09: Nourishing Anti-Racism Work with Anjali Prasertong

I’m super excited to share this conversation with Anjali Prasertong - writer and registered dietitian, focused on food systems and racial equity. In this episode we talk about Anjali’s path towards anti-racism work, why anti-racism work is so badly needed in the field of nutrition and dietetics, and how you can begin to start noticing where white supremacy culture is showing up for you, and how to find places to start unlearning white supremacy, especially if you work in nutrition, but even if you don’t this is a really valuable conversation and I hope you learn a lot from it.

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Here’s the transcript in full:

Anjali Prasertong: And that was a really just clarifying moment for me where, you know, we're talking about all these systems in the world that we live in, that uphold white supremacy. And I just sat there and realised like, Oh, like I'm falling out of love with dietetics because I've never heard anyone talk about racism and the effect that white supremacy has on nutrition when we all know it has a huge impact. And it's, it's complicit, it's part of the system. And kind of in that moment I was like, I just wanna, like racial equity and anti-racism in food is what I'm interested in and it just doesn't feel like anything else I could do would be as impactful. So that, that was sort of the turning point for me professionally.

INTRO:

Laura: Hey, and welcome to the Can I Have Another Snack podcast where I'm asking my guests who or what they're nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them. I'm Laura Thomas, an anti-diet registered nutritionist, and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter.

Today I'm talking to Anjali Prasertong. Anjali is a writer and registered dietitian focused on food systems and racial equity. She's originally from Los Angeles where she was a contributing editor for the award-winning food website, the Kitchen, before moving to New Orleans, Louisiana, and getting her master's of public health degree. In New Orleans, she led an innovative city-funded corner store program that increased fresh food access in low-income neighbourhoods and worked with food entrepreneurs looking to operationalise racial equity in their businesses.

She currently lives in Denver, Colorado with her husband and her two children. Her newsletter, anti-racist dietitian, which by the way, hard recommend, is about the intersection of nutrition and racial equity covering history, food systems, land, water, politics, basically everything that lies beyond the individual choices we make about the food that we eat.

Anjali writes about what she wishes she had learned as a nutrition student, and she's creating a space that centres honesty, vulnerability, and the lived experiences of people of colour. In this episode, we talk about Anjali's path towards anti-racism work, why anti-racism work is so badly needed in the field of nutrition and dietetics, and how you can begin to start noticing where white supremacy culture is showing up for you and how to find places to start unlearning white supremacy, especially if you work in nutrition.

But even if you don't, this is a really valuable conversation and I hope you learn a lot. And while you're here, just a reminder that if you're not a fully paid-up member of the, Can I have another snack community then you're missing out on so many great benefits like our Thursday discussion threads, Snacky Bits, where we're having smart conversations away from the noise and the fat-phobic trolls of social media.

You'll also get access to my Dear Laura column where this month I was answering a question from a stepparent about parenting a fat child. Plus you'll get access to my anti-parenting, my anti Diet parenting, not Anti Parenting downloads, bonus podcast episodes and loads more. It's five pounds a month or 50 pounds for the year, and your support allows me to pay a podcast editor, a copy editor for my long-form essays, and it pays for the hours and hours of research and other labour that is required to produce thoughtful writing. If you need a comp subscription for any reason, then please just email hello@laurathomasphd.co.uk with snacks in the email header and we will hook you up. No questions asked. And one last favour to ask. If you're listening to this in Apple Podcasts, please go and leave a rating and review. We haven't had any reviews yet, which is a total bummer because it really helps more people find this podcast episode and hopefully feel heard and supported by these conversations. All right, team. Here's Anjali.

MAIN EPISODE:

Laura: So Anjali, I'd love to know who or what you are nourishing right now.

Anjali: So I'm nourishing, um, my family who I'm always nourishing, uh, which is my husband Rob, and we have an eight-year-old son and a two-year-old son. But I'm also lately just been really nourishing myself. I have had a pretty big professional change in the last year and within the last two years, a lot of big life changes and it feels like the first time in a long time that I can just sort of enjoy the world around me. I mean, I think a lot of people are probably feeling similarly. And I've really been sort of getting back in touch with creativity, which used to be a big part of my life, um, and just trying to find ways to nurture that, whether it's going to museums or just spending time in nature, reading all sorts of different kinds of books and just yeah, just kind of reconnecting with that side of the world.

Laura: Mmmh. That comes through in your newsletter in your Friday post where you're talking about just things that have been bringing you joy lately. And I've so appreciated getting those posts in my inbox because it's a reminder to take stock and notice the things that are bringing us joy. And yeah, as you're sort of alluding to the world has felt really heavy the past two years. I mean, it has been a heavy place, and I think we do need those reminders to connect with joy because it also, you know when you are doing, particularly if you're doing work that is rooted in social justice in some way, it's very easy to get burnt out otherwise.

Anjali: Definitely. Yeah, I think. The Friday Joy pieces were sort of like, Oh, you know, I wanna have something else and, and what can be something that I don't need to do a lot of research for. But for me it's, it's been kind of a grounding practice to really think about like, what is bringing me joy, what's keeping me nourished And, I've just, in the last couple years, been able, it feels like I've been able to bring a lot of things into alignment with my life as far as being able to live my values.

