05: Nourishing Appetites with Julia Turshen

Today I’m super pumped to be speaking with New York Times bestselling cookbook author Julia Turshen. As well as writing cookbooks Julia is the author of the Keep Calm & Cook On Substack and hosts the Keep Calm & Cook On Podcast, both of which I highly recommend. She also hosts these awesome Sunday cook along classes where you can make recipes in real-time with her from the comfort of your own kitchen. This may be my favourite conversation of the series so far. It just feels so wholesome and I know it’s going to be one I keep coming back to and sending my clients to, so I really hope you love it too.

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Here’s the transcript in full.

Julia Turshen I think for so long, I thought having, you know, a large appetite for food or, honestly an appetite for food period. I thought that was not a good thing. And that was something I would spend my whole life working against. You know, I thought I was gonna spend a lifetime trying to diminish my appetite. And then when I kind of zoomed out and I thought about that, I thought, Wow, that's so fucking sad. And I guess my relationship to my appetite or my appetites now is one of just tremendous curiosity. I feel like I've spent so long trying to pretend I don't want things that now I am just so curious about like, what do I want and then finding moments when I want a lot of something or a lot of things like when I have like a large appetite, I am just trying to go towards that with open arms.

Laura Thomas  Okay, welcome to Can I Have Another Snack podcast, where I'm asking my guests who or what they are nourishing right now and who or what is nourishing them? I'm Laura Thomas, an anti diet registered nutritionist and author of the Can I Have Another Snack newsletter?

Today I’m super pumped to be speaking with New York Times bestselling cookbook author Julia Turshen. As well as writing cookbooks Julia is the author of the Keep Calm & Cook On Substack and hosts the Keep Calm & Cook On Podcast, both of which I highly recommend. She also hosts these awesome Sunday cook along classes where you can make recipes in real-time with her from the comfort of your own kitchen, so check them out if you’re looking for some kitchen and recipe inspo. Julia lives in the Hudson Valley in New York State with her spouse Grace and their pets. So as you'll hear, Julia's career started off, much more deeply rooted into wellness and diet culture, which was a reflection of her own difficult relationship with food. We talked about how she got from there to where she is now, which is a badass anti diet advocate who is vocal about anti fat bias in the food industry. And we have this really wonderful delicious conversation about how healing it can be to reclaim appetites both in terms of food and in a more generative and expansive sense. Julia talks about why this has been such a powerful tool as she divest from diet culture, and shares how she deals with those funky body image days. So, this may be my favourite conversation of the series so far. It just feels really wholesome. And I know it's going to be one I keep coming back to and sending my clients to. So I really hope you love it too. And also check out Julia's work, because she's really awesome. 

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Laura Thomas  All right, Julia, I want to know who or what are you nourishing right now?

Julia Turshen  I love this question so much. I think who or what am I nourishing, the first thing to come to mind is just myself. I think I've been doing a lot of nourishing myself, which feels really important. In addition to that, I would say, just my household, my spouse, Grace, our many animals, the house itself, I think we're just trying to do what we can to keep this a very nourished and safe and happy place.

Laura Thomas  What does that mean to you, a nourished place? I've never thought of that in terms of like a physical place before.

Julia Turshen  I mean, we were really lucky. I guess it was, I guess, close to eight years ago, we got to become homeowners, which is, you know, a huge privilege. And something I think about a lot is that a house is, it's also like this living thing. You know, our house, we live in a really old house. And there's, I, you know, I could phrase it a number of ways I could say there's always something broken. Or I could say there's always an opportunity to improve something, I don't know but we're always kind of tinkering and adding things and fixing things and tending to things. So to me a nourished house is one that's kind of just taken care of, you know, just like our bodies, and, you know, anything that's urgent, and broken and kind of dangerous is made safer, you know, and then we get to kind of enhance things too. And, you know, we just cleaned our like couch cushions, which was like the most annoying job but then it just makes our living room feels so nice and kind of fresh. And you know, stuff like that. We do a lot of, I guess just home caretaking.

Laura Thomas  That was kind of the word that was that popped into my mind was care, just tending and caring to your physical space. And I love the reframe of, you know, rather than things being broken, which I think when you're a homeowner, that's kind of how you tend to view things but flipping it and thinking about okay, what needs sort of a bit more TLC maybe?

Julia Turshen  Yeah, yeah, I think I have to think about it that way, or I'm very overwhelmed. I'm just trying to manipulate myself, I guess, I don't know.

Laura Thomas  I think you sort of, you alluded to this a little bit before, when you said that you're nourishing yourself. And I'm not sure if you said you're working on yourself, but it was sort of something to that effect. And this was something that I was going to ask you about, which is, or I suppose just a preface is that you are someone who was on my radar, ages ago, like when I was deep in my wellness culture kind of days. And then you kind of, I think our paths kind of diverted a little bit. And now I feel like you are popping up everywhere. In all my usual haunts, as it were. So I feel like yeah, you're you're back on the radar. I feel weird to compare you with like a submarine.

