EP085 - FutureCommerce Joint Podcast Part 2

EP085 - FutureCommerce Joint Podcast Part 2

Brian Lange (@brianjlangeand) Phillip Jackson (@philwinkle) are the hosts of futurecommerce podcast. 

In this first of it's kind, Co-Podcast Jason & Scot team up with Phil & Brian to record a two-part podcast.  Part 1 can be heard on futurecommerce.  This is part 2.

Don't forget to like our facebook page, and if you enjoyed this episode please write us a review on itunes.

Episode 85 of the Jason & Scot show was recorded on Thursday May 11, 2017.

http://jasonandscot.com

Join your hosts Jason "Retailgeek" Goldberg, SVP Commerce & Content at Razorfish, and Scot Wingo, Founder and Executive Chairman of Channel Advisor as they discuss the latest news and trends in the world of e-commerce and digital shopper marketing.

New beta feature - Amazon Automated Transcription of the show:

Transcript

Jason:
[0:25] Welcome to the Jason and Scott show this is episode 85 being recorded on Thursday May 11th 2017.  I'm your host Jason retailgeek Goldberg and as usual I'm here with your Co Scot Wingo.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[0:38] Hey Jason are welcome Jason Scott show listeners tonight we're doing something really Innovative in the world of podcasting I don't know if this phrases ever been used or not but if it has it,
its trademark Jason Scott it's a cross podcast that's right or maybe we'll go at the Omni podcast,
pull in the flavor of e-commerce this is part 2 of a cross podcast episode,
and we are Co casting with Brian and Philip over at futurecommerce so before we jump in you need to go to your favorite podcast app right now and add futurecommerce And subscribe and then go listen to the first part over there,
in the come back over here or if you're a fan of Back to the Future you can listen to this one first,
I did feel like you're doing time travel back into the past listened episode 1 real flexible here at the Jason Scott show so which ever one of those floats your boat we will courage to go do that,
will pause for a second while you figure it out okay welcome back Jason let's bring Brian and Philip in as we continue,
they're episode guys do you name your episodes what what was our episode going to be over on your side.
3433 I don't know somewhere in there.
436 that's the that's the name you have to get a team meeting with your audio Engineers over there to figure out,
how to how to do it to get a consensus built and then this is our episode 84 so welcome to the show guys.
Thank you thanks happy to be on this is quite an honor actually.

Jason:
[2:13] We we are happy to have you let's let our audience get to know you just a little bit so maybe Brian you want to start by giving us your background.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[2:23] Usher Yeah so I'm born and raised in the Seattle area and I got into a little start-up out here that did,
basically Payment Processing both across physical and digital,
and so they actually processed like checks and so they also they also had it online payments to all and that sort of wet my appetite,
4 for Hardline Commerce in Hartford for Commerce I should say in general and and then made my way over to digital agency called classy llama,
and they're there a specifically Magento agency really long time ago until agency and got to help build up that agency and I've been in a couple different agencies right now I'm at an agency called,
something digital with Philip we're primarily a Magento Focus agency but when we're dead across the board,
and in parking with another platform as well and.

[3:28] We we are I've really enjoyed getting to know everything you know kind of,
the entire education of what it means to be in Commerce through this process.
Certainly there's a lot that I still don't know but really excited to to be talking about digital Commerce and I've been able to work with some really cool Brands to bring their digital Commerce experiences to to life.
And I.
Instagram started futurecommerce with Philip we were working at can basically competitors at the time in.
Kind of got to know each other through different conferences we live in the same world and.
There was this this one one late night we had we restarted really really kind of getting down deeper into the.
Into the details and and and,
I think was actually had irce in Chicago 3 years ago or something like that and we started a friendship and in really a series of conversations that,
led to and us being like man these aren't these are really interesting topics for talking about we should record this and so.
That's how I up in podcasting Phillips kind of got a little bit earlier story of getting into podcasting so let him get into that but yeah that's me.

