meeting," I was like, "What the fuck? like, I have a meeting," you know, so they get you up, and then they strip you down and look in your butt. And then they send you out into the hall with a bunch of other dudes, and presumably, who all just had their butts locked in. So, you have at least that much in common. You're butt buddies. And then you go down the hall to this big room, and you sit in there with there was like, I think 20 men in this room, and it's just a big naked concrete room with a bench and these blistering fluorescent lights and a toilet. There's nothing between the toilet and the rest of the room. Like if you need to go, you got an audience. You know, yeah. It's your recital. And, I sat there. We all sat there for nearly two hours before anything happened. Just sit there. And you know, these dudes in there who like met and knew each other. They were like, "Yo, man, what's up?" and they're telling these hilarious stories about knife fights. And yeah, I actually, it was kind of a funny story, but it was about knives, so I don't know how funny it was. And then eventually, this guard comes in, he opens the door and I swear this is true. He says this. He goes, so he must do this every time. I'm sure of it. Right. He loves his job. He goes, "Gentlemen, welcome to the busiest courtroom in Multnomah County." And I'm like, "Courtroom? We're in a giant urinal? We're gonna latrine, dude?" So he starts...He grabs dudes two at a time. And it takes another several hours. So, we're all just sitting in this room for...we've been awake all of us since like, 4:30. By the time I go into this tiny hallway and enter a carpeted room with a TV screen and a phone in it, it's like 8. You know, I sit down, I pick up the phone, there's some attorney there and a judge. The attorney does not represent me. He is in fact a fucking prosecutor. And there's a judge who, I don't even remember the judges name, it's all my paperwork somewhere, Silver, maybe? And I got slapped with the several new charges, a couple of them felonies, one of them another Measure 11 charge. And then they gave me some paperwork. And they sent me the fuck out. And then my public defender contacted me eight hours later that night to say he just heard that that happened.

Brooke 48:30 Wow.

Alex 48:31 It's a good time.

Brooke 48:33 Man. Some wild as shit.

Alex 48:37 Yeah, right. Especially when you look at the severity of these crimes, right? It's like, I mean, I still have all the paperwork. It says right at the top, 'Secret indictment.' And I'm like, "What the blue fuck is a secret indictment?" and all it really means is they don't have to disclose it to defense before they indict you. They don't tell your lawyer. They just do it. And then your lawyer finds out at their convenience essentially.

Brooke 49:01 Good. That's got to be at least a chapter title in your autobiography.

Alex 49:04 Yeah, "Welcome to the Busiest Courtroom in Multnomah County." Yeah. Yeah, and my bail that that morning went from around $227,000 to over $540,000. And I was like, Well, I thought I was fucked last night.

Brooke 49:28 [Joking] Now, you're the secret son of a billionaire. So you made bail just fine, right? The illegitimate boy of an heiress or something?

Alex 49:41 [Laughing] All those things are true. Yeah, I may be the most interesting Antifa member there ever was.

Brooke 49:49 So you laughed at that half million dollars and lit it on fire and walked out?

Alex 49:54 I did. When I laughed, I didn't make a sound, just an emoji floated out over my. Everybody got it. That's how it went down.

Brooke 50:06 Oh, okay, so but more seriously, you did have to post bail? And you did post bail?

Alex 50:11 I did. Yes. I had to borrow a great deal of that money. And the rest of it was money that I had saved. It was my savings. So I became poor. I mean, I was already pretty poor, but I came like poor.

Brooke 50:27 Okay, did you have people in your life who loaned it to you? Or, you know, how did you...How were you able to?

Alex 50:33 I was able to borrow some of it from...an old friend of mine loaned me a great deal of it, actually, at no interest. So I mean, it really is who you know, I gotta tell you. And I mean, looking back, I don't know where I'd be without her, because my hearing, my sentencing hearing was three years later. I'd have been just locked up until whenever.

Brooke 51:04 Yeah, if you hadn't been able to come up with bail, you would just be sitting there that whole time?

Alex 51:09 [Sarcastically] I mean, you know, that's justice.

Brooke 51:15 Yeah, that's how that works.

Alex 51:18 It is, though, it is how that works. You know, when I was in there, I met a guy, I met...Well, I met a lot of dudes in there. But I met this one guy who had been in, just in County there, just right there, you know, in Inverness for 17 months for a DUI.

Brooke 51:37 Holy cow.

Alex 51:39 He was just in jail.

Brooke 51:41 [Sarcastically] I mean, people who drive drunk should be in jail forever. That's my personal opinion. So that's, that's totally fine. Nothing wrong with our Justice system. That's the proper way to deal with problems.

Alex 51:51 [Sarcastically] I suppose. Yeah, we can infer that from that. That sounds reasonable.