Julia Turshen  I'm happy to be a boat. That's great. Yeah.

Laura Thomas  But um, I would be really interested to hear more about what that arc has been like for you, from your perspective, and like, what's been going on behind the scenes?

Julia Turshen  Yeah, so it sounds like it. Like the arc from kind of wellness culture to maybe more than like, I don't know, to kind of culture. That arc or path or whatever, for me, has been incredibly personal. And I've also in the last probably, like year or two, something like that. I've made it a bit more, I guess, public slash professional, which those things tend to blend a lot. And my work has always been very personal. And I've always in my cookbooks and my writing about food. It's always been about, you know, what I'm cooking and eating and making for people. And that used to be a lot of things rooted in diet culture, a lot of things rooted in what I've come to understand after many years of therapy was like a decade's long eating disorder. And getting myself out of that, you know, it's changed how, why and what I cook, and how I think about it. So it's changed what I write and what I share and the kinds of conversations I have. And the more I've come to do this sort of healing work for myself, this kind of nourishing work for myself a truly nourishing, figuring out what it is I, you know, want and I'm not just talking about, like, intuitive eating, like, just in life in general. What makes me feel my best and you know, I'm trying to do more of just those things and less than other things, including my work. You know, we were just chatting very briefly before we started recording that I'm not working on any book projects right now, which is all I've done for the last, like 15 years or so, you know, taking myself a little bit further away from sort of like the publishing industry, like just being in touch with all these types of things and doing this sort of more. Yeah, I guess, maybe paying closer attention to what makes me feel good, as opposed to what I think I am supposed to be doing. What I should be doing. That kind of stuff. Yeah, that arc, that path has been both. Yeah, personal. And now a little bit more, I guess, loud. So if I'm maybe reappearing on your radar, yeah, that's interesting for me to hear and to hear where I came up before. And, you know, I think that speaks to probably your journey as well. So yeah, I mean, I could get more into it. I'm happy to but I feel like I'm, I tend to go on slight tangents. And I forget the actual question.

Laura Thomas  I mean, same. Yeah, I yeah, there were so many, like threads that I wanted to pull on in what you were saying there. And I think the first that struck me was this idea that you had, upon reflection, survived a 10 year long eating disorder. And to me, where my mind went immediately was just thinking about how pervasive and normalised diet culture is, that an eating disorder can just slip under the radar like that.

Julia Turshen Yeah, I mean, I have a few thoughts about that. And one is that I think people who aren't in like the smallest of bodies tend to not be diagnosed and tend to not be given care and support. And, you know, I don't it's, it's, it's tricky. I don't know, I don't have like a date on a calendar when I was like, oh, that's when I first developed an eating disorder, it was sort of a, you know, 1000 paper cuts kind of thing, I feel like and you know, very much around just the household and culture I grew up in, which was not very different than most people's, at least, like in the West. And I think that I feel like my, sort of my issues and challenges and mental health issues like around food, and around my weight, I mean, started really, really young. But because I was always in like a slightly, like a little bit of a fat body. I was just constantly told any effort I made to lose weight, to make my body smaller, was a really good thing. And it was rewarded. And it was validated, which went on for more than 10 years, and like for, you know, a huge portion of my life, and that it's just really confusing to be struggling with something and then to get just a lot of validation, a lot of kind of like endorsement for that struggle. That's a very confusing thing. I think that's something a lot of people go through. And I've talked to a lot of fat friends who have really, really similar experiences, and people who are in bodies much larger than mine who deal with a lot more stigma and a lot more hate and who have had raging eating disorders and have never received any help and haven't known how to ask for it, where to ask for it, even how to talk about it. So I think that's kind of a big part of it for me. And yeah, I think the normalising the, like socially accepting way, a lot of eating disorders and just sort of disordered eating just is, you know, it's so pervasive, and I think especially among people who are you know, socialised and conditioned as women, especially among I think like affluent white women, it's, I think it's, it's, it's uncommon to not have that kind of relationship to food. I feel like I've viewed that a lot not to say eating disorders, I mean, they're prevalent among people of all different races and backgrounds and I think appear in different ways. But yeah, I think it's, it's really fascinating to me, how much people are struggling and how little recognition there is of that, and not even just the small amount of recognition but also like the celebrating that happens around that. So you know, back to your like, first question, which is just such a lovely question. Like in terms of who am I nourishing and the fact that my mind went to myself, something I think a lot about now at this point in my life is like I don't receive that much outside validation about my body from anyone anymore except really like my spouse. And I used to when I was actively trying to like make myself smaller, I used to hear a lot of yeah, validation. But now, it's the type of validation I can give myself. And I was never able to before. So to me, that's a form of nourishment to validate my own body and to treat it kindly, and to give it what it wants and needs.