[4:57] Your thoughts about your career and how you got into to be the podcast Ninja,
yeah thanks I so I actually I took a left turn at Albuquerque if you will I got.
I dropped out of Theological Seminary after two years and I joined a band.
And I did that for 7 years and you know we were like touring around it was super cool and you know you like recording and doing all these really cool really neat things and,
but it's interesting you know like the one thing that was sort of a Mainstay that held over from my high-school days was that you know it's really good with computers and.
In 03 so it's more of a long series of events you know you kind of look back on your life in your like one of these things is making me money in one's not and,
and so why don't we stop the one that doesn't make me any money in focus on the thing that does and found a lot of good fortune there and Ben been truly fortunate to,
to have the you know nearly at 18-year career now in in eCommerce digital Commerce and so you know it's great kind of growing up in the industry from the late 90s,
where people were in on the dock, just figure out how we were even supposed to do this stuff online and then sort of watching things mature and best,
actresses emerge and I yeah so kind of growing up and and working directly for a bunch of merchants and then you know doing a lot of.

[6:29] Direct Consulting and then you know finally finding my way into.
You know actually being a subject matter expert an e-commerce so then and now and heading up the digital Commerce team at something digital which is.
The best named digital agency ever and.

Jason:
[6:51] Although I do also like classy llama.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[6:53] Classy llama yes.
Something to drill actually it contains its own origin story right in its name which is skids funny but you know just kind of getting to know,
Brian and the people in our industry and and you know having some success in podcasting you know I have another.
Podcast called Mage talk which is a magenta Focus podcast that.
Has about 70,000 listeners a month of this point and you know that's really taken us to a new place worldwide kind of talking about Magento talking about you know the future of that platform.
I really also wanting to tell other stories and so you know in the last year-and-a-half we launched two other,
properties futurecommerce to really talk about retail and general and talk about the the transformation that retail is undergoing right now and the challenges to you know not everything is so exciting in the future you know there's some there's probably some dark,
days ahead and there's there's definitely dark side and we touched on that someone the show so the show's been not quite a year yet and 35 or 34 episodes we're not really sure at this point we've lost count but you know we're we're trying to really,
you know do I think what a lot of people struggle with witches remain consistent.
We want to have consistent content and I think that's something you guys can appreciate so yeah so futurecommerce we also launched another podcast property this year.
I called Merchants to Merchants which is stories Merchants telling their own stories and it's for merchants.

[8:26] I specifically in stories of merchants talking about their own experience you know among themselves so we'll get a panel if you know 3 or 4.
Retailers together and ask them to improv them to talk about you know what's easy and what's hard.
And you wouldn't believe that the kind of feedback that comes out of that and it's real honest content where it's not just someone like me who thinks they know everything.
Just kind of telling you what to do which is usually what you get in these sort of mediums right you get a couple white guys that just pontificate on the podcast and that's not an uncommon thing in our space but to get people from diverse backgrounds in to get people that are,
that have very different two stories to you and have different aspirations and different struggles and get them to actually tell their story it's really thick.
Stories there so it's kind of cool I think we run this really interesting journey and for me it's it's really about storytelling and it's really about.

[9:28] You know shared experience so but yeah delighted to be here I'm a big fan of guy show so pardon me being a little Starstruck.
Thanks thanks it is awesome you're building a whole network we can Jason I struggle just to kind of get this puppy out once a week so I'm I'm amazed at folks that can to do that,
the key is to just neglect everything in your life and your job.
And then you can really be successful to let us know how that works out for you.

[10:03] Okay well listeners if you're listening to this two-parter in the chronological sequence when we last left you in this cross podcast episode we just finished talking about some future Trends and we thought we'd bring it back to the Here and Now,
now if you're listening to it out of sequence if you're one of those original trilogy people,
let me just say Darth Vader and Luke are not related at all there's nothing to see here these are not the droids you're looking for Jason you on that kick it out with us some some news.

Jason:
[10:31] I do but before we jump in the news I do want to take advantage of the fact that we have some Magento gurus in the house so for listeners on this podcast.
I have been slightly negative on Magento and I'm I'm prepared to be schooled but I want at least get my POV out there and and you guys can help me see the light we actually had Mark Lavelle and Peter Sheldon on episode 50,
and.