And, this last piece of just getting back into writing again, which is something that I had done for my entire life, but had sort of stepped away from when I was doing my studies, just getting back to writing is really, I think it feels like just completing the circle for me and, bringing me a lot of happiness and fulfilment that I feel I've been missing for a long time.

Laura: I love the expression that you used there, which was kind of bringing things into alignment with your values, and I wondered if you could speak more to that idea.

Anjali: Sure. So I lived in, so I'm originally from Southern California, and then I lived in New Orleans for seven years, which was an incredible experience, but it was also just a very shocking experience for this sort of escaping the California bubble and moving to the deep South for, I mean, many reasons it was shocking. But, It didn't, you know, there would be small things that would kind of, I would complain about while living there. Like, why don't I, why can't I recycle glass? Just this feels so strange to just throw this bottle into the trash or, you know, why is the school system all charter schools?

So I'm trying to send my kindergartner to a school in a way that's not going to perpetuate these inequities of the educational system and it's almost impossible.

Laura: Sorry to interrupt you, but we don't have charter schools here, so would you mind explaining what they are and like why that's an issue?

Anjali: Sure. So charter schools are basically, for-profit schools. Usually, they have some sort of, like alternative focus or something that, um, the founders believe that the public school is not offering to students. And sometimes that can be a great fit for people. They do receive public money. So the problem with charter schools, so the problem that some people see is that it funnels children away from the local public schools.

And, you know, in the United States, there's not many places where, especially these days where people of different socioeconomic status, different races, different cultures all come together in one place. So, a public school is a great site for being able to interact with all different sorts of people.

So in some places, you know, charter schools are funnelling kids away and that's harming, at least I think the fabric, the social fabric of the country. And in New Orleans, in the wake of Hurricane Katrina, basically the entire school system became only charter schools. So that means in New Orleans we lived down the street from a public charter school.

And there was no guarantee that we would be able to get into that school. There was no guarantee that we would get into any school that was what we preferred. So, just inequitable in so many ways. One of them being like, how do you find out what school to go to? Probably through your networks. Who's in your network? Probably people like you. So it, it really creates this hierarchy of good schools which are disproportionately white because most public schools in New Orleans are almost like 90% or more black students. And then creates a system where, you know, students whose parents don't have time to go to all these open houses and decide what school they wanna send their child to can end up going to these schools that are close to failing.

So it, it's just very complicated, frustrating, and inequitable system and really tests your resolve as someone who wants to live by your values of like, okay. I want to, you know, it's a, it's a lottery in the end, so you put your choices and then if, depending on where you're chosen in the lottery, you get placed in a school.

So it was just a question of, all right, if he doesn't get into these schools that are, you know, in my top choices, will I send him to like a, a school that's rated a c that is, sort of close to, unable to meet the needs of its students. So we didn't, I wasn't put in that situation.

He ended up getting into one of our choices, but, it, it's, yeah, so, so just that whole system and various issues with living in a deep red state in the United States. Just constantly was testing my values of like, how far am I willing to go? How much am I willing to sort of inconvenience myself or push myself to live what I believe?

So when we moved to Denver, it was just like a great relief. I just felt like I had been so tired from fighting against these wins for so long that it just felt good to be like, Oh, I can just, just live my life in alignment with what I believe to be true. So, we actually, my son does go to the, the local public school now, and it's amazing.

It's such a, a great community and just all these small things that have really brought me a lot of fulfilment in my life.

Laura: And the other thing that you touched on was a career change. And I'm wondering if that, if you were talking about the, the sort of path that you've been on the, towards becoming an anti-racist dietician, which I know has, sort of, has seeds sown in your experiences in New Orleans. I wonder if you could tell us a bit more about that.

Anjali: Sure. So, you know, moving to New Orleans was just a huge wake-up call for me, because I had been in a dietetics program, in near LA and just met amazing students. Had teachers from all over the world just bringing really diverse perspectives and never really felt the, the whiteness of the dietetics field while I was there.

And also just very open to kind of alternative, you know, it's California, like alternative, cutting edge ways of approaching nutrition. And then moving to Louisiana, I had to switch to a state school that was kind of in the middle of the Cajun Bayou. So that was a huge culture shock for me.

And then also just the approach to nutrition dietetics was completely different, where it was just very much by the book, this is what you're supposed to do, we're just kind of gonna scoff at any sort of alternative viewpoints.

Laura: Sorry, can I just before we, before we keep going on, because I think this is important, and again, this is where like a lot of my listeners are based in the UK and Australia, weirdly, um, and, they may not have that context of what the Cajun Bayou is. Like, I know, cuz I lived in Texas for five years, so I get, I know where you're coming from, but I wonder if you could just maybe tell us a little bit more about what exactly you mean by that.

Anjali: Sure. So it is like a really, in the Cajun Bayou is a really interesting place because it is so uniquely American and there's no nowhere else like it in the world. So it's sort of the area of Louisiana, close to the Gulf of Mexico. And so, it, you know, has always been a place of very waterways and very like, rich with life.