Brooke 51:57 No counseling, whatsoever. Don't try and help them.

Alex 52:01 No, no, helping people is not what we do.

Brooke 52:03 No, not at all. Okay, moving on from that fun. So, you have both talked about having lawyers and I'm gonna flip back to Alissa here. Is your representation court appointed? Or have you been able to find a different private attorney? or what have you, to represent you?

Alissa 52:25 Yeah. So, for my upcoming trial in April, I was, I was able to, you know, get, get a private attorney, and, you know, pay for retainer, and I'm super grateful for that, especially now, because for, uh, for my new bullshit that's going on, I have a public defender. And I'm very aware of, you know, the shortage right now and how spread thin that they are. And it's really unfortunate, but also, you know, from, from my perspective of like, needing help, it fucking sucks. So, I am so grateful that I was able to get those attorneys on retainer. And honestly, if it wasn't for this community, that's not something that I would have been able to do.

Brooke 53:13 What do you mean by that? I asked as though I don't know the answer.

Alissa 53:22 So, Antifa International was able to help me with a good portion of my retainer, and the rest of it came from fundraising from the community. And, you know, just different people in a Leftist space, different mutual aid groups, you know, boosting that fundraiser and all that, you know, that that was a huge help, you know, and it's still something that I'm raising funds for. I owe my lawyer, fuck, over $22,000 as of right now, that's a lot of fucking money that yeah...I've never seen that much money in my life. And so yeah, if it wasn't for, you know, fundraising efforts and stuff....It's, yeah, I would be fucked.

Alex 54:16 Huge. Same. You know, my private representation was secured entirely by community donations. All of it.

Alissa 54:24 Really incredible.

Alex 54:26 Yeah, I had a public defender until we set up the GoFundMe and raised the money to get the representation who ultimately got me the deal that I did. It was just 100% Community funded.

Brooke 54:43 Now, did you guys have to both put in a lot of time and work for yourselves to do the GoFundMes or have other people been a part of creating those and getting the word out there and such?

Alex 54:56 I was in jail for most of that. My partner and my close friends spearheaded the handling of all that stuff. I was like, completely incapacitated. You can't do shit in jail. Everything that you need done in the outside world has to be handled by someone else. All of it. So, it was mostly my partner. And, you know...but I mean, word had sort of spread about what it happened to me. And of course, there was there was the footage and the picture. So, in a way, it was kind of a double edged sword that things had been so publicized about what had happened to me, for whatever it was I was involved in. Because people were like, "Well, fuck that." And they sent the money. And ultimately rescued me. Really, when you get right down to it. That's what, that's what happened.

Alissa 55:49 That's awesome. Yeah, even though, you know, I've been out. It's been primarily other people. And for that, I could not be more grateful because just, I think people really don't realize the emotional and mental strain that this kind of thing has on people. And it's, I know, it sounds really simple and like such a minut thing, but like I, physically, mentally, emotionally just would, not am not capable of doing that on my own right now. You know, I'm able to boost stuff and make posts. But yeah, I'm definitely really grateful for the help that I've had.

Alex 56:35 Yeah, I hear that, you know, It's intentional that the system is designed to crush your spirit to keep you from advocating for yourself. It's part of why they they levy these immense fines. I mean, you know, $540,000, you know, they're just like, "This guy. This is the guy," you know. Yeah. Okay. I didn't realize I was quite that dangerous to the community. But apparently, Mike Schmidt feels that way. He's my hero.

Brooke 57:16 Yeah, Mike Schmidt. He's your boy. So just like we do with health care in this country., if you need to get a decent lawyer to fight bogus charges, GoFundMe.

Alex 57:26 [Joking] Well like here, like don't get sick, cucks. I guess you don't deserve to be genes.

Brooke 57:43 Good times, fun times. Okay, we're gonna end up running over our usual length of episode, but I'm totally okay with that. Because I feel like this conversation we're having is really interesting and important. And we're just starting to dig into some of the bigger community support aspects of it, which is, of course, what Live Like the World is Dying is all about is how we prepare as a community and live together in the end times. So Alex, you ultimately took a plea on your charges? Why? What if you hadn't?

Alex 58:18 Well, so the short version of why I took the plea was my attorney said to me, "Your cases were," because I had two cases open. That's the thing. It wasn't just the bus incident. There was this other thing with some dumb ass and he's fine, right? I mean, I barely touched him. That ended up being another Measure 11 case, and the State....that was a stretch, even even by the state's own standards of like, over prosecuting. It was a bullshit case. But, had we gone to trial, having two separate Measure 11 cases open would have made me a very vulnerable defendant, and would have closed the door for me to use a certain legal avenue to avoid the mandatory minimum sentence. And Wedge felt that the prudent thing to do, would be to take a deal and he felt he could give me a pretty good deal. Partially because he felt the state's cases were actually pretty weak. And he didn't believe that the prosecution knew what they were talking about. And that ended up being true as we all saw at my sentencing hearing with my daughtering, staggering, stuttering, fool of a prosecutor tripping all over herself, and then waddling out. Disgrace. That's Nicole Herman. Shout out to you, Nicole. Loser.

