The Dark Urge

#362: The crew discusses Baldur’s Gate 3 and The Dark Urge origin character, how they can be used as a metaphor for intrusive thoughts, and the severe lack of therapists and social workers in Faerûn.

Transcript

Josué (00:01.95)
Welcome to GT Radio on the Geek Therapy Network. Here at Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona and I am joined by Marc Cuiriz Link Keller, and Lara Taylor. Everybody, what y’all playing lately?

Marc (00:12.497)
Hello?

Link Keller (00:14.667)
Yo.

Lara (00:16.879)
Hey!

Josué (00:23.242)
Anything? Anything good? Anything near? Tears of the Kingdom? Yeah? Pardon, Marc, what are you playing?

Lara (00:24.903)
Tears of the kingdom.

Marc (00:28.428)
Kitty Collector.

Link Keller (00:28.834)
Oh, I’ve been…

Marc (00:31.581)
I’m playing kitty collector.

Josué (00:33.09)
Kitty Collector Link?

Link Keller (00:35.63)
I’ve just been putting just, you know, a couple of hours into a little indie game that I’m sure none of you guys have heard of. It is a sequel. It is part of a series. Just a small, small little game nobody knows about called Baldur’s Gate 3 and… Whoaaaaa!

Link Keller (01:00.748)
Yeah.

Lara (01:00.899)
I mean, that’s also what I’m playing.

Josué (01:00.994)
I thought you were going to say moving out too. Yeah, but yeah, Baldur’s Gate 3. I think, have we all been playing it? Marc, are you playing? Yeah, for sure.

Marc (01:03.156)
Yeah.

Marc (01:08.32)
I am looking at my steam right now. I have played it for a solid 84 minutes because I literally bought it two days ago.

Lara (01:15.995)
I’m sorry.

Link Keller (01:17.01)
84 minutes that’s pretty close to the amount of time that I’ve put into the game which if I pull if I pull open My steam right now it says No, it says 227.9 hours

Josué (01:17.186)
That’s a bet.

Marc (01:21.605)
Oh yeah, I-

73.1

Marc (01:30.252)
Oh wait, hold on, I’m sorry, that says 73.1 hours played recently.

Link Keller (01:35.75)
Yes, because I had already put over 100 hours into this game when it was in early access and one might suspect that maybe I would chill out about it. No, not even a little bit. I’m going harder than ever. I can’t stop thinking about it. I’m constantly thinking about it. Right now I am thinking about it. Are we actually done? Can I go play?

Lara (01:43.21)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (01:44.081)
Oh.

Link Keller (02:04.043)
My babies.

Josué (02:04.214)
Before you go, can you tell us what the game is and what it’s about?

Link Keller (02:08.658)
It is a RPG. The first one came out in, I wanna say 96, 98 maybe? Late 90s, early 2000s. And I played those games, Baldur’s Gate 1 and Baldur’s Gate 2 a shit ton in my youth. And I have been excited for more Baldur’s Gate since 2007.

Josué (02:27.822)
same.

Lara (02:28.646)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (02:37.494)
when they started promoting Dragon Age Origins as the spiritual successor to Baldur’s Gate. I’ve been craving it. It did not hit that mark for me, but Baldur’s Gate 3, it is more Baldur’s Gate. It is a different game. It plays a little bit different. It plays a little bit more similarly to Larian Studios’ other games, Divinity, Original Sin, and that sequel, but it is still in its heart.

Baldur’s Gate game and so I am having so much fun playing. You get to make your little character. It is in the Dungeons and Dragons 5th Edition rule set. So most of the basic Dungeons and Dragons stuff is in the game. And yeah, I made my little character and I collect my little friends and we go on little adventures and then we do mass murder and stealing and…

Kissing? Mmm!

Lara (03:41.187)
Mass murder and stealing? I haven’t done any of that. Well, maybe mass murder. Of goblins.

Josué (03:48.142)
So many goblins.

Link Keller (03:48.248)
Just a little light murder. So anyways, I’m having an absolute blast with this game. It’s been something I’ve been excited about for years. And it’s fantastic. I’m enjoying it so much.

Josué (04:04.138)
Well, I too have been playing Baldur’s Gate 3 and that’s not really what I want to talk about today. I picked the topic, it’s not really about Baldur’s Gate 3, but there is a character in Baldur’s Gate 3 that you can choose that I want to talk about and just to kind of set off the conversation. But I will say that Baldur’s Gate 3 more than any other game that I’ve played… maybe ever?

But you can tell me what other games do this. And I recently played Divinity Originals sin two. I’ve played, I think I’ve played, you know, a variety of RPGs. But this game feels like it has, it almost feels like anything is possible in the sense that you have many different, like you meet somebody and you’re like, oh, I could befriend this person or I could kill them or I could kiss them. Like, I don’t know, like, anything feels possible.

And so I’m very hesitant at some things because there are some games where you’re like, I’m just gonna say this to see what happens, but I don’t really expect there to be a consequence. And in this game, I’m like, attack? No, I’m not gonna attack because if I attack, I’m gonna end up killing them. Or I might die, yeah, yeah. It’s gonna be a whole thing. And so the game is a lot of fun and it feels like there’s high stakes because I know an epi-

Link Keller (05:08.89)
Heheheheheheheheheheheheheh

Lara (05:13.629)
Mm-hmm. You might die or you might die. Yeah.

Josué (05:27.978)
character can die and then that’s it. Like their whole storyline, they could have been on your party, in your party for 207 hours or however many.

Link Keller (05:37.53)
Hahaha

Lara (05:38.231)
and the one wrong statement and that person dies in a battle.

Josué (05:41.006)
Or you could have killed them at the beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that I find impressive about the game. And I think that’s one of the reasons why right now it is beloved and getting very, very high scores in reviews. And so you can create your own character. How many of you created your own characters? All of you? Same. So I created a character of my own.

Lara (06:00.771)
I’m excited.

Link Keller (06:02.913)
Yes.

Josué (06:08.182)
Which is almost identical to yours, Lara, not surprisingly. Hahahaha

Link Keller (06:12.193)
Wow.

Lara (06:12.907)
Look, I’ve never played a Dragonborn. I wanted to play Dragonborn. I love Rangers. I want to be a Ranger. Yeah.