Like there's a, you know, a lot of indigenous cultures that have long history there. And, so it's just an interesting place in that it combines, you know, the, those sort of the indigenous history, and also the French fur trappers that came to that area, like early in the history of the United States, because Louisiana was for a long time, like a French colony. So there's a lot of that influence. And so it's just a very unique place. So if you think about, you know, like a crawfish boil or like alligators, uh, what's the Disney movie Princess and the Frog, Like that sort of, um, swampy, the sort of Cajun accents, a lot of spicy food, um, that, that life is the Cajun Bayou.

And it's interesting because it is quite rural. And so people actually do have a very close connection to their ancestor's foodways that I think is really interesting, you know, that, like people are still eating things that their great-great-great grandparents were eating, and the like recipes passed down for generations.

So it does have that old, old history.

Laura: Yeah. Like it's not uncommon for people to eat things like squirrels right?

Anjali: Hunting's very big. Yeah. Every, a lot of people actually live next to like a canal or some other waterway. So it's really common for kids to be like driving boats from a, a young age and, living on houseboats and things like that.

Laura: Well, okay, sorry for the, the little detour, but I just thought it would be helpful.

Anjali: Yeah. Let me know if there's anything that's too American.

Laura: And, and, and I'm wondering as well, and I don't know if this is gonna be important context for the rest of your story, but, and this again may be, uh, an assumption that I have, but I have this sense that, and especially cuz you said that it's quite rural as well, that there's a lot of poverty there. Is that fair to say?

Anjali: Yeah, so that was also just a real wake-up call because, I mean, I could just feel it in going from one state school, like the state school in California to a state school in Louisiana. It was just a feeling of like, Oh, this is what happens when you disinvest from education systems and like public service and other, systems to kind of uplift the citizens of a state. I mean, halfway through my semester at school, they were like, well, the, um, we're kind of outta money so we might have to cancel all classes for next semester. So luckily that didn't happen. But, um, there is definitely a lot of poverty, a lot of, a lot of students that I went to school with, they were first-generation college students, which I had experienced in California, but often in that case it would be, you know, like a student whose family had come from Mexico or something like that. At the school in Louisiana, I met a lot of students where their fathers had like, only had, uh, eighth-grade education, had never even gone to high school. And the, a lot of them were like shrimp farmers and things like that. So, um, it was definitely much less educated as far as like receiving formal education than I had experienced before.

So that was part of my sort of culture shock of like, Oh, I can't make any assumptions about people's lives, their family's lives, what they believe, what their experiences have been.

Laura: So where did you go from there? Like, it sounds like you were in, in a program, and maybe it'd be helpful to explain what that program was and what you were doing there.

Anjali: Sure. So I was sort of finishing up for, in order to become a dietician in the US you have to take these specific set of classes that meet sort of, you know, you studied, uh, counselling people, you studied all these things. So I, I had started that in California and had to finish it in Louisiana because, um, we moved rather suddenly due to my husband's job.

And, so that, that's what I was studying, but it, uh, was gonna require two years. So after one year, I was like, I can't just do this , because it, I was. I just knew I needed some more stimulation and, and, um, I knew I had wanted to pursue my master's degree. So, I was living in New Orleans and they, they have a great program at Tulane University.

And I should say, So the Bayou is, there is like a, a pretty significant black population, and also people that have indigenous, uh, ancestry. But New Orleans itself is a majority black city, so it's about 60% black residents. And, so that was also quite different for me just coming from LA which I didn't realise until later and sort of reflecting on, you know, where I had grown up.

But that's really the results of like redlining and segregation where the black communities in Los Angeles are very much clustered in certain parts of the city. And so I grew up in a very racially diverse suburb, but there were not a lot of black people there because, you know, those, once you establish those lines, like they kind of persist over the generations. So New Orleans is not only a majority black city, it's also a city that's really founded on black culture. And there's an artist that had a t-shirt that was like, Everything you love about New Orleans comes from black people. And that's basically true of just all these, you know, the food, the music, all these cultural events are all rooted in, the history of black people in New Orleans. So I, you know, went to Tulane and, and they did a pretty good job of, sort of talking about, I mean, they did an excellent job of talking about the disparities between black and white people in Louisiana, in the south, in New Orleans, and, a pretty good job of, of just sort of, allowing everyone to have a perspective and, and kind of giving you the full picture. There are a lot of tensions between Tulane and the surrounding black communities. Um, just historical. Um, so that's a whole other story. But, just being in the world of public health was really eye-opening for me as far as like, oh, okay, we're not blaming people for the food choices that they make and trying to shame them. Instead, we're talking about these systemic issues of why are these the only foods they're being allowed to choose from? And, you know, what are the upstream causes of these diet-related diseases? So, so that was just felt like a revelation to me to be able to talk about those types of things.

And through the program, um, I was able to do a, uh, undoing racism training with the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond.

And that was a really just clarifying moment for me where, you know, we're talking about all these systems in the world that we live in, that uphold white supremacy. And I just sat there and realized like, Oh, like I'm falling out of love with dietetics because I've never heard anyone talk about racism and the effect that white supremacy has on nutrition when we all know it has a huge impact. And it's, it's complicit, it's part of the system. And kind of in that moment I was like, I just wanna, like racial equity and anti-racism in food is what I'm interested in and it just doesn't feel like anything else I could do would be as impactful. So that, that was sort of the turning point for me professionally.