[11:03] Magento is is arguably the most important platform in the eCommerce Echo System I think there's probably more sites on that platform than anything else in my company we we do play a lot of that platform in Asia.
We don't personally do as much here in North America book what has been a concern for me is you know.

[11:26] Did that for a long time there's been this version 1 of magenta that had all these blood features that had had all these users.
And you don't have this rich rich community of developers and plugins and in all the all these sorts of things.

[11:41] And what you tended to run into is.

[11:45] You know these these kind of whether they're true or not like hey yeah and magenta was great for the long tail it doesn't really scale for the Enterprise clients and in full disclosure.

[11:56] Like Magento did struggle to.

[11:59] To sort of list a bunch of Enterprise clients like they would often list Enterprise clients and you'd go talk to those clients and they'd be like yeah we're using it for a small project in the corner it's not our.

[12:09] Armed army in platform and so you know that was kind of my first red flag at magenta was on magenta one while it was super popular.

[12:16] It didn't seem to catch the top of the echo system and then after years of waiting and promising and changing hands a couple times and I think they probably got screwed by by being acquired by eBay for a few years there they finally launched version 2.

[12:31] And what's scary to me and what what what you know sort of came to light in this conversation with Mark and episode 50 is.

[12:39] There are not a lot of sites that have migrated from version 1 to version 2.

[12:44] And so you know arguably there's there's some improvements and and fixes inversion to butt.

[12:50] No you can't you can no longer say Magento is the most popular platform in the world because there's you know a relatively small user base on the current version of Magento,
so it seems like the majority of those users got left behind and frankly some of the most beloved features like the the rich ecosystem of third party plugins.

[13:09] You know is is.

[13:10] Dramatically different in a magenta to today so so my kind of talking point to people has been magenta to probably has a lot less momentum that then magenta one did and it's a day.
And I'm unprepared for you to tell me why I'm completely off base.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[13:26] So you've caught up on 80 plus episodes of Fire,
inventory all that you had for the magenta platform and I actually applied that you were able to do that in two minutes that's kind of impressive skill.
You know I'll I'll start out here because I don't believe that Brian can be succinct I'll say.
If it's fair,
if if Mark and Peter who are the CEO and I think the VP of strategy at Magento respectively if they can't change your mind on,
and qual your fears on Magento then I don't know that I'm going to do any good but I will say this listen I can only speak from my own personal experience.
As somebody who is admittedly a fan boy and his hung a good portion of my there the latter part of this.
In a career that I have the last 8 years I'm Magento and I'm pretty well decorating the magenta space.

Jason:
[14:30] You have actual decorations by the way don't you are you like a black belt.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[14:33] Yeah I might like,
I'm a two-time magenta Master which is a a sort of a notable Community Spotlight award that they give out so I'm one of like 7 people that have,
received it twice and I'm a four-time Magento certified developer and I've spent a lot of time in the trenches doing a lot of magenta work and specifically Yuna rescue for.
Rescue work for large builds which is you know something that no other platform can tell is the number of rescues that happened what I would like to say is that.

[15:04] I think with the with the I don't know with the ubiquity of the platform,
Imogen - once were the success of the platform magenta one I think,
any shift of years that represented a rer connector that that sort of leaves no quitiquit leaves people behind,
I is going to be a painful one I don't think there's any way,
just to get around that I think we've seen that in major in in any major software Rev,
you know Windows 10 most notably recently has had some major I had some major hiccups you know moving people across from platforms and sort of forcibly doing it at the end of the day and I think,
I think it's a it's not an easy thing in software. I think what's what's really complicated is e-commerce and digital Commerce in and of itself,
is a difficult problem space to solve and everybody wants.
You know everybody wants open architecture easy to build on an open ecosystem so some of the sort of.