Josué (06:15.99)
Mine was a Dragonborn. Yep, yep. Yeah, yep, yep. So I created a character and then I saw, it wasn’t a review, there’s this YouTube channel called Fextralife where he does a whole bunch of coverage of the games and in a very technical way. Like this is one of those games that I’ve been studying. Like I watch hour long videos on every class before I decided what I wanted to do. And he made a video on this, one of them,

Link Keller (06:17.455)
Hehehehehehe

Josué (06:44.914)
Origin characters that you can choose. I think there’s 12, right, that are actual characters in the game that you can pick. And 12, is that too many? I think there’s 12 characters throughout.

Link Keller (06:54.362)
12? That’s way too many. There’s six companions which you can play as origin characters and then there’s the dark urge which would be seven.

Josué (07:03.111)
Uh-huh.

That’s it? Okay, then seven. Then half of what I said, then half.

Link Keller (07:09.326)
And Asterix, the Dark Urge one, is like, is your backstory that is provided to you. You still get to choose what class, race, what you look like, all of that stuff is still customizable as opposed to the companion origin characters, which look and are built the way that they are, though you can multiclass or reclass them through in-game. I don’t think so. I think they just look how they look.

Lara (07:17.884)
Mm.

Josué (07:29.918)
Oh, you can’t change the appearance of the other characters of the other originals. OK.

Lara (07:35.76)
Yeah.

Well, and when you think about this, game is pretty close to a direct port of D&D into video game form. And so that’s like getting a pre-gen versus building your own character. So yeah.

Josué (07:48.81)
Yep, yep, yep. And so there’s a dark urge. You just mentioned that character, right? So I see this video, this guy’s talking about the dark urge and he said something that was very GT to me. He was like, this character, what sets him apart from other characters is that he has these dark thoughts and I can really relate to that. Like sometimes I’m in a situation and I think something and I’m like, I’m not gonna do that, but I thought it.

And I’d never played a character, you know, in a game that had an experience like that. It’s like, wait, what, wait, what? How true is this? So I went and I gave up my character. I had only played a couple hours. And so I went and I switched over, started again as a dark urge. Literally that’s his name, the dark urge.

Lara (08:36.455)
Huh.

Josué (08:37.946)
And it is, I’ve never played a character like this. At least I can think of. I’ve played games that have morality systems where you can play as good or bad. And one that I really think about often is the Renegade and Paragon system in Mass Effect, where there’s like, as Shepard, I remember one option, right? Because I was pretty into the red, into the Renegade part. It was like, oh.

You can respond to this or you can punch him in the face. I was like, yeah, I’m going to punch him. There was an option to just pull the right trigger and punch him in the face. And I definitely just punched him in the face. But there were just two options. It was like, do this or now that you’ve unlocked this whole bad side, you can do things like that. But the dark urge is not like this. The dark urge has dark thoughts.

Lara (09:09.933)
I’m gonna go.

Josué (09:35.39)
really dark thoughts. And then the character does not want to have these dark thoughts. Without spoiling the experience for people who want to do it too much, the moment he wakes up, you realize he’s got amnesia. So he doesn’t know why he has all of these dark thoughts coming to him constantly. But those are options. And sometimes the option is just fantasize about ripping their head off, not actually ripping their head off. And

I saw it described by someone as like hard mode. It was like, it was some kind of hard mode where you’re like, even if you wanna play as a good guy, these bad choices are always there for you and they’re enticing you. And at times it almost seems like, it’s like you want to do them, right? Like your character.

Like you’re playing against what your character wants to do, because your character wants to rip their head off or eat their eyeballs or whatever it is that they want to do. So does that sound like another game that you’ve ever played before? I’m curious, because I’ve never played a game that has this kind of thing.

Lara (10:51.851)
Not this close. I think Knights of the Old Republic had light side, dark side, similar to the way morality system same way that you would in Mass Effect. But, but not anything quite like this.

Josué (10:56.854)
Yeah. Morality system. Yep.

Josué (11:01.91)
Yeah, same company too.

Josué (11:09.238)
Yeah. And there’s, and there’s games that you play where you’re playing, you know, like a bad character and they have and they’re they have an attitude, you know, and maybe their way of doing things is is. More of an antihero type of thing.

Lara (11:26.387)
Link and Kayla and I just talked about that kind of stuff not that long ago. Yeah

Link Keller (11:28.601)
Hehehe

Marc (11:29.364)
Hehehehehehe

Josué (11:30.314)
Oh, yeah, yeah. But very different to actually like have these dark thoughts there. And so I thought like this is such an interesting experience. And I thought of many different uses for something like this, right? Where it’s an experience that’s relatable to someone who, you know, has dark thoughts and is constantly fighting against them. But I also thought, and I’m curious what you guys think about this.

It gives me depression quest vibes. Where in depression quest, you have these different options. And sometimes there are options that you can’t choose, right? And you have good and bad options that are, you know, healthy and unhealthy options for you. And that’s what this feels like. It’s like, oh man, I don’t know if that’s what I should do or not. I can’t believe he even has this option. Like that’s crazy. That doesn’t seem like, I shouldn’t, right? Right? And then you look around and you’re all alone and nobody.

Link Keller (12:23.109)
Hehehehehe

Josué (12:28.802)
You realize you’re the conscience. You’re the conscience for this character. No, I mean like in real life, like you’re just like, I need somebody to like bounce this idea off of. Ha ha ha.

Link Keller (12:29.338)
No witnesses. Hehehe.

Lara (12:31.993)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (12:35.79)
Hahaha!

Marc (12:38.38)
Hehehe

Lara (12:40.24)
Yeah.

Josué (12:42.698)
Link, does this remind you of any games that you’ve played before?

Link Keller (12:45.582)
I think it’s pretty distinct. I think there’s some overlap with other games like Mass Effect. I think another overlap would be with something like The Last of Us, where the character makes choices that you, the player, do not agree with, and the emotional reactivity of that. But I think Baldur’s Gate III is sort of special in that way, in that it is

utilizing like is building off of like video game morality systems like the renegade paragon dichotomy there, but it’s also building off of Dungeons and Dragons morality system, which is sort of twofold. And there’s the good and evil, lawful chaotic cross alignment, but there’s also reputation, which is dependent on where you are.

where it’s like certain groups of people want you to do evil stuff and so you’ll get more reputation points with them for being a little bit naughty But other places you would lose reputation points for that and it’s like in Baldur’s Gate one and two those systems were there But they were very much under utilized under realized almost certainly because Computers can’t couldn’t handle that level of complexity, but they can now so it’s like so much more complexity

Lara (13:51.348)
Or a lot.