Laura: So it sounds as though, if I'm understanding you correctly, that what was being named in your public health classes around structural and social determinants of health and inequality was not been given the same air time in your nutrition and dietetics classes. So there was like this huge disconnect where in, and I'm putting words into your mouth here, so correct me if I'm wrong, but in, in nutrition and dietetics, it's very focused on the individual and, and we're counselling a single person on what they should or shouldn't eat without the broader context of those social and structural determinants that could be informing things like the amount of money that they have to afford food, the, their access to that food, you know, physical access because of where they're located, which as you've just said could be through generations of.

I can't remember the exact terms that you, you used, there were specific terms, so maybe you want to jump in there. The, what was it you said?

Anjali: For which part?

Laura: I think basically the idea that that, like of segregation essentially

Anjali: Oh, oh

Laura: Yeah. Physical segregation.

Anjali: Yeah. I mean, New Orleans has, you can look up maps. Um, I think the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation did a big project where you can actually map how people's like lifespan, expected lifespan changes by neighbourhood in New Orleans. And the neighbourhoods with the highest lifespans are the ones that are disproportionately white. And the ones with the lowest are the ones that are disproportionately black. And it's not, it's not like a, it's like 30 years difference. Like, it's not a small amount of time. And so I feel, I felt that in not addressing these issues, I mean, I still feel this way, I felt this way during my entire dietetic internship.

It's like, if you don't name this, which I did not hear it named in my programs in Louisiana, then the conclusion that people might draw is that, oh, it's, it's their fault.

Like there's a reason, you know, it's their fault that they're living thirty- Yes. That they're, they're, well, they're not exercising, you know, they're just, they're eating this horrible food.

And that was just infuriating to me. I, I just think it's so, I think it's unfair for everyone. I think obviously it's unfair to shame people. And I mean, I saw people openly, I saw black patients openly be shamed and treated differently. But then it's also not fair to the, the dietetic interns and the students who are trying to understand the world that they're about to enter, and you're not giving them all the information that they need. You're not giving them the tools to process it. So it just feels like everybody loses.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. So one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is, you know, through your newsletter and on Instagram, you've taken this position of the anti-racist dietician and I'm, I'm really curious if you could help us understand a little bit more about what that actually means. What is the process towards becoming anti-racist in the context of nutrition and dietetics?

Anjali: Yeah. Well first I wanna say I chose anti-racist because to me it felt like the antithesis of what you think of when you think of a dietician. And I wanted it to be a word that was a little bit challenging because I think especially in an overwhelmingly white field like dietetics, it's easy to hide behind words like diversity, equity, inclusion, like things that are more easy to swallow.

Laura: They're palatable. Mm-hmm.

Anjali: Yes. whereas anti-racist, it's like, no, this is what we're talking about. We're talking about racism and we're all part of it. So that was kind of why I went in that direction with the name And, Sorry, can you repeat the question?

Laura: Yeah, no, I, I guess what I'm, I'm curious about, and sorry if I might have worded it kind of weirdly, but I suppose what I'm asking about what, what does it mean to be anti-racist in the context of nutrition and dietetics and, you know, that could be for you personally, but also kind of more broadly speaking as well.

Anjali: Yeah. So I, for me, being anti-racist is not only taking a personal stance of I am dedicated to sort of rooting out racism and calling it out when I see it. I am dedicated to the lifelong practice of looking, just always trying to improve the way that I treat people, my understanding of other people's lives and, um, just being vulnerable, admitting mistakes and learning from them.

I think that that is the only way to be, uh, truly anti-racist is to admit, like, you're going to make mistakes. You're going to learn things along the way. And, you have to be okay with that vulnerability and maybe even like shame and humiliation about how you made someone else feel. And I think that, I wish that we could bring this into the dietetics education of just that viewpoint.

Like, um, getting comfortable with that. Honestly, I think it starts with being in a group of people who aren't like you. And so you can't be assured that what you say is going to be acceptable and understandable by everyone. You need to be challenged by people who are bringing other viewpoints to the table and who feel comfortable, and safe enough to call you on that.

And it's when, if the room is 83% white as it is in dietetics in the us, no person of colour or very few will feel comfortable stepping up and speaking up because it is not a safe space for them.

Laura: Yeah, so I think it's, you know, safe to say that nutrition and dietetics has a white supremacy problem, both in terms of the makeup and representation of people who actually become dieticians. And we were kind of speaking off mic a little bit before about just the, the barriers of entry to accessing nutrition and dietetics as a profession.

But then I think there are also the structural things as well that are upheld by institutions that, that hold power within the profession. So in the US it's the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. In the UK it's the Association for Nutrition in the British Dietetic Association. And I think they form some like mega conglomerate of nutrition associations as well, which is also like really weird power hoarding.

But, yeah, so I, I'm wondering, you know, for maybe any, Nutrition students or actual practicing professionals who are newer to this work and, and don't really fully understand like the, the extent of the problem besides just, you know, representation in invert commas. It maybe it would be helpful for us to give some examples of, you know, where it maybe shows up in our counselling and our recommendations and maybe some of the structural side of things as well.