[16:10] Little points that you mention are are things that I think are are being currently rectified I think the last check.
You know 70% of the people are 70% of all technology Partners had Magento 2,
compatible Integrations at the first of this year and it's growing,
you know we we do a tremendous amount of magenta work it's not all that we do we are we are also Shopify plus Partners but our deal pipeline is full.
We're we're seeing a tremendous demand for Magento so we going to speak for ourselves seeing a tremendous demand for magenta to and specifically magenta one clients looking to come over to Magento 2 now I do think that some of that could be under duress.

[16:58] So I wanted this count that but I do think that magenta has a lot of promise and if.
If you want to continue to sort of get the benefit of what a platform like Magento has to offer which is a freely available piece of software that is enterprise-grade.
Were you can you know download it and start your business and then grow into an Enterprise platform it's sort of.
Ready and the promise of Magento is that it grows with you right you have something it's available freely at the low tier and you can grow up into you know,
billion dollar business is running on Magento but I think,
there are challenges along the way and we have to be very honest about them and we can't glaze over them I think the the internet retailer 300 the B2B 300 which is a new segment for for the IRA Ting Magento owns the the btb 300,
I don't know that they're going to stay there forever and Magento sort of.
Found their way into it kind of like mr. Bean finds his way into good situations because because because Magento isn't a B2B platform it's not capable of doing B2B out of the box,
people adapt Magento,
to do it and I think that's what you're saying is that magenta is extremely adaptable and so the success of Magento has nothing to do with Magento I mean I think anybody will tell you that I think Mark Lavelle would tell you that the success of Magento is the community.
Is excessive Magento is the,
the sort of dedication of a lot of hard-working and brilliant people in the International Community especially,
that contribute to this platform to make it a better thing and you're not going to get that on hybris and you're not going to get that on demandware.

[18:34] Now I mean you might get scalability and speed that's another conversation but you're you're not going to you know you're also not going to get sort of that promise of what.

[18:44] Magento offers which is a you know this this Rich ecosystem of makers but I anyway now also not been to sync,
yeah I was going to bring that up Philip just to add on a little bit to what you're saying I think this is Ben actually,
how you mentioned pain but also opportunity because while the gento had a very broad ecosystem that you can system wasn't very difficult to navigate,
before and you know sort of modernizing the platform has now allowed Magento 2 in in bringing a new Marketplace into in the play has allowed Magento 2,
I do a much better job of curating their ecosystem,
which is been very good for it and yeah while it's taking a little bit of time for some of these module developers to 2 rerelease,
they're extensions for the platform.
I think the great thing is which it is rejected a whole bunch of them in for good reason sure and ends you know I think now we're getting you know I'm not going to say it's either the cream-of-the-crop but we're getting.
We're getting a much better picture of what actually works and doesn't work in so when it when whenever you tell her comes into the Magento world it's it's not quite as scary,
as it used to be it's not quite as wild west does it used to be it's a lot easier to to to be successful,
in the new paradigm and I think that's what scares you mentioned customers.

[20:20] I think that's what scared some of them away before cuz it just felt it felt it felt down market and you know it felt like there was a lot of weird stuff available to you and yang.
And so now now magenta is really tailoring itself to be Enterprise,
Enterprise reading and I know what they released their Commerce platform they're about to order their Cloud platform they're about to release a beating e-commerce Cloud this this summer the functionality this container that platform is is,
make the total cost.
Of of implementing Magento for me to be quite a bit lower and I don't think that anyone else is going to be able to touch that total cost of ownership from the BV perspective here coming out.
And soap,
there's a lot of things to really like about where Magento is headed was a lot of positive Memon in there also,
necessarily add a ton of features in Magento one on a regular basis and what we're seeing with Vicenta to is there were insane amount of.