Brooke 1:00:02 If you hadn't taken a plea, you were facing some pretty substantial time, right?

Alex 1:00:08 Potentially, yes. The fear was that if I was facing anytime, I was facing a minimum of 70 months, hard time, no access to programs, no time off, regardless of any other circumstance, stuck in prison for all that time, and that would be the minimum. I would be like 46 years old by the time I got out, all for a pair of cases with no injured parties.

Brooke 1:00:43 Yike, So Alissa, on your charges that are, the trials coming up here in April, is there any chance they might offer you a plea deal on that?

Alissa 1:00:59 I was actually already offered a plea deal.

Brooke 1:01:01 Okay.

Alissa 1:01:02 That we turned down, because it was a really shitty plea deal. They wanted me to plead guilty to everything. And do three years in jail. [Sarcastically] You're so generous, thank you!

Alex 1:01:25 Oh, my God,

Brooke 1:01:26 Three years because someone gave you a concussion? Great. Yeah. That's a gift with purchase. Except you didn't even purchase the thing. So, it's just bad. Do you think there's any chance? Or does your lawyer think there's a chance they'll offer you another plea deal before this thing goes to trial? Or maybe there's just no way to know?

Alissa 1:01:51 Yeah, I'm really not sure now.

Alex 1:01:55 It's tough to say, you know. We were certain, before the first hearing, back when I had a bunch of codefendants in one of the riot cases, which that hearing took all fucking day, by the way, because that was COVID times. We all did it through video. It was a nightmare, but also very funny. We were certain that the State was going to offer us something, anything and they were like, "No." We spent six hours on a video call and nothing happened. And I was still looking at all these charges exactly as laid out before despite the incredibly weak evidence for most of them. It's wild, you know, like, even Wedge, at the time, my attorney, he was surprised. He was like, "Nothing happened, I guess."

Brooke 1:02:47 Well, yeah, civil servants, they get paid for showing up for the day. So, they don't give a fuck how much of your time it wastes.

Alex 1:02:54 Yeah, well, that prosecutor, he quit his job halfway through my case. He isn't a prosecutor anymore. And he you know, I gotta be honest.

Brooke 1:03:04 I'm sure that was because of you.

Alex 1:03:06 Well, I like to take the credit, but he just he really had the air of a dude who was quitting his job. He didn't care at all. It's just to say, though, you never know how the State's going to behave.

Brooke 1:03:22 Yeah. So, Alissa, I hate to ask this question, but what kind of time are you facing? If they don't get a they don't give you a plea deal and and they find you guilty?

Alissa 1:03:36 I mean, I don't know off the top of my head.

Brooke 1:03:40 I don't know if you had Measure 11 stuff in in yours or any of that?

Alissa 1:03:45 I do in my most recent arrest. I'm facing six extremely bullshit felony, but all felony charges, including one Measure 11 Charge. Yeah. But yeah, I'm trying to remember off the top of my head what the minimum is just for Felony Riot alone

Brooke 1:04:08 It must be more than three years.

Alex 1:04:10 Felony riot, I believe it is like three to five years. But, there's different degrees of riot. Felony riot is you know, it's bad one. I had two of them.

Brooke 1:04:24 There's a lot that can happen of course in between now and then. I'm just okay. Let's just back away from the worst case scenario, because that's too depressing and awful to think of it, it's not going to happen because you're too awesome for that. So, you have the trial coming up in April. What kinds of things are you doing to get ready and how are people...You know, we already talked about the fundraising component but like, you know, I don't know, other things psychological or getting life in order in certain ways. Or you know, I don't know. You tell me.

Alissa 1:05:01 Honestly, for the good amount of like, this past year, my mental health was like, complete shit. Like, I was probably in, like, the worst spot that I've been in and like a really long time. And, you know, that's for, you know, a few various reasons, you know, also a bunch of like, undealt with trauma that I hadn't confronted beforehand. But, it was really, really bad. You know, I took a pretty long break from social media. And I spent a lot of time unfortunately stressing out about, you know, impending doom. But you know, the past few months, I don't know if this is the best way to go about it or not, but I've kind of just been trying to not think about it and just kind of take things day by day and just, you know, enjoy the time that I do have. I don't I, you know, I'm not saying anything's gonna happen, but something very well might, you know, there's definitely a chance that I do go to jail. So yeah, honestly, lately, I've just been trying my best to not think about it, and just kind of enjoy the time that I do have, trying to get better at reaching out for help and asking for help when I want and need it, because that's something I've struggled with my whole life. But, you know, there's, you know, there's a community and a lot of people who have been offering their help. And, you know, it took me some time to, like, get it in my head that like, 'No, these are people that genuinely care and do want to help and be there for you. So you don't have to go through this alone'.