Anjali: Sure. Um, well, I can also talk a little bit about I, what I see as the missed opportunities that if, so first, I mean, the first just huge missed opportunity is to just admit mistakes and say we're sorry. You know, dietetics was a field that was established to kind of give white women scientific legitimacy and like many fields established to empower white women, it, it's did that by disempowering women and men of colour. And so I think it starts with that, just admitting, you know, we have made mistakes along the way, but we want to, to do better. You can't really heal and change until you take that first step. And in not taking that step and in sort of doubling down on No, we're, we're making the changes that need to be made, just don't ask too much about what we're doing. They're just missing out on an opportunity to really serve, really like serve dieticians better by giving them the resources they need to more effectively and empathetically work with clients of colour and, and communities of colour, you know, immigrant communities. I was talking to a friend and just talking about like, how amazing would it be if, if we could turn to our professional organization for resources around, you know, like culturally appropriate recommended food lists for different diet-related diseases for, for patients of all different cultures. They have the money to do that, you know, they have money to do so many things, and it seems like that is just a baseline, just very baseline what, what dieticians need in order to better serve the people that they work with.

Laura: Just to kind of like, just to go back a, a tiny second, I, I think what we're saying is that the, the roots of the nutrition and dietetic profession were sort of established in the image of white supremacy, I think is maybe one, one way to, to think about it. And for context, for people who, who maybe aren't familiar, didactics is an evolution of home economics as a profession. And at the time of its creation, it was considered to be this like super empowering scientific evolution of that profession. But what Anjali, you are saying is that yes, and it only liberated and empowered white women.

And as a result, ended up creating this deep inequity in, not just in the people who could access the profession, but also in the way that we practice nutrition and dietetics. Because it's then not reflective and not inclusive of the folks that we are going, that we are, you know, ostensibly trying to help.

Anjali: Yeah. Because if it's only white women deciding what healthy food is, and then, and those white women are the ones that the government are like, oh, they are the ones that are following the latest scientific research and they're the experts. So we're gonna ask them what is healthy food. And now the government is using their ideas around healthy food to inform so many different policies from what we serve in schools, to what's on My Plate, which is what we, we use to kind of talk about the ideal healthy diet.

And in just kind of, you know, we talked a little bit about the characteristics earlier off mic, talked about some of the characteristics of white supremacy that show up in dietetics, and there are so many, but, um, just this is making me think about the worship of the written word.

And now that, now that it's all about, like, well we're scientific, so you have to take us seriously because we're a scientific profession now. So if it hasn't been published in a peer-reviewed journal, is it true? But so many cultures, you know, nutrition knowledge is passed down. Through oral, through, you know, people who maybe don't have a scientific degree, but have been taking care of members of their community for their entire lives, like at these other alternative ways of passing down important nutrition know knowledge.

But because it is not written down in a venue that is deemed, you know, authoritative, then it doesn't, it's not true. It doesn't matter.

Laura: Oh, so many things that I just wanna kind of like touch on, you know, that, that you've mentioned there, cuz this is like a really important aspect of what we're talking about. So first of all, you mentioned white supremacy culture and I don't think a lot of people are aware that the, the characteristics of white supremacy culture have been kind of, not that this is like the be all and end almost, you know, comprehensive, there's lots of ways that white supremacy culture shows up. But what we are talking about specifically when we say the characteristics of white supremacy culture is from a piece by Kenneth Jones and Tema Oak Hunt from the Dismantling Racism: A Workbook for Social Change text, which I'll link to in the show notes.

And I think it's a really important read for people who are like, aren't familiar with what we're talking about when we talk about the characteristics of white supremacy culture. So that's the first thing that I wanted to say. And then, yeah, this, the second thing around what you're naming is epistemologies or, or ways of knowing, that, that are outside the realms of science.

And you know, in nutrition and dietetics, we are told, we are taught that science is the be all and end all. And if there isn't any evidence to support a recommendation, then we can't use it. And what ends up happening is, I mean so many things, but we end up weaponising science to gaslight recommendations that, or medicines that, have been passed down through different cultures for, you know, eons and eons. And then I think about what happens there in terms of, of a really creating a really imbalanced power dynamic as well between the, the clinician, the practitioner and the client and, and how that really renders people powerless in that interaction.

Anjali: Yeah, absolutely. And I'm also, when, when you're talking about it now, I'm just thinking about it, you know, if you are a nutrition student or an intern coming from a culture that does have these long cultural practices that sort of disagree with, with what your textbook is saying, just that feeling of disconnection and pain that, that causes of, okay well I either have to sort of turn my back on my family, my friends, my ancestors, or be weak in front of my professors and my fellow interns. So we're just putting, we're putting people from other cultures that want to enter the field into a really painful place, I think.

Laura: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I'm wondering, I think that was a helpful way to kind of illustrate what some of you know, why this is something that we need to address in the field of nutrition, not just in field of nutrition and dietetics, but everywhere, but, you know, using the lens of nutrition and dietetics. I wondered, you know, if we could talk maybe a little bit more about something you touched on before, which was about nutrition recommendations in things like, you know, the dietary guidelines that were recommended and something that you wrote about recently, which I'll link to as well, is the recommendation that, you know, everyone should have milk. And this is a very specifically US example, but I think it's a really good one, a really important one. Would you mind sharing a little bit more about, you know, how the, the unbearable whiteness of milk?