Marc (13:52.596)
Hehehe

Link Keller (14:11.714)
But what I think is the most interesting about the Dark Urge stuff is there are some of them that you are forced into doing. And some of them, it is an opt-in choice, right? When you get the little text, what your character is going to say, the next line in the conversation. Side note, Larian Studios has stated that they do not suggest people play the Dark Urge as their first play through.

And I think that this is part of it is because when you play through the first time and you have made your character, your character, depending on their race and class, gets special lines that are just for them. And so it’s like if you show up to the tiefling camp and you are a tiefling, you get to say different things than if you’re a drow or dwarf or human. And the same thing with like if you’re a barbarian, you get to show up and just be like, I’m going to sp-

split you in half with my big Axe and people are like, whatever you want, baby. But then if you’re like a rogue, which is what I’m playing as most of my rogue specific conversation pieces are just like, hey, I usually get paid for this, which I think is very funny. But it sort of creates this feedback loop where you’re playing this character.

you’ve invested in building it a certain way, you wanna click those options because those don’t show up in every play through. That’s special to this character. And so you wanna click them. And so when you have the dark urge, it’s like this extra layer of like, that’s the new option. I wanna pick the new one. And then it’s the, yeah. And so it’s this balancing act of like, well, like, do I…

Josué (15:49.922)
We have both. You have both now.

Lara (15:56.627)
I already played through in a nice way, maybe.

Link Keller (15:59.45)
I already did nice stuff, I’m ready to see the bad stuff, like what’s gonna happen, what are these consequences gonna be, are they gonna be like big consequences or are they gonna be- because sometimes like you build up this idea of like if I click on that things are gonna go sideways, like if I click that, if I click choice two instead of choice one, everything’s going to hell and you click it, you’re all ready and then nothing happens and it just is like-

Yeah, it’s a little spicier way of phrasing the thing I wanted you to say anyway is whatever and nobody responds to it. And you’re like, oh, okay. But we like the dark urge, it’s a whole extra layer on top of that. It’s like, is this the one? Is this the one? Is this going to have like huge repercussions? Is it going to, you know, get one of my characters killed? Is it going to completely close off a whole side quest to me if I click that option? But I want to click it because it’s got that special parentheses, dark urge around, like

I think that’s yummy, delicious brain stuff there.

Josué (16:57.566)
Yeah, yeah, it is. It is. It does add an extra layer of complexity. You’re like, oh, do I do the dragonborn one or do I do the kind of the twisted stuff?

Link Keller (17:07.354)
I do, and I do just want to say, like, as much as this game absolutely feels like a real tabletop Dungeons & Dragons game sometimes, it is a video game, and it has tools that tabletop games don’t have. Like quick save and quick reload. Please use them. They are vital to your game enjoyment. So you get that option pop-up.

Lara (17:25.339)
Hmm

Marc (17:26.653)
Ahem.

Link Keller (17:31.458)
I’m slamming that quick save button so I can click it and find out what happens. And if I don’t like it, I reload. And if I do like it, I keep playing. Maybe put a couple more quick saves down just in case. I actually, I remapped. My mouse has like a forward and back button on the side. I remapped the back button to be quick save. So I’m slamming that quick save button all the time.

Josué (17:57.549)
So I’ve been playing it as…

Josué (18:02.998)
I don’t have time to play four different versions of every interaction. And so I’ve started playing a while back, different games this way, where I’m like, fuck it, I’m just, this is it. This is whatever happens and I’m going to keep going forward. And so I mean, obviously I save a lot because just, I don’t want to die, but no, you know, you got to save in this game, but I haven’t really tried to play around with.

Link Keller (18:24.159)
Yeah, and it gets.

Lara (18:26.747)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (18:30.518)
So there are times when I don’t know what would have happened if he, if he did the thing. You brought up last of us. And that’s interesting because in the last of us, there’s this. Event that happens at the end of the first game that a lot of people disagree with. And I’ve, and I’ve, and I’ve read of people who just sat there because they didn’t want to do the thing that you had to do at the end. But that’s it. There was like, you had no choice. And the game kind of lets you just sit there. Really just.

Like, you know, whenever you’re ready, whenever you’re ready, you can press the button and do the thing.

Link Keller (19:03.886)
Just loop the soundtrack, we’re fine. Take your time.

Josué (19:06.278)
Yeah, and so the dark urge, for the most part, always gives you a choice. It’s more like there’s this voice in the back of your head. Also the narrator is fantastic. Like the narrator is constantly like, you fantasize about it, you know, like eating their eyes out or something. I don’t know. And you’re like, what does it, would you stop? And she makes it sound very enticing as well. And so that stuff is funny. There was one thing at the beginning that happened.

Lara (19:06.887)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (19:24.135)
Ha ha

Josué (19:34.786)
that was completely out of your control. And then, but then, then you get to react to it. And you get to decide like, I’m gonna own that shit or I’m going to feel bad about it. And I don’t, who am I as this character who has all these dark thoughts? Am I someone who embraces it?

Lara (19:56.299)
Am I, am I someone who doesn’t care or am I someone who does the thing anyway, but gives a shit?

Josué (20:03.662)
You can not care. You can absolutely care and show remorse. Or you can like double down and be like, damn right. And I do it again. Don’t cross me. And that kind of scope is, again, it is just, like you were saying, Link, it just adds this additional layer of like, I’m, I don’t know, there’s something that just feels more realistic about it. It’s like, you flip a switch that makes it.

Lara (20:08.848)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (20:32.714)
I mean it’s more realistic to like my internal thought processes while I am playing a video game. Where it’s like, ah I’m the hero of city and I’m here to save the day. I wonder what would happen if I shot directly into that big stack of exploding barrels.

Josué (20:33.326)
I don’t know.