Laura Thomas  Yeah, what an amazing gift to be able to give yourself and I want to come back to that in a second. Because, as you were talking earlier, just about I think what colloquially or maybe more academically gets called weight. Stigma is certainly a term that I've used before. But the more I'm doing this work, the less comfortably it kind of sits with me just because for all kinds of reasons we can get into another time. But I think what we're talking about really is this deeply entrenched t bias in eating disorder care. And it made me think of Deb Burgard's, quote about, you know, we, we prescribe behaviours to higher weight folks or fat folks that we diagnose as disordered, in thin and lower, you know, small, that's not I'm paraphrasing, obviously. But, but that I think that sentiment is so powerful. And I remember the first time I heard Deb, say, that kind of like, really just stopped me in my tracks. It's so true. And then, you know, having worked in the eating disorder field, and the number of clients that I've seen in bigger bodies, and, you know, they don't, you know, they could be kind of normal size bodies, in inverted commas, and still be gaslit and undermined and not believed, just constantly, and then, you know, that only intensifies as people's bodies get bigger. So all of that is to say, you know, there's, there's a lot that we need to do in that space, to make sure that folks across the weight spectrum, get the appropriate care. And then going back to your, I just remembered, going back to this idea of, of offering, being able to offer yourself care and, and sort of validation. How, how did you get to that point? Because I think this is something that so many of us struggle with constantly. And that's not to say that, you know, you feel like you're nailing it every single day. But I'm curious to hear, you know, what, what does that look like for?

Julia Turshen Yeah, no, I think that turning point question is so important. It's something I asked a lot of other people to, because that's been really helpful for me to find my own turning point. It's so easy to kind of talk about the sort of like before or after that moment, but like, you know, what, like, informs that moment? And I wish I had a simple answer. I wish I was like, I read this one page, and here it is. And you can all have it too. Yeah, again, it was just a large amount of small things, I would say the major ones are, first was meeting Grace, my spouse who also has a history of an eating disorder. But something we both brought to our relationship, just Grace was more aware than I was. So I got to have the benefit of being in love with someone who had been through something really hard that I was about to go through and didn't quite know. And so I had this built in support that I'm just incredibly grateful for. I also had Grace's boundaries, because Grace entered into a relationship with someone who, you know, me, who had a really, really just disgruntled relationship with my own body. And that was very challenging and triggering for grace to be around. So Grace set up boundaries around that. Grace asked me not to talk about whatever diet I was on or asked me to kind of not talk about the excessive exercise thing I was doing. And, you know, I won't go into like more detail, because I know that can bring up stuff for people but Grace set really firm boundaries in our relationship. And those were really helpful for me, because made me kind of pause and I didn't feel judged in what I was doing. But I felt like oh, if I if what I'm doing is potentially causing the person I love harm. I think it's worth pausing and being like, is it causing me harm? So that was incredibly helpful. Another big thing that I would say inform this kind of turning point for me this kind of, I don't know what I can only think of as like sort of like a paradigm shift is really doing the kind of education and learning to understand where all of this comes from and to realise how not alone am in any of this, I'm sure, there's probably people who listen to your show. Like, I don't think we're just talking to each other, right. And there's probably a lot of people who understand what we're talking about, like, we're all safest to all of us. Like, we're just not alone. This is so common. And it's common, because it's not personal, like this all comes from these huge systems. And so the more I learned, and continue to learn about things like racism, and you know, the roots of anti fat bias being very racist roots being rooted and things like white supremacy, the more I understood these systems and and I've seen how diet culture and anti fat biases comes from them. One, I get it more. Like, it just makes sense. Where it used to feel kind of, I don't know, a bit more opaque now, it just feels incredibly clear to me. And with that clarity, I guess to I don't know if I'm like numbering things. But But yeah, with that clarity comes this feeling for me, that feels very energising where I don't feel, I don't feel so not, I don't mean this to be such a bad pun, but I just I don't feel as weighed down by all of this, I feel like Oh, this isn't, I didn't do anything wrong. Like I have just grown up in a, in a group of systems that are really harmful. So kind of like to use by house metaphor we were talking about earlier, like, I live in a house where a lot of things are broken, yes. But like there's a lot of opportunities to improve things to make this a nicer house to live in a safer house to live in. So looking at it that way, to me feels, yeah, kind of galvanising like, and making it feel less personal. Also, lets me take myself out of the centre of it, like I, I feel like I got to a place with diet culture with my own eating disorder, where I just felt like I was sick of thinking about myself all the time, talking about myself all the time, like, I felt like I got to this incredibly self centred place. That was, I don't know, it's sort of boring for me, like, I find other people a lot more interesting. Or being in community with other people a lot more interesting. So yeah, I'd say those were the major things was just my, my personal, closest relationship, and having this kind of anchor of love and safety and support, and understanding. And then the other big thing is sort of the opposite. It's like this understanding of huge systems that just aren't personal. Those two things really have helped me. And then some more tangible things are working on this in therapy, specifically, with people who have training in, you know, helping people with eating disorders, and specifically with people who have kind of a weight neutral anti diet approach to that, because that's not everyone who's trained in eating disorders is I don't have to explain to you,

Laura Thomas  Yeah, it can be so harmful, yeah, if they don't have, if they're not using that lens. 