Anjali: Okay. . Yeah, so, I don't know how it is in the UK but um, the My Plate, which sort of is the consumer-facing ideal plate for people, has a serving of dairy on this side. And It all struck me as interesting, even as a student or just like confusing because, I think something like 60% of the world, 65% of the world actually can't digest lactose as adults.

So because of this recommendation for dairy in schools in the US, students have to take a carton of milk with their lunch unless they have a written note from a doctor exempting them, in which case they can take something like soy milk.

Laura: So, can I just clarify something? And again, like my, I haven't worked or studied in the US for a long time, but my understanding was that, and I think this is why it's particularly pernicious, is that if you are on, So there's like different tiers of school lunches in the US, there's kids who just pay full price because they can afford it. And so this program is kind of means based. And for, poorer kids, they can either get a reduced cost or free lunch. However, if you're, if you're just buying your lunch, you can just, I think you can just get whatever you want off of the line. But if you are, if you qualify for a reduced or free lunch, you have to take certain components. So you have to take like a fruit, a vegetable, the whole grain, the protein, and this carton of milk. Is that, is that still the

Anjali: Thank you for clarifying. So the reason why it needs to be on the tray is so the school can get reimbursed by the federal government for that meal. So it's most relevant for students who are getting the free or reduced-price lunch, because meals...

Laura: Sorry, I was just gonna say, those are disproportionately the people who can't drink the milk.

Anjali: Oh, yeah, so it's mostly, it varies by like racial background, but the major, like vast majority of people of colour do not have the ability to digest lactose in adulthood. So it doesn't quite, you know, this whole program was set up in the 1940s, so in a lot of ways it doesn't really make sense anymore, just because, you know, that was like a different time when the country had different needs of not only needing to support the dairy system, but also, you know, kids were suffering more from like under nutrition and milk was a very easy way to get a lot of calories, fat, vitamins, things like that. So it's just a different time and place and it's also why are we operating... in the article I talk about if, if, you know, lactose intolerance, only affected 5% of the population, which is the case if you have Northern European ancestry, then it would make sense that it's on those who can't digest lactose to get the note from the doctor exempt, you know, get their alternative drink.

But we're operating from a place where public schools in the US are disproportionate and recipients of free and reduced lunch in particular, are disproportionately black and brown students who disproportionately cannot digest lactose. But we aren't starting with their reality as the defaults.

Instead, it's sort of the reality of the white students who can drink lactose and, and they're the starting place. Because, you know, if you are studying any sort of like health behaviour you know, anytime you erect a barrier to get to the sort of outcome you're looking for, it's going to, people are gonna drop off. So if it's you have to go, well, first you have to have health insurance and have a doctor for your child. Already a barrier. Then you have to take time off work to bring your child to the doctor in order to get the, get the diagnosis of lactose intolerance and get the note to give to your school. So just all these different barriers that are erected, that are making it harder for families of colour to just get a drink that's not going to cause their child's digestive distress. It just seems really, I don't know, kind of,

Laura: Regressive and backwards and yeah, like harmful, violent.

Anjali: Mm-hmm.

Laura: I mean, and like, I think we could spend all day talking about how this shows up. You know, I'm thinking about it in the, the context of parenting for a second as well, and how these nutrition recommendations kind of filter through to the public, but in a way that becomes like, again, like slow violence where, I'm thinking of it in the context of infant feeding, for example, and I'm not sure how it is in the US now, but in the UK there's this like real push, especially from white nutritionists on Instagram, that you should be pushing green foods first for your child to help them develop a taste for savoury foods.

And, there are these like really wild, kind of like two-week feeding schedules with like different savoury tastes for your infant that you need to start them on. You're like nodding, like, you know exactly what I'm talking about. Right? And like I had, you know, I have friends who, we have kids around the same age and they, when they came to weaning, they were coming to me being like really stressed out about this green foods first thing, because that's not the foods, those aren't the foods that they eat culturally. And they were really concerned that they were doing harm or, or like causing this irreparable damage to their child by not giving them these foods and just causing so much stress and anxiety.

So it's just like another way that this, this shows up in the world of parenting. And yeah, like I said, we could probably sit and think of examples all day long, I just thought that was a pertinent one as well.

Anjali: Yeah. I just have no more patience for making people feel bad about their choices based on these white-centered principles of what is healthy. And it, it's just really frustrating. I think living in a place like New Orleans that has a food culture that is really strong and vibrant and really different from, pretty much every recommendation that is, is given by any sort of nutrition body, I really, I just couldn't stomach telling people, you know, Oh, that dish your grandmother has been making for your entire life that her grandmother made for her entire life, it's just, you just shouldn't be eating it.

Laura: Or here's a way to healthify it and completely like

Anjali: Oh yes, Um, and yeah, uh, it was just embarrassing and sad. I just couldn't do it. I just couldn't, I couldn't stomach it anymore.