Alex 1:06:52 Absolutely, yeah.

Alissa 1:06:54 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's made a huge difference too, you know, having that mindset and taking people up on, you know, different offers and things and letting people in and letting people be there for me. Yeah, it's made a huge difference in a lot of ways, but predominantly, my mental health. Also, Lexapro.

Brooke 1:07:20 Shout out SSRIs

Alissa 1:07:22 I'm a huge fucking stoner too, which was like, my favorite way to decompress, but now like my pretrial conditions for this shit, I can't do any drugs or a drink alcohol, including weed, even though it's legal here, so I'm confused specifically for that one?

Alex 1:07:40 Yeah. Oh, yeah. I lived that life for three years. I was forbidden from entering bars.

Alissa 1:07:48 That's fucked.

Alex 1:07:51 I couldn't leave the house at night. It was wild. I was like, "What was I doing? Did they bust me do a night crimes?" I don't remember that.

Alissa 1:07:58 They could take the alcohol away from me. I'm not I'm not really a huge drinker. But, I need my weed. I need to taste Mary again.

Alex 1:08:06 Well, I mean, how dangerous are the stoners really?

Alissa 1:08:10 Apparently, very.

Alex 1:08:14 You know, driving at a at a vicious 20 miles an hour...in a school zone.

Brooke 1:08:23 Yeah, you know, if they just freely passed out that shit in jails, I think you'd have a much calmer chiller population that would, it would be much easier to manage

Alex 1:08:34 It'd be better than the toilet wine that they were drinking where I was. I didn't try it, but I could smell it.

Brooke 1:08:43 There's so much more I want to get into, that I wish we had all the time for. Yeah, the mental health component seems really important. We hear Live Like the World is Dying recently did a whole episode that was on mental health first aid. And one of the big things that got talked about on that episode was the importance of community for mental health. Which, you know, not to be all nerdy and sciency, but from a biological perspective, it makes a lot of sense, too, because we're mammals wired for community. So, I'm glad that you're able to engage with community and that people are giving you that kind of love and support and helping with your mental health in that way. Alex, if you don't mind, can I ask if....Well, I'll ask. You don't have to tell me. If you struggled with any kind of mental health, mental illness or anything around the stress of this?

Alex 1:09:48 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, without a doubt. IYeah, it was very difficult. You know, the circumstances around my situation were...I mean, my pretrial conditions were pretty...They put an ankle bracelet on me. You know, it was bad. I was really suffering for a while there, you know, it was not easy. And I leaned really heavily on the people closest to me, and you know, it's taxing for everybody. And that's it. That's also by design. I mean, the State is doing it to you to, like I said before, to break your your heart, you know, that's what they want, because you'll acquiesce and you can be made an example of. And that's....it's really that simple. It's just a brutal system. And it's never clearer than when the Eye of Sauron is upon you, you know, because that's what it's like, it's like, they could do this to pretty much anybody. But, when they're doing it to you, you really get a taste of the unholy power that they wield over your life. Your whole life. Rvery aspect of it. You know, it is really wild, to just be told what's happening to you, and what might happen to you. Regardless of actual circumstance, you know, I mean, really just have to look at cases like Alissa's. If you've been following what's been going on with her. What happened to me. What I what I actually did, and how the State retaliated. It was very difficult. I did not handle it very well at times. I gotta say. And I was it was hard for me. It was hard on people close to me. For a while. Yeah, for sure. I definitely had some maladaptive problems for a little while.

Alissa 1:11:54 Yeah, going off of what you said, too, about how it's done intentionally. That's something that I personally struggled with was like, on top of everything that was putting me down in regards to everything that's going on, there's like this other really weird aspect to it, where the State is actively inflicting psychological warfare, and it's like, I'm aware of these tactics. I know what they're doing. I know why they're doing it. And, I kept going through this cycle where I was like... I just felt so stupid, and I kept getting so down on myself. I'm actively aware of this. So why, why is it still affecting me? Why am I still letting it affect me? Yeah. But yeah, it's all intentional. It's all by design.

Alex 1:12:55 Well, it's a science. They have it down. So, you're still going through this, and up until literally today, so was I. So I gotta tell you, I mean, just not to....

Alissa 1:13:10 No, what happened today? I want to know.

Alex 1:13:13 Well, I want to get to that in a second, but first