Julia Turshen  Yeah, that's the kind of thing but like, honestly, that keeps me up at night is thinking about how hard it is to ask for help to realise you even need help, and then to go seek it and have that help turn out to be more harmful. And then, you know, that can put you off of help in general like that. Just it makes me so scared. Sad, but yeah, seeking out people who have this approach. That's been amazing. And the other thing that's been hugely, hugely helpful, which I continued to this day is just a not doing this kind of healing work alone. I've been part of a group therapy, which has been amazing. I've also joined groups, including a hiking group that I like love so much that it used to be called the plus size hikers of the Hudson Valley, the Hudson Valley is where I live. And now there's been a renaming. It's the body liberation hiking club, just to kind of include some more people, but being with a group of people expanding the just my friendship circle and being able to be in community with people who have had similar experiences to not feel so alone in it has been really powerful. And it's helped me develop like language to talk about the people who are in my life who don't have that background. That's been amazing because I think diet culture isolates us I think it's part of how it sinks its teeth in and how it kind of thrives. So I think combating it in community is I don't know for me it's it works.

Laura Thomas  100% This is a kind of any of my clients are listening, they'll recognise that I've been banging on about community quite a lot lately is for this exact reason. You know, you you said earlier that you know when you learn about all of the, you know, plethora of systems of oppression then you're kind of making us feel a particular way about our bodies, that when we kind of externalise the blame and the shame, we realise that it's not personal. It's not about us. And at the same time, what you've just said, is that diet culture makes us feel like we're completely alone in it does feel so personal, even though it's not right. And I think like, their connections to white supremacy culture, and they're just connections to capitalism in there in terms of like, keeping us isolated and separated and, and make us feel like, you know, we're competing not just with the people around us, but like, our, our past selves.

Julia Turshen  Yeah. Big time.

Laura Thomas  It's a bit fucked up when you think about it.

Julia Turshen  Yeah, like I one of my things, that continues to be like a really big challenge for me. And I know, a lot of people feel this too, is like, seeing, you know, a picture of myself from a different point in my life, when my body was different, when it was smaller, and feeling that kind of like, competing with myself thing, and then talking myself through that moment, and, you know, remembering what I was experiencing, to be in that body, and also not belittling that time in my life, either. And just, you know, just trying to be compassionate kind of all around. But yeah, that is definitely like a hard thing for me. And then I have the moment where I think, Wow, this feeling of feeling like competitive with myself, or just judging myself, which is all I think, like competition is, that's part of it. Right? So then I just in that moment, I'm like, oh, that's what this is. And to just be able to name it just helps me move through it more quickly, and not kind of dwell on it and have it, you know, get me down.

Laura Thomas  Yeah. And I think that's also where that community piece comes in, again, isn't being able to say, I'm feeling like this. This and yeah, that validated and have that held. tenderly and then someone also remind you well, yeah, but like, that's what you've been indoctrinated to think and just pull you you back out of that a little bit?

Julia Turshen  Yeah, having someone else, whether it's in person, on Zoom, or maybe listening to a podcast, whatever. But having someone else just be able to say like, of course, like, of course, this is why you feel that way, like, I have experienced that moment, so many times. And it is, it's never not helpful to just have someone just see that and get it and, you know, to feel not alone. And that is a really incredible feeling.

Laura Thomas  Something you have been talking about a lot on your podcast recently, which I have just been beating up is you've been kind of exploring appetites with people and what it means to be a human that has an appetite and what it means to embrace your appetite and not be ashamed of it, I suppose. And so I'm really curious to turn that question back with you and ask you, what's your relationship with your appetite now?

Julia Turshen  Well, first, thanks for listening. It's been a great series to work on, because I'm just I'm fascinated by this word. And this concept. And I think for so long, I thought having, you know, a large appetite for food, or, obviously an appetite for food, just period. I thought that was not a good thing. And that was something I would spend my whole life working against. You know, I thought I was going to spend a lifetime trying to diminish my appetite. And then when I kind of zoomed out, and I thought about that, I thought, Wow, that's so fucking sad. And I guess my relationship to my appetite, or my appetites now is one of just tremendous curiosity. I feel like I've spent so long trying to pretend I don't want things. But now, I am just so curious about like, what do I want, and then finding moments when I want a lot of something or a lot of things like when I have like a large appetite, I am just trying to go towards that with open arms. And I feel grateful to be someone who wants Yeah, who wants. I'm grateful to be someone who wants. I'm grateful to live a life that has desire in it. But I know, there's a lot of things I want, because there's a lot of things I enjoy. And it's not just food, but it's also very much food like I love food. And I love cooking. And part of why I've spent so long working on cookbooks and doing the work I've done is because I genuinely love it. Like I love growing it. I've spent a lot of the last kind of year two working at a farm. I love preparing it. Like I love cleaning vegetables. It's like a really, I don't know, it's something most people hate. But like, I love running water. I'm grateful for running water like, and I love cooking and I love eating and like my favourite memories like my, especially like my closest friends. I just got home from a week with two of my absolute best friends. And we all just love to eat together. And it's like we're so many of my best memories are so there's so much joy there and so much pleasure. And I guess I'm just pretty sick of trying to make that smaller. I just I want I want lots of that. So I guess that's where I am with my appetite now for food specifically and just my appetites in general. I just feel very open, I think. Yeah.