Laura: So, I'm just wondering for students or professionals who are, are listening to this or reading the transcript and resonating with what you're saying, who are feeling that discomfort in their body when they're, you know, their preceptors in their internship are like, You have to recommend brown rice when like this, the person in front of them, all, all their family knows is, is white rice. And that's just like one tiny example obviously, but one of many, yeah, that they're feeling that discomfort and that disconnect and they, they want to kind of, I suppose, interrogate this a little bit more and, and start to make changes in their practice and, and, and have the tools, I suppose to create change more systemically. Aside from your substack, which I will obviously link to, what are the, the resources and, and the places that you are looking to, to help with this work?

Anjali: So, I would say just in, just to find a safe person or place, in person to discuss those things. It's really hard and potentially dangerous to your internship to speak up in the moment because there is that power, um, differential between preceptors and the interns. But I also think it's really important to be able to process it. I was lucky in my internship, and I, I don't know if this is always the case, but in, in most of my rotations I had a partner and my car kind of became, or her car were like the places where we just deconstructed what we had seen. You know? Did that give you a weird feeling? Me too. And just being able to talk about that and, you know, if you can't find that in person, then just talking to someone on the phone, just anyone where you can just decompress, get it out and, and walk through it, because I think it is, it just kind of like rocks you from the inside to witness these moments that you know are wrong and harmful and to not be able to speak about them. And then honestly, I, it's kind of been frustrating because I set up my Instagram in 2020 when it was like, Oh, I think dieticians are ready to talk about this.

Had to step away because like you had a, had a, an infant and just couldn't, couldn't keep up with it. And came back to it earlier this year to to take a deep dive with my newsletter and was like, Wait, nothing has happened. No other avenues have opened up. I'm in a couple Facebook groups, one called hashtag inclusive dietetics that was, I think, established for some sort of research study, and it's not that active. But that's like one small place where, you know, for example, a student recently posted about a problematic assignment that she got, she or, or they. And then that's kind of it.

So honestly, with, with my newsletter, I hope to build up a community where people can gather, that do wanna talk about these issues because I, I myself, I'm kind of like want to create the thing that I have been unable to find. Outside of nutrition, dietetics, I think there are a lot of, places to gather, you know, I find a lot of affinity in my public health groups because racism as a public health problem is something that we study. And I am involved with a couple local food policy councils. That's something I wanna write about, um, upcoming is just like how much opportunity there is to both like support change in the food system through a local food policy council, but also just meet like-minded people.

And I very rarely meet dieticians who are part of these councils. But you know, each, each one has a racial equity subcommittee that I'm also a part of. So it's just a place to be able to talk through some of these issues. And a lot of times they can be very localised to where you live. Like what is the history of your town, what kinds of racist systems were established over the years and how can you dismantle them?

And to be honest, like it's much easier to pass policy change at the local level and can, can make a huge impact, people that live there. So personally, that's where I find that kind of support.

Laura: Yeah. So it's, it sounds like what has been really important to you is, is kind of getting stuck in, into that, like, into the, the work as it were, like doing the work, getting involved at a local kind of policy level, organisational level. And what I might do as well is just link in the show notes to a couple of like books and resources and things if people want to just kind of maybe, you know, and I'm speaking from my experience here, like I don't always feel like I have the language and the tools and that's also white supremacy culture showing like it doesn't have to be perfect, but if you want to have kind of a baseline understanding of like, you know, some of the issues, some of the ways that white supremacy, you know, shows up, then there are definitely a couple of books that might be able to help you with that as you're trying to find your feet. And I'm speaking specifically to white people here. And I think the other thing that I wanted to say is, you know, white nutritionists, dietitians, white students, it's on you to be doing the work that might not be safe for our colleagues of colour whether that's in professional organisations, whether that's in university settings. Like I, I get, like, I get that it's also, you know, when it's your degree, it's, it can also be not safe to, to say anything but where you have some power to push back, please use that, you know, and keep yourself safe also.

Anjali: I think it's so important that everyone do some sort of anti-racism training that forces you to confront your own internalised issues. And I, you know, I think reading books and educating yourself is so important, but there's no replacement for that experience of, especially if you can be in a room or in a Zoom space with people from other backgrounds from you and make mistakes. I think that's such an important experience to have, just to know that I can make mistakes and I will bounce back from it. Also, maybe if you're not used to, I'm shouldn't be speaking right now. Like, this isn't my place to speak. No one needs to know my opinion on this right now. And I feel those spaces are places where you will get called out on that. And I think that's a good experience. So I went through the Undergoing Racism Training, through the People's Institute for Survival and Beyond. Highly recommend that. I believe it’s a three day training if you can get your employer to pay for anything like that. I think this type of training is more helpful than say, like an anti-bias training because really talking about the roots of things, after I did the training, I basically felt like sick, like I felt like I had a cold for like three days afterwards because I just really had to go deep into myself, both my own internalised issues about others, and then also realising like how white supremacy had affected me. So I think it's important, you know, BIPOC people, white people, everyone should do that type of really challenging work least once in your life.