Josué (20:39.678)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Josué (20:54.602)
So here’s the thing, right? Like when I play a video game, I am the character, right? I’m like, okay, I’m making this decision, but this character is constantly telling me that it is struggling with the choices that are being presented in front of it. So even when I want to play a certain way, he’s still pushing back on me in a way. And that is fascinating. That is just such a interesting experience. Hmm, so interesting.

Lara (21:05.968)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (21:24.038)
Mmm. Yummy!

Josué (21:24.514)
So Marc, what is it? Does this make you think of anything?

Marc (21:29.672)
Hmm, you know When when you when you guys were all kind of talking about like, you know Knights of the last Republic the last of us, you know Mass effect. Yeah, right the game that came to my mind was fallout and the morality system with that game because in fallout like yes, you have certain dialogue choices that you

Josué (21:40.118)
games that came out before you were born.

Lara (21:42.undefined)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (21:58.524)
that you make and that can either, you know, gain karma, lose karma. And again, it’s like a reputation based thing, but it’s also, it also takes it outside of just the dialogue where certain actions you do. We’ll also cause you to lose or gain that karma, whatever it might be. So you can play the game as, and you can be the asshole and just be like, you know, I’m a steal from everybody.

I’m going to kill you, I’m just going to destroy this and then you risk losing certain quest lines. Or you could try to be the savior of the wasteland and just try to be a goody two shoes. You know, it kind of opens you up for those sorts of things. And you know, for me, this is my first time playing any game. Like Baldur’s Gate is like my first, like this is my first experience with the series. This is my first experience with

Any game that’s even in this format like I’ve never played a game like this before. I mean, I’ve played dnd before so It I have some familiarity with it Um, so like it’s not like i’m a complete stranger but like Hearing things like you know, the dark urge like a character like that I know that like you guys were saying where You know, i’m sitting there playing fallout and i’m like, okay. I’m talking to this person. I know I need to be

Josué (22:59.662)
counts.

Marc (23:18.78)
okay with this person I got, I would get them on my good side. But I’m like, I wonder what happened if I just took this, this mini nuke and just decimated the whole squad right now, just because why not? But then you kind of look around, you’re like, oh, maybe I shouldn’t do that. And so I was tempted to have my very first playthrough be the dark urge. And I decided against it just because I was like, you know,

It sounds very enticing just to see what those choices are and just to kind of see just like how messed up they can really be. But at the same time, I was like, well, this is also my first time sort of playing through this sort of game. I want to try and do it. And I’m very much kind of like you, Josué where I am the character. It’s me making those choices. So when it comes to me, like when it comes to like those big decision making things or when any game kind of has

Lara (24:06.403)
Mm-hmm.

Marc (24:16.244)
choices that can impact the story. I will pause, unless it’s like a quick time choice decision thing, like Telltale games, I will pause it or I’ll leave it exactly as it is and I will Google it. Because I always want to make sure that I am making the right choice to get the outcome that I want. Because I don’t even want to save it. I just want to just get it right the first time.

Josué (24:33.41)
Yeah.

Lara (24:35.802)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc (24:44.224)
So I’m like, OK, what’s the right choice? But I also understand with a game like this, like that’s kind of impossible because almost every choice you’re making in some way, shape or form.

Lara (24:45.019)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (24:46.39)
Oh, you would hate the way I’m playing now. Yeah, yeah.

Lara (24:49.484)
It’s…

Lara (24:55.975)
There are so many choices in this game, so many choices that have impact.

Josué (24:58.646)
Yep.

Marc (25:00.048)
So, so this game is one of those things where I have to kind of be okay with like, all right, you know what? Fuck it. I’m just going to full send myself and just I’ll make these decisions. However, I would like originally make these choices as if I was the character and just see like, is my decision making abilities, are they actually up to snuff or do I just suck and I need to start rethinking how I how I make decisions in this world?

Lara (25:27.532)
It’s interesting.

Josué (25:27.678)
in real life or in the game.

Marc (25:29.692)
I think the game will be an accurate reflection about the real world based on, because every decision I plan to make is like, this is what I would do. Like, this is legitimately, like, if I was in this situation, if you took me and put me in that situation and I had these choices in front of me, this is the choice I would make. And just see, like, is that gonna get my whole party killed? Am I gonna die? Let’s find out.

Josué (25:32.398)
Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha.

Link Keller (25:36.534)
Bye.

Lara (25:38.427)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (25:47.675)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (25:53.455)
Marc, it’s interesting because you brought up the like, well, I know I need to be good with this person, so I’m going to pick this answer or whatever. And I mentioned earlier this game being close to a D&D like direct port, but it’s not quite because I think Kayla brought this up on the episode we did about anti-heroes, but we play a D&D game together. And one of our new players, first time playing D&D, doesn’t give a fuck. And like.

is playing, was playing a warlock, now playing a sorcerer. We came up against like, in the Hobbit with the spider webs around people and we were supposed to be rescuing people. And she saw us trying to rescue somebody and she just, Eldritch blast the spider web and almost killed this person, right? That we’re supposed to be saving. And so I think some people would like to just go in, play it differently.

go all in. In D&D you have a DM who can kind of shift, but like when you’re looking at this game, like, oh I know I need that person, I need to talk to them for something later probably so I’m going to avoid doing that. Because you don’t have a DM who can just pivot if someone dies.

Link Keller (27:04.63)
It’s like also in like tabletop, like when you’re playing with other players, like they are also real people who deserve to have, you know, moments in the spotlight and have choices that matter. And it’s not just you. But in a video game, it’s just you. You can’t this game does support multiplayer. We could play we could play co-op and it’s very fun to do. So I haven’t tried it in the actual game, but I played co-op in the early access a couple of times. It was.

Lara (27:16.796)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (27:21.195)
You can do whatever the hell you want. Yep.

Josué (27:23.382)
We could play co-op.

Link Keller (27:32.978)
a blast, but it is a very different gaming experience than when you are controlling your whole team.

Lara (27:40.675)
I think people at Larian have also suggested it’s a different game when you’re playing. You should play on your own and also play with people.

Link Keller (27:50.85)
It is a different kind of experience.

Josué (27:51.058)
I’ve only played Divinity Original Sin 2 with another person. And it’s if you’re going to play it with other people, you got to play it like a D&D campaign, I think. And you’ve got to kind of be on the same page. You can’t just play with somebody random. And they’re just they pick the dark urge and they’re just, you know, doing all this crazy stuff. I’m messing up the world for you. It’s good to be aligned. But a lot of the stuff that like a lot of the bad that you could play.