Laura Thomas  I love that you pluralise, is that word?

Julia Turshen  I'm with you, maybe, I don't know.

Laura Thomas  Appetites, and I yeah, I love that kind of thinking about it about the word appetite in a kind of more generative and expansive way rather than just simply food. Also, you know, what I'm really hearing you say is that's being able to reclaim your appetite has been, It sounds really healing and really powerful for you.

Julia Turshen  Yeah. Yeah, it definitely has been for sure.

Laura Thomas  And I, you know, yeah, sorry, my brain is going in lots of different directions. I just, I guess, I guess something that I want to also acknowledge is that, you know, that that in and of itself is a privilege, right? Being able to own, your appetite and your desire. I was rereading Roxane Gay's memoir hunger recently. And it just kind of Yeah, it was just prompting me there that that that's it's an enormous privilege to be able to own your appetites and desires around food, particularly, you know, as your body gets bigger, and there's a loss of privilege that comes along with that. So just yeah, I just wanted to acknowledge that more than anything. Sorry. Were you going to add something to that there?

Julia Turshen  No, I was just thinking, I appreciate you doing that, and kind of adding that layer to it. Because it is so complicated. You know, it's really, it's lovely for me to sit here and tell you how much I love to cook and eat. I mean, that's great. But it's also various, I mean, that's like reeks of privilege, like Grace, my spouse, we do a lot of work with our local food pantry. And I'm always thinking about, you know, my neighbours, like people I live with, in my zip code in my community who don't have the same agency I have to choose what I'm eating, you know, even if we're able to give as much choice as we possibly can at the pantry, it's still not, it's not the experience I have of going to the farmers market, and then this grocery store to purchase this brand of thing I like and to go to the other store, because they have the bread I prefer and to have the time to do all that to have the money to do all that. To have those resources to have the kind of choice I have, is a huge, huge privilege. So yeah, not to mention what you brought up with Roxanne's book, which was just, you know, so phenomenal. But yeah, the privilege of being in a body that isn't judged as much as others when I am eating to be able to eat what I want in public as a privilege. So yeah, it goes on and on and on. I think I just appreciate any opportunity to like, name those things and recognise it because none of it is that simple. It's like all incredibly nuanced.

Laura Thomas  Yeah, no, and I think of you very much as someone who's very aware of your privilege, and will name it at, you know, with unprompted without any kind of, you're like "here's all my privilege, look at it." And at the same time, I brought you here, I invited you here to talk about you and your appetite and there is something so powerful about being able to reclaim appetite and appetites. And I was wondering if you could for anyone who's like, well, that's a bit abstract. When you talk about appetite, are you able to just kind of share a little more what that looks like in your life?

Julia Turshen  Sure. Yeah, I mean, I guess I use the term appetite to mean anything, I guess that I'm longing for or that I desire. And I think it's yeah, it's interesting to have this question turned on me.

Laura Thomas  I hate when that happens when you're doing an interview and you're like, Oh, God, that's what it feels like.

Julia Turshen  It's really interesting. Because I think there's things we need, right like we need food and clothing and shelter. We can have appetites for those things but I guess I think about appetite as kind of yeah, can, I guess all needs have appetites, maybe? But not all appetites are necessarily needs? I don't know I might be making this too complicated. But I yeah, I guess I think about appetite and the plural of appetite, multiple appetites as being a way to describe the things I want, not just the things they need is, I guess a simpler way of saying that. So for me, that includes things like I have a large appetite for rest. Like, I want a lot of rest. It's not something I permitted much of in my life. And I have, at this point in my life, a large appetite for it, I want, I guess, a lot of connection. Like, I have an appetite for connection, like I want time with my friends, I want time with my family. I want time with my spouse that, you know, isn't just both of us, like on our phones, while we're watching TV.

Laura Thomas  No shade if that's all you can muster up.

Julia Turshen  We all need to zoom out, totally. I have a large appetite for nature, I feel my best when I'm outside, I have a big appetite for water, like being in water, like pool, ocean, shower, a puddle, I don't care, like I love being in water. So I guess my appetites are, when I'm in touch with them. To me, that means I'm in touch with the things that make me feel just really good. And I guess overall, my appetite is I want to feel good. And the more I'm able to do that, the more time and energy, I have to help provide that for other people.

Laura Thomas  I love that everything that you talked about there. I mean, again, with all the caveats around around privilege, but everything you talked about, there was non-material, right?