[21:30] Product announcements that just happened here in Imagine,
are they added social that you know how speed to be you know they they had it as a CMS which magenta one was definitely lacking adjust a ton of tools a ton of innovation a ton of movement that's happening in,
directions to reinvigorated and you know I think.
Part of the other the other gripe with Magento at least you know at least one of those sort of inside baseball grapes for people like me is that yeah magenta was sort of slow and and and you know.
Adopting were worth keeping up with the times I think it started to show its age after some time and and they they say it in a nice way now it's like we have the youngest platform of anybody.
Which I think you know rightly so like it still has the name Magento on it and I would say you know it is Magento ask but it is a different platform.
It is not a simple upgrade to get from 1 to 2 I think that's a problem.
So yeah I think that there's I think there are there's still a lot of challenges ahead I think we're we're going to see.
We're going to see continued uptake through 2017 I'm interested to see what happens through the end of the year but you know Magento did just actually Place into the the leader.
A quadrant for me the new Gartner magic.
Quadrant survey so you know they are showing some promise there but a good portion of their ability to compete in the areas that matter is because the the platform is extendable.

[23:09] And I and N because there's Community enablement for those features magenta doesn't kill an improved and personalization.
In a magenta doesn't have native B2B right now it's coming but it's not there.
And so there are other platforms that I think are nice players that are better suited for different types of business I think you know but from a broad Market perspective Magento is.
Now I'm jective Lee owning it right now you know I think they have to continue to push hard to stay ahead.
They're not going to let you know they won somehow to this point but they're going to have to work harder to to keep that lead,
what do you think Scott and Jason does you guys seem to be real quiet over there.
I'm not as negative on Magento as Jason is but one thing I've noticed over kind of like the last five years is 5 years ago.
Every SMB I talk to you it was like I'm going Magento and then there were some I think you called and rescue Sanuk that was good I have some people calling refugees so I don't know the right one,
you know what would happen is these SMB is they got into these projects they didn't realize all right I got to go to developer designer and a host and that's like a.
That's pretty serious project for a 20-person company to handle that I can finally eCommerce business they can,
you can't just stop shipping product in the middle of all that either so a lot of them have abandoned it and gone to the either the Bigcommerce for the Shopify the SAS platforms at that SMB level.

[24:43] Nice I like magenta really miss an opportunity there they had that go thing but I think it was just so down size that it was kind of useless and I have to,
admit I haven't kept up with all the announcements but it sounds like you just talk about a cloud,
tussle bit more about that do you think they're kind of that parody with the Shopify Zappa Converses and I realize you guys talk about all the platforms so,
Brian I wouldn't put this in the same category it's not it's not what I would consider as you know software-as-a-service this is mine I know they're kind of migrate away from the terminology but it's more like platform-as-a-service so you actually still have,
it's more like a stack of of hosting and monitoring tools with support,
and you still have all the flexibility that you did with magenta before it's not like you don't have access to source code into the code and and the ability to make changes soap.
I wouldn't put it in the same category as big Commerce or Shopify I would still I would actually.
In the say that that their Crock Pot Farm is more competitive with like a demandware or or I should say Salesforce Commerce cloud or hybris then then with Shopify is not they're not they're not very similar at all.

[26:00] Do you think they need to do that.

[26:03] No I don't think they do I mean I think it would be a shift in direction for them right now honestly the the Magento brand I think it's built on you know sort of,
I don't know there's there's some complexity to Magento just inherently and and so you're never going to get the.
The fuggin playability that you would get from someone that you know has from other players that are.
You know specifically keeping you away from the internals and focusing you only on you know a a Walled Garden of of really good intuitive user experience you know for the merchant features to publish producten,
spell magenta also has a different strategy right so it's it's better probably fit for a retailer that sees there.
Their digital Commerce platform as one part of a larger piece of a young as part of their Ani channel strategy they see it as a property right this is an asset or this is an acid on their books as much as any,
in a brick-and-mortar store with with the frontage would would be considered a.
An asset and you know if you own that asset if it's a if it's an actual you know if it's ones and zeros that you've developed and you put.
Time in money into developing on and you own the platform and you on the hosting and noon you own all this relationship sandwich ento could go away tomorrow.