Lara (28:06.933)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (28:07.763)
Oh no, that sounds awful.

Josué (28:20.958)
Right? That you could attack everybody. You could, you can attack NPCs. You could kill a whole bunch of people. Like you can steal from, from people like you can still do that in the game.

Lara (28:24.39)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (28:28.964)
Oh yeah.

Link Keller (28:29.05)
The game is structured in such a way that the more evil choices you choose, the harder the game gets. The main way being… Yeah, I mean the main way being if you are aggro and violent, people fight you, so you have to do more fights than you would if you were being nice. But also your teammates can…

Josué (28:40.714)
And that’s true for the, my distinction is that that’s true for the dark urge as well.

Link Keller (28:56.058)
turn on you or leave, which means you have fewer resources gameplay wise and so it gets more difficult in that way as well.

Josué (29:04.778)
Yeah, those consequences.

Marc (29:05.492)
You know, I find that when I’m playing a game solo, I tend to try to be more of the good character. But when I’m playing with friends, I don’t give a shit. Like I will be, that’s where my chaotic energy just like reigns supreme. I would be the kind of person to be like, you know, when I’m with my party, try to convince them to just

Link Keller (29:07.482)
consequences.

Lara (29:19.313)
Hahaha!

Link Keller (29:20.639)
Time for chaos!

Marc (29:34.932)
go haggle somebody or hey, let’s go mug that one person or like, oh no, do this. It’s fine. No one, no one’s going to care. And then, you know, the whole town tries to chase us out. I’m also the kind of person that would just go into a room and just fireball the whole thing and just, you know, shoot first, ask questions later. But on my own, I’m like, no, let’s, let’s be the good guy. I don’t want to make any enemies. Let’s all just be friends. We’ll hold hands. We’ll, we’ll sing under rainbows. It’s fine. That’s what I want guys.

Lara (29:50.279)
Uh huh.

Link Keller (30:04.102)
I am the same way, Marc. Like when I’m playing by myself, I’m like, one, I want everybody to like me. I know they’re not real people. They’re just lines of code, but they have to like me. And I wanna collect all of them. It’s very much collection thing. It’s like, I have to collect all the little friends. I have to make everybody like me. Everybody’s happy. I get the happy ending, the credits roll. If I’m playing with other people, I’m like.

You know what I love more than anything? Experimentation. So I’m just gonna try throwing this exploding barrel and we’re gonna see what happens. It’s just, it’s the scientist in me. I don’t know what to tell you guys. And the people I’m playing with are like, please no, no. Oh.

Link Keller (30:43.642)
chaos.

Lara (30:44.283)
So you basically are saying that Josué should not play with you in multiplayer, because you have…

Link Keller (30:50.003)
I think we should all play together and it would be really fun, but I do want you to set your expectations where we will not be doing a serious run. We’ll be doing a silly goofy guy run.

Josué (30:58.686)
Yeah, we’re never gonna finish that game.

Lara (30:59.307)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc (31:00.76)
Oh no, 100% not. I think me and Link would just be the Shaggy and Scooby of the group who were just running around getting into hijinks and you guys just deal with it.

Link Keller (31:07.93)
Yes. ruh roh

Josué (31:14.034)
I’m the, I’m the, I don’t know what character this would be, but I’m the one who like, you turned around and he’s not there anymore. And then you hear an alarm or something because I pressed the button. I just pressed all the buttons. That’s me. Yeah.

Lara (31:23.067)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (31:23.59)
Oh, okay, so it’s two Velmas, Shaggy and Scooby.

Marc (31:26.572)
hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Josué (31:34.238)
That’s what it would be like. Yeah. All right. So we can’t think of anything else. Again, I’ve never played like a tortured character that allowed me to play him as…

Tortured.

Josué (31:51.438)
I have no idea if there’s any redemption for this character. Like, I’m not, I’m not.

Link Keller (31:54.45)
I didn’t get into the end game stuff of either of the Divinity games, so I don’t know if… This may be a Larian thing, this is a thing that they are continuing to engage with, because the premise of that game is you are a bad guy and you do bad guy stuff. You don’t have to do bad guy stuff, but it’s like, you’re a bad guy.

Again, I didn’t get to the later game stuff, so I do not know how any of that stuff resolved. I could be completely off base here. But I feel like it might be something that Larian Studios finds this idea really engaging, and that’s why they keep delving into it. What makes people do these things? What is the urge within us that causes us to harm each other?

Josué (32:26.658)
Yeah.

Link Keller (32:48.066)
the planet we live on and the systems around us. Like, how does that work? How do we systemize that into a video game where we can play with the pieces and see, like, how can we change? Where is the space for, like, shifting the path, so to speak? I think that that’s intriguing stuff.

Josué (33:10.75)
Yeah, yeah. I don’t, I don’t, yeah, I recently played Divinity Original Sin 2. Maybe I’m, I’m not… It sounds like a different game than what you’re describing, but I think you played way more of it than, than I did.

Link Keller (33:21.23)
It’s been many years since I played, and I played the first one a little bit, and then I played the second one like more, but also not too end game stuff, so yeah.

Josué (33:34.174)
Yeah. Well, one funny thing to me is that Divinity Originals 2 and Baldur’s Gate 3 are practically exactly the same game for the first. I’d say for a good chunk of it, it’s exactly the same game, the way it starts. But so, yeah, I can’t believe there’s no like other real good comparison for it.

But what about in the sense of, so let’s say Lara or Marc, you’ve got a client, right, that comes to you and is, it’s like, hey, I’ve been playing this game. Right? And…

Lara (34:20.858)
That’s like my entire caseload.

Josué (34:22.878)
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly, it’s like, hey, you’ll get there, Marc. You’ll get there. You just gotta, you’ll get there, you’ll get there. So Lara, right, somebody comes up to you and it’s like, hey, I’ve been playing this game. And I’m playing as this character called the Dark Urge. And he’s got some dark urges. He thinks some messed up stuff. And I kind of relate to that.

Marc (34:23.644)
wish that was my caseload.

Josué (34:51.05)
Right, like, where do you take that conversation from there?