Julia Turshen  That's true. Yeah.

Laura Thomas  And, as I'm, you know, I'm always kind of half thinking with like, a clinician's hat on or, I was just thinking about this idea that maybe some of those indulging as it were, some of those other appetites may be more accessible for people as they are, you know, reclaiming. You know, being able to kind of take pleasure in the outdoors or in water or with rest might feel like an easier starting point than, than food, like, to kind of graduate towards.

Julia Turshen  Totally, and I think, at least for me, the, anytime I am aware of an appetite of mine, and I go towards that thing, and I experience it, it liberates me to seek that in other areas. So, you know, the more I take a nap, when I'm tired, the more I remind myself that it's okay to like, feel what my body wants and provide it so that can then later extend to food, you know, or other things. So I think it feels more accessible. To acknowledge your appetite in one area of your life. Like I definitely would start there. Like, go through the door that feels easy to walk through food can be hard to can. I mean, I definitely know that. So I think sometimes when it comes to recovery and healing, a thing I noticed myself doing, which I'm sure is true for a lot of people as you kind of get stuck in the same mindset that got you to the place where you you need the healing and recovery. Like sometimes I feel like I need to ace healing. Yes. Like I need to excel at healing. I need to be the best at healing. It's like what are you doing? This is how you got here.

Laura Thomas  I totally get what you mean, I had this conversation with a client the other the other week who was like, seeing, this is kind of a detour. But she was seeing a lot of kind of examples of intuitive eating that kind of had this like wellnessy tint to them. And she felt like she was failing at intuitive eating. I felt kind of heretic. I felt like a heretic saying it at the time. But I was like, what if we just don't use the label intuitive eating. If that's not helpful for you then let's just completely ditch that. Yeah, because otherwise what we're doing is replicating that same all or nothing, black and white, perfectionist thinking that made you so good at dieting.

Julia Turshen  Exactly. Yeah, exactly. I like I also I think about the word success all the time. Like you said, your client felt like they weren't succeeding at this. And I'm constantly just evaluating how I'm defining that word, and what it means. So whether it's --

Laura Thomas  Sorry, I just I'm so curious to know because, you know, in my mind, you know, I guess ostensibly you are a successful person you've written a best selling cookbook. So I'm so curious to hear what your relationship to that word.

Julia Turshen  Sure now. Yeah, I mean, in terms of, like, I guess, career wise or professionally, you know, I guess the way I think about success now is just having total control over my time, being able to say no to things, because it gives me more time, it gives me more flexibility around my time, that to me feels like success. And being able to be, you know, comfortable enough. I mean that financially, but I also mean that in terms of like time, to be able to think help the people I'm closest to, and help my community that feels like success, like we, I don't know, maybe it was February or something of this year, there's a really terrible ice storm in our area. And I don't know why knock on wood, but we didn't lose power, even though like everyone else did. And good friends of ours who live nearby, they did. And, you know, it was February, in the Northeast, and an ice storm. So you know, their house was quickly turning freezing cold and like their water didn't work, all that kind of stuff. And so they came over with their dog and their cat. And they stayed with us for a few days until their power came back. And we had such an easy time, kind of welcoming them, kind of wrapping our arms around them, we had plenty of food to share, we had a really good time we like you know, watch TV, and we cooked and and we were all safe and fine. And Grace said to me has really stayed with me, Grace was like, This feels like success, like, you know, getting your book on any particular list or getting a certain amount of money for an advance or that kind of stuff. Like, yeah, those are all markers that mean a lot of things to a lot of people but getting to be able to like, provide this safe space for our friends when there was a really bad storm like that felt successful. So I would say that's how I define it kind of professionally, in terms of kind of healing work, like this idea of it just really has struck me this idea of someone trying to succeed, intuitive eating, like I just really identify with that and where I am with that kind of personal kind of internal work. The way I think about success is how do I repair as opposed to, like, prevent. And so what I'm thinking about is like that example I gave before about like, it can be hard for me to see pictures of myself when my body was different. So for a while, I just stopped looking at any pictures, because like, I don't look at them, then it's not challenging, which was really helpful for a while because I just wasn't really ready to. And then I thought, Oh, if I do enough kind of work and therapy and whatever, and all this personal kind of internal work, maybe I can get to a point when if I see a picture, I won't feel anything like I'll just feel natural. Or I'll feel like I love my body no matter its size or shape or you know, this like really kind of Pollyanna. And now I feel like I might not be able to prevent that feeling. But I know I can repair when I when I have a hard time. So to me success is in the is in the repair. And it's not being afraid to feel kind of hurt. But knowing I can kind of get through it that feels like I don't know if that's success, but it's like definitely where I feel most energised.

Laura Thomas  Well, it's definitely a much more realistic approach, you know, we're never going to be able to fully tune out diet culture as much as you know, we'd love to create that. 