[27:30] And and that thinking can continue to still run well then great like that's it that's a real asset and accountants sure kind of like that I supposed and that's one way to think about it,
you know I think there's a devaluation that's happening right now in in digital Commerce where we're just looking it's sort of like commoditized.
Web property,
enablement and so we're kind of buying into the shop of eyes of the world and we do Shopify some demeaning it by any means but you know you buy into these sort of all in ones where they they on the hosting they own the code,
they give you a very select few areas where you can make sort of customizations and also by the way they own payments to.
And and and while that gives for some really great you know they rolled Apple pay out to 250,000 Merchants like overnight that's cool,
but if Shopify goes away or Shopify changes something on you your your kind of going along for that ride it's not an asset that you own outright and you have no say in it.
And I think for some it's it's an ideology I think as a business that you just have to buy into that you're okay with that.
What we're saying on the rescue side of things not to continue to beat this but but what we're seeing is that.

[28:49] You know it's it's what I like into like you know once you have your first like.

[28:55] Can you come out of a break-up right you you have this great relationship with you know a significant other and then maybe you get hurt in that relationship and you break up and you realize you kind of look back and you do a post-mortem you're like there's a lot of things that I expected that were just unreasonable expectations.
Right this isn't her fault it's probably my fault too like it's both of our faults.
But it's not entirely just her right it's also meeting and I think what we're seeing is that there's a class of a merchant,
who is becoming more who's coming to the understanding that.
Maybe the problems with Magento also also have to do with their expectations of what digital Commerce should be and their expectations of what,
you know they're there unreasonable expectations of how something should work and behave and and and so does temperate those those are becoming tempered does expectations becoming tempered and there now better,
yeah they're going to go into the next relationship with with a little bit more open mind and and maybe a little more grace for when they you know get through the hard stuff I don't know it's a bad analogy but I think you understand,
I'll try to go.

Jason:
[30:01] Know for sure I'd get a and I should say you like my general POV is all of these platforms tank right like I.

[30:12] This is way harder than it should be and compared frankly to other platforms and other parts of the business like it's shocking how much work we have to do and how much risk and how many rescues there are because you know of all those issues and and I would certainly agree,
that those issues are on client side and the platform side and the integrator side.
I think I think my favorite client ever is a big retailer CEO he calls me and he's like hey you know we've hired three svp's of e-commerce here none of them did a good job we fired them all and they all went on to be wildly successful at their next companies.

[30:50] And he's like it's come to my attention that it might be us not them.

[30:55] Sci-fi like that that that level of self-realization is rare but it was enjoyable.
I feel like you guys made some great points like you have underscored what I think is still one of the the marketing challenges of the new Magento and that's like.

[31:12] They used to be good at certain things the new platform is much better at other things but.
Nobody seems to want to really like say hey.
This is our new Focus this is what we're really good at and you know they want to talk about how good they were at the old magenta one and at the same time talk about why that you know.
Hey that was the Wild West in the plugins were super dangerous now now I'm enchanted to in the plugins are much better vetted but we don't have as many.
So I wouldn't I chuckle the great irony here is that that Peter Shelton used to do the Forrester wave.
Son and his whole job was to say hey here all the platforms and here's the here's the use cases that each platform fits in the best right here's the box that you put a shoes Platforms in and it.
It's hard for purchasers because Magento is fighting so much to get put in a box like are you know are they in our right is their goal to being on from solution that just competes with with SI p and IBM is it to be,
a cloud offering like like Salesforce is it to be a long tail like.
Shopify like like they're absolutely is a strong place in the Echo System for them I have no doubt about that it's it's confusing because they won't help buyers by saying.
This is where we fit in and you underscored like one of the.

[32:33] That the great ones there they're really prevalent on the B2B top 300 West even though they don't have native B2B features.