Lara (34:58.047)
Um, usually when I take that conversation, because it has come up, not necessarily like this dark urge, but like people have thoughts that are just thoughts. Like, um, I don’t know, I hate my kids or what if I just like break this thing that is so important to my husband or whatever, you know? And most of the time people don’t act on those things, right?

Josué (35:26.099)
Yep.

Lara (35:26.939)
They’re just thoughts. All of us have them. So normalizing that piece and then like, explaining, well, what is it like to get to come up against these things and like be able to like act on it? A video game allows you, without real world consequences, to do things you can’t do in real life. Or you could do, but it would be really bad for you. And so, yeah.

Definitely have had conversations like this and they go very interesting places and people are usually relieved to know that like other people Have thoughts about hating their kids. Yes, most parents do That doesn’t mean you don’t love them too. Those kinds of things Yeah, so

Josué (36:15.724)
Yeah.

That’s one of the things I like about how I first heard about the character was that someone online was like, hey, I played this. I’m relating to this character because I never like maybe this guy never talked to anybody about the dark thoughts that he has. Just like your example of like, oh, other parents think these things too. Really? I had no idea. Other people play Paltress K3 and want to rip arms off people. Really?

Lara (36:34.928)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (36:39.356)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (36:46.415)
Listen, we’ve talked before on the show about villains and relating to villains and I think there’s like, I don’t know, those dark urges that people have, you know, it’s part of everybody. We just, some people focus on it more than others or some people ignore it more than others and some people talk about it more than others and yeah.

Everybody’s got those dark urges. We all have a shadow.

Josué (37:18.75)
And I know I mentioned depression quest before, but one of the things I like about depression quest is using it as a way to show people who have not experienced depression, some of the symptoms of it and some of what the experience is like. For those of you who haven’t played depression quest, it’s a narrative fiction game where you are a person who is experiencing depression.

And so you have options and sometimes the healthiest options that are available in the real world, supposedly, you can see them in the game, but you can’t actually select them. Meaning that as the character in the game, those options are not visible to you. Meaning that in real life, sometimes you don’t see the, like you don’t even think that it’s possible to do the healthy thing.

even though people around you might be able to see it, right? Like in the game, you as the player can see that option is there, but the character doesn’t actually have that as a real option. So I like the idea of using something like the dark urge to show people like what it’s like to have conflicting thoughts and thoughts that are really, really difficult to. To understand even because that’s one of the things about this character, this character is like.

Why am I thinking these things? Like, I have no idea. He has a backstory, but he doesn’t even know what it is. So there’s some reason, maybe, maybe he’s maybe he is a terrible, you know, evil character. But for some reason. Right now, he’s not. But that part of him is still left over and he is struggling with it.

Link Keller (38:50.606)
That is actually…

Josué (39:07.146)
And it’s my job to either let him, you know, feel good about it or not, or, you know, like a therapy simulator.

Link Keller (39:14.234)
I do not think that the actual game has gone into this topic with as much depth and care as we bring to it, but I do think that it is a starting point for discussing things like intrusive thoughts with OCD. This idea of like, you can’t.

Lara (39:32.581)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (39:32.935)
Yeah.

Link Keller (39:34.742)
Like it just keeps like every you’re having a conversation about something else completely and that thought keeps popping up anyways and you’re like, I can’t, I’m not going to say it. I don’t want to say it, but I keep thinking it. So I don’t, I don’t think the game obviously is not going for that kind of conversation. But I think that it is absolutely useful for us. Yeah. For us to use as a jumping off point for that kind of thing.

Lara (39:46.652)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (39:53.499)
That’s the kind of conversation we have.

Marc (39:56.268)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (39:59.722)
Yep, it sparks it. Yeah. I have not found a therapist that you can go to in the game for the darkers to go.

Link Keller (40:06.838)
Yeah, you know, honestly, there is a real lack of therapy and social work in Faerun. It’s an epidemic, honestly. They really…

Lara (40:19.759)
You might find a cleric that might be willing to listen, but sometimes they’re just too preachy about their god-

Josué (40:23.722)
Even a Baldur’s Gate? There’s nobody? Nobody?

Link Keller (40:27.226)
There’s a lot of cops, but they’re not gonna help ya.

Josué (40:29.43)
uh ouch yeah

Marc (40:30.644)
Hmm. I think they put those resources to the exact opposite.

Link Keller (40:38.582)
That’s it. This is the media reflecting reality reflecting media. I’m gonna start hanging up posters says fewer flaming fists, more therapists in Baldur’s Gate. Defund flaming fist. But really, we should. We should defund flaming fist. We should invest in the people, the communities.

Lara (40:43.327)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (40:52.423)
hahahahahahahahahaha

Josué (40:53.31)
More therapists.

Marc (40:53.526)
Hahaha

Josué (41:06.67)
So it takes 200 hours to get to Baldr’s Gate? Is that what I’m hearing?

Link Keller (41:11.858)
Um, okay, so on this, like on your character save, it tells you how long you have been playing that character as. So I got to Baldur’s Gate like 80 hours in.

Josué (41:28.002)
Good to know, good to know. All right, so I know I’m the only one who’s played as this character. Do you have any questions about it?

Link Keller (41:30.605)
I’m only…

Link Keller (41:35.702)
I did, my friend Remy, he played through, and he plays more like you guys do, where it’s like if you make a choice, you commit to it. So he has to reload a lot, but it’s because everybody dies, and so you have to reload. But if everybody doesn’t die, he just keeps going, whatever the consequences are. And so he obviously made it through his playthrough much faster than I did. And then he started over and he did the Dark Urge run.

Josué (41:44.983)
Yeah.

Josué (41:51.19)
Yeah.

Marc (41:51.872)
Hehehe

Lara (41:52.519)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (42:04.063)
Oh, what’d he say?

Link Keller (42:04.65)
And so I had him talk to me about it. But he was, he was, his main complaint was, is he had ideas about what he wanted it to be and it didn’t meet those expectations. And that is a common.

thing for him is he always like expands on the idea and he’s like think how cool it would be if they did this and they followed that thread to over here and the game’s like we can’t do all that that’s too much man and then he’s disappointed about it. But yeah so he didn’t he didn’t give me too many spoilers but he did say he was a little he loved that because the dark urge actually has a backstory that does make him unique in that when you make your own characters like.