Julia Turshen  Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Laura Thomas  It's just, you know, probably not going to happen in our lifetime, at least, but having the tools to be able to, as you say, repair when there's that rupture between you and your body. That feels like yeah, definitely. I don't know the success like you say doesn't doesn't feel quite right. But it feels like that's that's the right track to be.

Julia Turshen  Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah.

Laura Thomas  So I would love to know who or what is nourishing you right now.

Julia Turshen  This question feels easier to answer. There are so many people and things nourishing me. Grace, we've talked a lot about our animals, we have two dogs and a cat who provide such a huge amounts of just joy and humour and, like non judgement, and just affection and they nourish me so much. And my closest friends nourish me so much. And I mentioned briefly but I just got home from about a week with two of my closest friends. One has two young kids and we've all known each other for a long time now and you know, getting to watch like one of my best friends, like, become this really awesome parent is that feels really nourishing it feels really incredible to watch people you love, just enter new chapters. That feels really good. And yeah, deeply connected. And I was realising the other day like, oh, well, I've known your kids since they were born like, they're really little now. But like, I'll know these people since they were born. Like, that's so cool. That made me feel really happy. So, yeah, I guess people and animals are very nourishing to me. And where I live, I get to live in a place where I can go hiking a lot, and I can go see a really beautiful view. And I just have a lot of opportunities to remember the world is a lot bigger than me.

Laura Thomas  Ah, it has been. So I think I feel like I say this to all my guests. I hope that listeners will get bored of me saying this, but it's so nourishing just to have these conversations, which is really the idea behind this podcast. So I hope that it's it's felt nourishing for you as well. Before you go, I would love it. If you could tell us what you're snacking on right now. So that is that can be you know, literally, a snack that you're enjoying are it can be kind of anything, a book, a TV show. Anything. I would just love to hear what your recommendation is?

Julia Turshen  Yeah, I have many. But first, I will just tell you, Yes, this has been very nourishing, creamy and just great. And I think conversations like this one, to me are a big part of this kind of healing work. And help me just feel connected to you, in this moment. feel more connected to myself just have a chance to reflect on this. And obviously to feel connected to whoever you know, have stayed with us at the end of this conversation.

Laura Thomas  I'm sure lots of people will be hanging on to the very end.

Julia Turshen  Thank you. Um, what am I snacking on? So much, I am literally snacking on so much popcorn. I make popcorn all the time. But we also live near a place I don't know how widely available it is outside of the East Coast. But there's a popcorn company called Bjorn Qorn. And it's actually made really close to where we live and they make all these great flavours and it's just so good. And I buy so many bags of it and it's delicious. And I just had some which is why it's on my mind. But other than popcorn, and lots of I'm like in a big melon moment. Melons are really good right now. Also lots of

Laura Thomas  I really miss late summer in the north, the northeast and like going to, it's a bit boujee, but like the farmers markets are they are like out of this world.

Julia Turshen  Now's the time, like I know that from when we're recording and this comes out it'll be you know a little bit but kind of end of August, beginning of September, is like if you're gonna go to a farmers market just like one or two weeks of the year like though now, like now is just the best time so yeah, like a piece of toast with a lot of mayonnaise and a slice tomato and lots of salt. That's a go to snack right now. And other than all these delicious foods and getting lots of soft serve ice cream, other things I'm snacking on that I think are, I don't know sort of pertain to the conversation we're having. I feel like I've been telling everyone in my life to read Angela Garbes's book Essential Labour, which I believe her subtitle is mothering as social change. And yeah, I got to talk to her on my podcast. She's incredible. She's such a phenomenal just person and thinker and writer. And her book, whether or not you're a parent, you know Grace and we do not have biological children. I don't mean biological, I mean human children. To say we have animals is what we have. But even still, I took just so much from Angela's book and the way she talks about care work, which is I think, really what we're talking about today, I think it's just really profound. I think anyone who got anything out of our conversation would get so much so much more out of Angela's book. 

Laura Thomas  I have been buying it for all of my friends. 

Julia Turshen  It's so incredible. And then a TV show just to throw in there. I watched now for the second time Lizzo's show, which is her what's it called? Like, Welcome to the Big Girls? I might be getting that wrong or just Big Girls and it's her kind of reality show about getting backup dancers for her performances and it's incredible I just love it. Love it love it. I think it's kind of required viewing for everyone.

Laura Thomas  I had forgotten actually that it exists, I haven't seen it yeah, I'll put my hand up and say that I haven't.

Julia Turshen  I'm jealous that you get to watch it for the first time. I'm so envious.

Laura Thomas  I keep, I keep meaning to, and then it just like yeah, I forget. That seems to be a theme. I'm gonna write it down because I really need to get on that. I've heard amazing things about it. So,

Julia Turshen  It's so much fun. It's just great fun to watch. And it's just really sweet. And yeah, I think it's incredibly empowering. 