Laura: Yeah. And, I think what you're naming there is so important. It's something that with, that folks with a lot of privilege especially are not at all used to, which is sitting with discomfort. And I think that's what your invitation is really, is to sit in the discomfort and that's where deep learning and deep growth happens. You know, we can intellectualise things all we want by reading it in a book, but the actual work is in sitting in that discomfort and you're only gonna be put in that discomfort if you're, you know, in a room full of people that will challenge you and, will push you.

So yeah, thank you for, for naming that. And, I will link to that training in the show notes. And also I'll include some trainings for UK-based folk as well because there are some great people in the UK doing this work in earlier settings in, you know, other organisational settings. So yeah, please check those out. Before we like wrap up, was there anything else that like, felt really important to say.

Anjali: Um, just that, you know, I think that people do have the ability and the opportunity to make change in their individual workplaces. Even if, you know that isn't coming from the higher ups in the nutrition and dietetics world. You can, you can change, you know, how you interact with clients to make it less you know, rooted in paternalism or, do more to create true deep community engagement with the communities that you, you work with.

And, until, until we do get that wide-scale change, I think, like, don't feel, don't feel disempowered, don't feel crushed by how much needs to get done. I think there are small changes that people can make, just by changing their mindset and, and taking that step to serve people better.

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for that. I think that's, it can feel, yeah, when you are trying to tackle a huge system that can feel really disempowering. So just thinking about, okay, what are the, what are the little things that I can do to make someone I'm working with feel more comfortable, feel more held and seen and, yeah, not lectured to.

At the end of every episode we share something that we've been snacking on. So it can be a literal snack or it can be just something that you recommend and want to share with the audience. So, do you mind sharing what you are snacking on right now?

Anjali: Yeah, so my mine is sort of a like a life practice and then with an actual physical product to recommend. So life practice is that on Fridays, in my household we started doing screen-free 24 hours. So starting on Friday when my kids get home from school. And that's been really great just in general cuz I have an eight-year-old and he was getting towards the, like I just wanna be on my iPad all the time. It was really difficult at first. My husband described it as watching train spotting like the first night that he couldn't have his screen after school he was just sort of lying in the snow.

We've been doing this for about nine months now. But now, you know, everyone's sort of in a rhythm and after, our two-year-old goes to bed, my husband, eight-year-old, and I play a board game together. That's sort of our wind down thing on Fridays. So, that's been really nice because I love board games, played a lot of them with my family growing up and, my husband and I are kind of into a lot of like indie board games. So one that we've been playing all at lately is called Wingspan and it's very peaceful and soothing. You just have these different habitats and you populate them with birds. So the cards are like really beautiful, these watercolour paintings of birds with different facts about them. It has a lot of components that I won't go into, but it's just, it's very fun. Like you do different rounds, there's these little egg sort of game pieces that are really satisfying in their colour. You know, like I feel like the feeling of a game piece is like 25% of the experience of playing a game. So yeah, it's just a fun, interesting, sort of unique game that is a really good time for the whole family. So we've been into that.

Laura: That's really cute. I need to check that out. My husband loves an obscure board game. Our like cupboards are full of things that we can never play because our toddler does not sleep.

Anjali: Aw.

Laura: I'm also jealous of, of the fact that your child like, goes to bed time that allows you to still have somewhat of an evening.

Okay. So my, my snack, if you will, is actually a meal. This is a recipe that has been kind of having like a bit of a moment on Instagram, so people might have seen it, but it's Ruby Tandoh's Chilli Crisp Gnocchi. I don't know if you are familiar with Ruby's work, but like, she just released her cookbook, Cook As You Are, in the US and like she shared this recipe and it's just kind of like taken on a life of its own it seems. But it's the simplest, easiest, quickest like week-time dinner that has like five ingredients, literally takes 15 minutes and is so delicious.

So, you basically just cook the gnocchi, then you melt some butter in a fry pan, toss in the chilli crisp oil, add in some capers, and then like coat the gnocchi with that mixture and then add some parmesan and it sounds bonkers, but it's so delicious and I..

Anjali: That

Laura: I keep a couple of gnocchi aside for my two-year-old who probably won't eat anyway because he is two, and like just put some like, but like melted butter and cheese on that for him.

And then I just like stir fry some veggies quickly on the side and that's like it, and it's so delicious and so easy. So I'll link to the recipe for that. Her cookbook is really good as well. It's all about like really quick and accessible meals that don't have a ton of ingredients and it's like split into sections of like, I'm really hungry and I wanna eat right now, versus like recipes where you have a bit more time to invest in them. So yeah, that's my thing.

Anjali, can you please share where we can find you on the internet?

Anjali: Sure. So, um, you. Read and subscribe to my Substack at anjaliruth.substack.com. Um, my first name is A-N-J-A-L-I. My middle name is Ruth, named after my great aunt. And then my Instagram is @antiracistrd - those are the two best ways. Yeah.

Laura: Yeah, I'll link to all of that in the show notes. And also like some of the, the pieces that we mentioned you've talked about like sort of your path to becoming anti-racist dietician and also like that whole milk fiasco. So I'll link to both of those. Anjali, it was really great to actually be able to talk to you in real life as opposed to just messaging on the internet. So thank you for being here and I'm excited for everyone to go check out your newsletter cause it really is great.

Anjali: Thanks so much, Laura.

OUTRO:

Laura Thomas: Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week.

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