Marc (42:32.855)
Hehehe

Lara (42:33.793)
Hehehehe

Link Keller (42:50.902)
it doesn’t have a game backstory. It’s like, you can make it up or not, that’s your call, who cares? The game does not care. But the Dark Urge actually has a past, and so that’s really interesting. But he thought that there would be a bigger payoff at the end, and it was very similar to how his first playthrough ended, and so he was a little disappointed in that. But to me, that makes sense, because this is not a separate game mode. This is just a different character within the same game.

Josué (43:17.758)
Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah.

Link Keller (43:20.866)
But yeah, how far are you? Are you in act two yet? Okay.

Josué (43:26.838)
No. Not at all.

Lara (43:30.343)
Oh, so you haven’t done the link you shared to us from IGN? You haven’t murdered every single NPC in Act 1? And stored them in one house? Yeah.

Link Keller (43:41.923)
I’m sorry.

Josué (43:42.05)
Nope, I have not. And shove them in the same house? Nope, nope, I haven’t done that. Like I said, I’ve mostly been playing the character as someone who is like really dealing with intrusive thoughts and is struggling with them. And at times does succumb to them, but other times, and is also apparently doing things unconsciously that doesn’t feel good about it. Actually, so there’s a…

Marc (43:43.82)
Hehehe

Lara (43:56.768)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (44:11.63)
There’s a character, there’s a murder that happens that you don’t do on purpose. And afterwards, when you realize that it happened, I took something of that person after they died and I wear it with me always, because to me, this version of the character is remorseful that happened, he didn’t want that to happen. So this is like in honor of the person that he did not mean to hurt.

is wearing this thing of them to remember them by. That’s my version of the dark urge

Link Keller (44:48.662)
That actually just reminded me of, I do have another example that’s, it’s not a perfect overlap, but, and also not a video game, but Dexter, his dark passenger is what it is referred to as in the book series and the TV show. And that’s his like urge to do murder. But then he, you know, his work around is he focuses it on.

Josué (45:11.551)
Yeah, yeah.

Lara (45:12.4)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (45:16.842)
enacting this violence that he feels compelled to do. He is enacting this violence against other violent people. But he also, like his thing is like he would collect, I think he was collecting blood slides. It was like a major plot point in the first season where he had to get rid of them so he wouldn’t get caught or whatever. But like that, it’s like, it’s kind of a serial killer move to be like, I’m gonna keep this object and I’m gonna carry it with me. But it is also.

Lara (45:31.483)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (45:35.338)
Yep.

Lara (45:41.413)
A trophy.

Josué (45:43.502)
I didn’t think of it that way. I didn’t think of it as a trophy.

Link Keller (45:44.926)
It is also absolutely a way of like, I am carrying proof of my shame and guilt and I cannot be relieved of it. So I must carry it on me with like a physical symbol. So I love that sort of dichotomy, mirroring moment happening there where it’s like, ooh, yum.

Marc (45:44.96)
Hmm

Lara (45:45.764)
Now.

Josué (46:04.938)
It’s true, I mean, I could have made the same exact choice and then just in my mind, because you can’t go into this much detail in the game, but in my mind, it would have been like, this is a reminder to everybody else, don’t fuck with me, or if not, I’m going to murder you, and I’m just gonna wear a piece of you around to remind the others again. But in my mind, I’m like, and every time it comes up, I’m remorseful of it. Also, I could have denied that it happened, and I didn’t. Right? So, like, people know

what happened. At least I think I know what happened. I’m not even sure. I just, I don’t know if I’ve told you, when I was in a car accident when I was like 20, no I was like 18. I was in a really bad car accident. I got hit from behind and then my car skid into the car in front of me. So there was a, it was a three car pile up. I was in the middle. And when the cops came, I was like, it was my fault. It was my fault. It was all my fault. The cops like, are you sure?

This is the story you want to go with? And I’m like, yeah, yeah. No, no, no.

Lara (47:04.199)
I’m sorry.

Link Keller (47:06.094)
that seems physically impossible and you’re like, no, it was all me, officer.

Marc (47:08.501)
Hehehe

Josué (47:10.474)
It was all me. It was all me. I did it. I couldn’t. Yeah. And I mean, obviously at the moment I remember it. I remember what happened. And I also remember being in this state of mind where I was like, no, it must’ve been my fault. Like my breaks did this. And then that’s why the guy behind me hit me. And then like, it was my fault that the guy behind me hit me and it’s, and therefore it’s my fault that I skid into the car in front of me. It took me hours afterwards for me to realize that like that made that logically made no sense.

Lara (47:28.165)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (47:37.733)
No sense.

Josué (47:41.47)
But it reminded me, like, that’s how I played the character. It was like, this thing happened. It was like, did you? Yes, yes, it was me. I think, I don’t know, I wasn’t awake when it happened. But yep, I’m sure it was me. Must have been. Damn. I assume responsibility. Also, I feel bad.

Link Keller (47:56.902)
I love that this is like in video games that makes sense because you are the actor. Like everything that happens is because of you moving through the game space. But for you it is a pattern of how you respond to things and also how you respond to things in the game. I love that.

Josué (48:09.727)
I don’t know actually.

Josué (48:20.118)
But also in the game I don’t know that it actually…

Link Keller (48:20.526)
You’re like, something terrible has happened. It must be my fault. I’m so sorry, everyone. How can I fix this? I’m so sorry. I’m gonna wear a little piece of this car for the rest of my days.

Josué (48:30.558)
Again, this thing that happened in the game.

Lara (48:34.709)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (48:35.526)
I don’t know that the character actually did the thing that I, that I, that he’s assuming responsibility for through me, but I just, it’s got, it’s gotta be. I mean, it’s got, it’s gotta be, of course. I mean, and he, yeah, yeah. Very much me.

Link Keller (48:45.783)
It’s… it’s you!

Lara (48:50.347)
I love that you’re playing it this way, Josué because if I play it, I’m just gonna double down. I’ll do it and I’ll do it again. Make it so different from me.

Josué (48:59.242)
Well, well, it depends, right? Like, I don’t know what the consequences would be if I did that. Like we were talking about before, like you can try to play bad, but then at what cost? Because I’ve already had my people.

Lara (49:06.332)
Mm-hmm.