Laura Thomas  Oh, I need to check it out for sure. So my thing real quick, I feel like I'm probably really late to the game with this. And you might have read it, but it kind of, it's called, 

Julia Turshen  oh, mmhmm

Laura Thomas  Yeah, Crying -- I'm holding the book up for Julia to see -- but it's called Crying in H Mart. It's by Michelle, I think, Zauner is how you pronounce her last name. And it is, this isn't a spoiler. But basically, this young, I believe she's a Korean American woman, her mother dies. And she's kind of exploring their tumultuous relationship through food and the meaning of food and what that means, what that meant for their relationship and what it means for her going forward. And I'm only a couple of chapters in and it's just such a beautifully written book. It's got, it's got a bit of everything in it. So yeah, but the bringing the, you know, all the stories kind of revolve around food, which I totally enjoy. And I love that about Angela's book as well. There was so much food. I think I found out on, was it your podcast? I think I found out that she used to be a food writer. Ah, that makes sense.

Julia Turshen  Yeah, for a newspaper in Seattle, it was like, yeah, this makes sense. I recently, I don't know maybe a month or two ago, I read Crying in H Mart and I felt the same. I felt like everyone in my life had read it. And I was like, how come I haven't read this yet? So I just read it. Her writing is beautiful. And yeah. Food is everywhere in that book. And I think she just reminds us how much it can kind of tether us to other people. So yeah, I loved that that was your snack. 

Laura Thomas  Yeah, well, I'll link to that in the show notes and some of the other bits and pieces like Angela's book that we mentioned. And I'll also link to your newsletter, which I just have to just gush about for a second because I love it. And I just love that the way that as I'm reading it, I feel like you're kind of telling me what to do. But I don't mean that in like a, you're not doing it in a patronising way, but it's just this really like, here's how you can do this. And I just feel like you're right there kind of like holding our hands through it.

Julia Turshen  I'm thrilled it feels that way. That's great. Yeah. 

Laura Thomas  And it just is so helpful. Because there's like all these, like, great, I think I feel like you're cooking is about making things like, just not easy and like, again, like a patronising way, like trying to, like water things down, but just like what's going to be accessible and tasty and delicious. And just like make food, like joyful that, like I really there is this like palpable joy that I get from your newsletter. So I will link to that. I think you've changed my mind about air fryers.

Julia Turshen  That's really, that's success.

Laura Thomas  If I had enough space in my like tiny, postage stamp sized apartment in London, then I would definitely be getting one of those. But I don't so. Yeah, I thought they were like the reserve of like this 60+ set. And you've changed my mind on that.

Julia Turshen   I mean, that's where I am emotionally for sure. But I'm thrilled to hear you say all this.

Laura Thomas  But yeah, so would you like to let everyone know where they can find you on the internet?

Julia Turshen  Yeah, for sure. So I guys, everything about me, my work, various kind of things I've done. And I do. It's all at juliaturshen.com. I'm on Instagram @turshen. And, yeah, right now the things that I'm excited about that I'm doing regularly are writing a mostly a once a week newsletter, sometimes a little tiny bit less, sometimes a little bit more. But yeah, a mix of kind of recipes and some essays and a love letter to my airfryer, which I just really do adore. It's not for everyone. But for those of us who love it, it's great. And I also teach these online, live cooking classes every Sunday afternoon, which is something I started nearly a year ago and they are just so much fun. And it's kind of this opportunity I have once a week to just together with other people who love to cook at home to do what you just described as best I can to make cooking feel really joyful and really approachable. And I just I love teaching these classes and I've taken a little time off during the summer but they're back now in September and yeah, it's I look forward to it so much and people from all over the world joined so if it's not at a convenient time for you, they are recorded so you can watch it at a different time. But yeah, There are a lot of fun. All of that's on my website.

Laura Thomas  All on your website and also your newsletter and your podcast are both called Keep Calm and Cook On so I'll link to everything in the show notes for everyone. Julia this has been such a delight. I knew it was gonna be great talking to you, but I had even more fun than I expected. So thank you so much for being here.

Julia Turshen  Yeah, thank you for having me. This was great was felt very meaningful and I just felt very held in this. So thanks for for asking me

Laura Thomas  Thank you so much for listening to this week's episode of Can I Have Another Snack? If you enjoyed this episode, please take a moment to rate and review in your podcast player and head over to laurathomas.substack.com for the full transcript of this conversation, plus links we discussed in the episode and how you can find out more about this week's guest. While you're over there, consider signing up for either a free or paid subscription Can I Have Another Snack? newsletter, where I'm exploring topics around bodies, identity and appetite, especially as it relates to parenting. Also, it's totally cool if you're not a parent, you're welcome too. We're building a really awesome community of cool, creative and smart people who are committed to ending the tyranny of body shame and intergenerational transmission of disordered eating. Can I Have Another Snack? is hosted by me, Laura Thomas, edited by Joeli Kelly, our funky artwork is by Caitlin Preyser. And the music is by Jason Barkhouse. And lastly Fiona Bray keeps me on track and makes sure this episode gets out every week. This episode wouldn't be possible without your support. So thank you for being here and valuing my work and I'll catch you next week.

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