Robert Wright's Nonzero (private feed for eveningglass@gmail.com)
Society & Culture:Philosophy
[A partial transcript of the conversation is below.]
Bob: Is it too much to say you were chastising part of the left in this piece for their attitude toward the Ukraine war?
Matt: I think it would be. I was not intending to do that. I mean, the goal of the piece was to address some of the arguments I see coming from the left. So, I would say responding. But ultimately, I was just trying to engage in and foster a debate about some of these issues, because I think they address some pretty important foundational progressive principles.
Bob: Did any people on the left take it as chastisement?
Matt: I think some people did. And again, the responses, both critical and supportive, I've been happy with. You know, it's never nice to be attacked online, but it happens. That's part of this. But in general, I find the response to be at least helpful to me and how people are thinking about this—you know, where they disagree. But ultimately, as I said in the piece and as I tried to make clear, I think the left is in a really interesting place right now in terms of its size and growing influence on our politics. So, I think thinking through some of these questions of war and military force—and what part of a progressive foreign policy those issues play—is important.
Bob: Okay. So the piece had to do with this $40 billion bill for support—much of it military support—for Ukraine and some opposition to that on the left. Bernie [Sanders], of course, voted for that. As did almost everyone. Which was a source of frustration to the left. A number of people, including squad members, drew some heat from the left. And by left we mean kind of the left-left. Do we basically mean the socialist left?
Matt: Whatever term one wants to use, but I think the left-left might be more accurate or works just fine.
Bob: Okay. And why don't you just kind of run us through your argument that the bill did deserve support and that Ukraine does deserve robust military support from the United States?
Matt: Yeah. Well, I think the $40 billion was one piece of it. I think that a lot of people kind of referenced that because that was just kind of contemporary with when the piece came out. But in general, I think—just as I said in the piece—supporting Ukraine's, you know, defense of its own country in response to this invasion, especially in a way that is not involving US troops and that is being careful about escalation, I think makes sense. I think there are certainly questions we should be—and that a lot of people have been—asking. I've been asking them myself about how this ultimately ends. There's things we need to think about with monitoring end-use for these weapons that we’re sending to the Ukrainians. There’s a whole set of other questions—which I'm sure we'll get into over the course of our conversation—but you know, for the time being, I think continuing to support Ukraine's defense is the right thing to do.
Bob: Okay. And what do you think—well, first of all, why don't you spell that out? There are various ways one could justify it. There are various principles you could say are at stake that we need to defend, for example. There are different ways of framing it. What's your way of framing it?
Matt: Well, first, I think just the general principle that countries shouldn't invade other countries is pretty basic. I think that's one. It's certainly not one that the United States has always followed, and, again, I'll just grant at the very outset there's a whole set of hypocrisies at play here, which I've mentioned in previous pieces and will continue to mention. Because I think they are really important and I think [they] seriously undermine America's ability to create that kind of actually genuine rules-based order that I think we, as progressives, want.
I think supporting Ukrainians’ right to defend their country matters. I think, as a progressive, this idea of solidarity matters a lot to me. So, thinking through what I hear from Ukrainians—both publicly and privately—about what they want for their country matters. And that's obviously something that should apply beyond just Ukraine. I think that's something that informs my approach to foreign policy generally. But, in this case, supporting Ukrainians with military equipment to respond—to defend themselves against Russia's invasion—is right.
Bob: Okay. And what is your conception of the argument on the left-left that you're confronting? And, by the way—well, you can address this later—but I'm wondering if the feedback to the piece altered your conception of what the argument is. But, in the piece, how do you depict the argument?
Matt: Well, I think, you know, I point to two really prominent people who I respect a lot: Lula [the left-wing former president of Brazil] and Noam Chomsky from the US. And I think they make two of what I think are the biggest arguments. One is—and I think you've made a variation on this argument too—that more should have been done ahead of the invasion to put NATO withdrawal on the table more explicitly. That there wasn't enough diplomacy or that there wasn't enough of an aggressive or an energetic enough diplomatic effort by the United States to make a set of guarantees that would have averted the invasion. And the second is that there is not enough diplomacy being done—or it's not energetic or aggressive enough—right now. The United States or President Biden or his administration is simply not engaged heavily enough in finding a diplomatic opening or off-ramp—or whatever term one wants to use—to end this war sooner rather than later.
Bob: Yeah. I mean, first of all, I should—as long as you brought me in—I should be clear: I don't oppose all military aid to Ukraine. But I am kind of torn about the whole issue, partly for reasons you mentioned. And I think I do identify with some of the arguments on the left-left maybe more than you do. We'll see. But I think I could, you know—
Matt: Yeah, and I apologize if I—I didn't mean to misrepresent. I just think—
Bob: No, you didn't say anything that's untrue. For sure. I do think we didn't do enough to try to negotiate our way out of a war in advance. But more than that, I think that we've mismanaged the relationship with Russia over the past quarter century—big time…
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