Lara (49:09.655)
Right. But if it’s my second playthrough, I don’t care.

Josué (49:15.29)
True.

Marc (49:15.62)
I feel like for me I’d play it more like the cookie jar, but like who me? Couldn’t be, couldn’t be me. Why would it be me?

Link Keller (49:22.458)
couldn’t be, then who? It, the, the playing as not the dark urge, the game still has a similar ethical question that it is doing of like opting into more power versus not because it’s kind of suspicious. It does that same thing with the tadpole powers and

Josué (49:36.247)
system.

Josué (49:44.97)
Yeah.

Lara (49:46.567)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (49:50.871)
Yep.

Lara (49:51.363)
Every time I use that I’m like, ooh, maybe I shouldn’t have. Ah.

Link Keller (49:54.762)
I, okay. So the game starts, you get a tadpole There’s, there’s not a choice in that, but later on you get an option to unlock powers for it, which you can choose to do or not do. And then later on from there, you get another opportunity to increase those powers, which unlocks basically like a second tier of very cool, illithid powers. But it’s…

Lara (50:02.267)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (50:24.322)
very much feel like you’re like, is there going to be a consequence for this? Like if I if I opt into this at all, like, that’s the connection. It’s Bioshock. The first the first Bioshock game had a good ending and a bad ending, where you could only get the good ending if you saved every single little sister. If you if you ate even one of them, you got the bad ending. And so

very much that is informing the way that I’m playing Baldur’s Gate, even though I don’t think it’s going to be the same at all. Part of me was like, if I use even one time the worm power, I’m going to be full evil. I’m going to get the bad ending. Everybody’s going to hate me. So I really grappled with it for a while. But then I wanted the utility of the moves. I wanted to…

Lara (51:15.087)
Mm-hmm.

Link Keller (51:16.65)
And this actually loops back to Mass Effect. One of the second tier illithid powers is a black hole. And when I played Mass Effect, I played as whatever the magic user is called in that game. But black hole is one of their powers. And I would just spam that through all of Mass Effect. And so I’m like, ooh, I’m going to do it again. Black hole, black hole, black hole, black hole. I’m having a lot of fun.

I am still kind of worried that it’s, I’m going to have some big consequences for taking all the powers, but I’m committed to it at this point.

Lara (51:52.975)
Gotta commit to the bit.

Link Keller (51:54.443)
I’d commit to the bit.

Marc (51:54.76)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (51:54.783)
Well, an interesting thing is that you can choose or not to, but then your companions are also choosing whether or not they want to or not. So if they’ve chosen to do it, that’s another skill tree that you have for them. But if they don’t, they, and it’ll say like, they are not open to this. They are not willing to, although you can still persuade them. You can work on persuading them.

Link Keller (52:17.23)
It’s super funny. I’m running extremely high dex, high charisma character, and so with the bonuses that I have, if I roll a persuasion check, basically if I roll anything other than a one, I will pass it. There’s only been like two times that I’ve been like, oh okay, mathematically I can’t reach that one.

Lara (52:17.639)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (52:29.953)
Always.

Josué (52:36.61)
Yeah.

Link Keller (52:46.922)
It was very funny when I got to that part where you get the opportunity to increase your brain worm powers and your dream person encourages you to do it. And you can tell them no. And they get they’re like, I really think that you should. And I really think that you should convince your friends also. And I’m like, no, like, don’t get pushy about it. Like, I’ll think on it. And so I was like, I’m going to go to camp and I’m going to talk to everybody. I’m going to feel out the waters and every single person was like,

Absolutely not. That’s a terrible idea. I’m definitely not doing that. And then it’s like my responses either persuade them with like, come on, come on, don’t you, come on, don’t you wanna be powerful? And then just leave is the other option. And so I like walked away, but Wyll was the one person who said something kind of interesting that actually felt like responsive to me is that I went up and asked him about it. And he’s like,

I find it interesting that you’re asking me about it even though you haven’t accepted the powers. I was like, oh, he’s actually paying attention. That’s a really good point. So after I did accept the powers and I walked around to ask everybody, I was wondering if it would be any different, but it’s not really. It’s the same thing where nobody’s into it unless you can pass the persuasion check, in which case I assume they’re immediately like, yeah, okay, and slurp down a worm.

Josué (54:14.734)

[laughs]

Link Keller (54:16.45)
You don’t actually eat the worms, but you can. Ha ha ha.

Link Keller (54:25.162)
I love this game.

Josué (54:25.486)
Well, you said the thing about the endings. I know that the game supposedly has like 17,000 permutations or variabilities for the end. And I don’t know how many endings that actually is, but I get that you can have a bunch of combinations of people there and different things, but who knows what the decisions you’ve already made will do towards the end. I’m sure I won’t finish this game, so I’ll never see what happens in the dark urge anyway.

Lara (54:32.347)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (54:56.47)
Thank you for engaging in this, come on.

Lara (54:57.812)
Unless you watch it on a Let’s Play. Or Twitch, sure.

Link Keller (54:59.902)
Yeah, or watch the TikToks that come out in two weeks that are gonna be like…

Marc (55:00.588)
Mm-hmm.

Josué (55:01.035)
See you soon, what I do.

Josué (55:05.686)
But I’ll never know what my version of the guy would have been, what his ending would have been.

Lara (55:09.659)
Hmm, that’s true. It’s true. Maybe watch a few different endings and see, hmm, that’s the one he would have had.

Link Keller (55:11.302)
You just get to make it up in your minds.

Josué (55:18.862)
That’s the one. That’s the one. Yeah, could be. All right. Well, thank you for engaging with me in this conversation. I hope it was thought-provoking and, you know, it’s a little tool out there. It’s a conversation starter about some topics that I don’t think, at least I’ve never, again, I’ve never had them come up this way, maybe in books. It’s more, you know, more of a…

A theme that comes up more often, but still it’s not as interactive as this, where you have the options of actually following through. It’s up to you whether you want to follow through with some of those dark urges or not. Things are really cool experience and I’m glad that Larian put that in there. It’s pretty cool. All right. Any closing thoughts? Huh?

Link Keller (55:58.327)
Yeah.

Link Keller (56:06.326)
I do kind of suspect that originally the Dark Urge was built as that was the intended first experience. I want to say is they got to the point where they were letting some people test