[32:42] They're not prevalent on the IR 300 the top 300 retailers you know which is like the native feature said that they they more support and so it just it's it's hard to figure out exactly what they want to be when they grow up right now is kind of my.
Might my gripe.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[32:58] Sure yeah yeah I do think that they sort of on the top 1000 to do so I do think I agree with you totally I think.
There's going to be a challenge with Magento philosophically going forward it's interesting to watch of how much of their.
How much of their Community are they going to start to usurp by putting by replacing their communities enable met with core features so that they can play in the larger spaces,
because nobody you know what you know I've seen deals actively lost.
Because Magento didn't have personalization out-of-the-box and you had to go to certona like that lost a deal you know and that's.
That's a silly thing to me to get upset over but at that level people don't want it have multiple.
You know relationships with multiple vendors they want one relationship with one vendor that does everything sort of poorly but they do everything,
but that's just my take to everything kind of suck,
but I don't think I want to mention about Magento and this is this is not something that's been talked about enough and it is I think it's really important point which into I think over a year ago now actually released.
And all of this and what are the things that I have.

Jason:
[34:21] First got that to order management system.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[34:23] Yes.
Yeah nothing to call um I'm calm that's the that's the nickname and one thing I love about him, is that.
You're right now in the order management World in and it was talk about futurecommerce for a minute order management is is is probably yeah,
what are the most important plays going forward,
I think if you're going to if it going to look at what you know what technology holds the glass going forward order management is probably that technology,
the thing that I love about him, is that for again total cost of ownership perspective.
You know that the competition is is IBM and Manhattan.

[35:15] And those are very expensive Hot forms right now that I take a lot to implementing and yes they are very powerful they're great platforms.
But emcon is also really powerful and can be implemented for about a tenth of the cost.

[35:32] And so that is that.
All on its own I think it's going to start to shape how Magento enters the market,
it's going to take some time still going to be a year or two I think before it really starts to take hold but this is this is something where it's it's not sexy.
But it is the future it's the least sexy thing actually ever my my my take is is right you're right on,
I've been calling the death of the shopping cart for the last two years and I know I'm late to the game because a lot of really smart people have called that before but you know that the paradigm,
that we're currently operating underneath.
Is still a real world Paradigm being modeled in the digital space the idea that we go to a branded location to put.

[36:21] You know items in a basket and then push it to a check out and then give some payment information this is a dead.
Paradigm and it's it's one that's being challenged in that metaphor is being challenged on every single device that we interact with it's not a desktop computer today and so once,
we get more towards the one click sand and ambient Commerce with anticipated anticipated purchase,
behaviors and we sort of let more of our life go on autopilot and more things are on demand one click.
We don't need shopping carts anymore and Magento has no place anymore in fact most of us won't be interacting with Commerce in the same way 10 years from now that we are today.
And so what does a company like magenta do to future-proof itself it has to get into a different to a different every different area from area.

[37:12] I think we're management is the Crux of that and there are too many businesses today and don't realize it but they're building order management into Magento.
Yeah an order management is its own specific Challenge and nice and it says it is a very nice software market right now.

[37:30] And one that I think does need to struction.
But it's not one that's going to get a lot of people to temperature tension and I think magenta will be there to capture a lot of that business for the people that are trying to do the Alexa purchases that are also trying to do buy online pickup in-store they're also trying to do,
purchase is in,
yeah God forbid a rnvr purchases like whatever the heck that looks like so you know yeah it's an interesting thing that as business moves,
news away from Brandon portals,
Starman and branded direct consumer portals on the internet they were trying to drive people to I think instead of shopping being a destination shopping is now at our destination wherever we are and and that is the transformation,
so I think.
You're right Brian order Management's the Crux of that and so you know Magento digital Commerce as a shopping cart is probably a dead or dying platform in the next 10 years anyway,
how long for all the other ones along with everything else.

Jason:
[38:30] Except Blue Martini Blue Martini is going to survive.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[38:33] The fabric.

Jason:
[38:37] So I totally get it and I do agree LMS is as.

[38:42] Definitely an opportunity to differentiate and most of the OMS Solutions out there right now or sort of design for how people fulfilled orders five years ago not orders are.

[38:52] Yo what we need today much as what we're likely to need in the next couple days couple years so that's going to be an interesting space totally disagree that OMS isn't sexy I would say cpq is way less sexy than illness.

[39:05] But I do want to change topics a good stuff on the platforms we did mention a couple times during the platform conversation the internet retailer B2B 300 list and.
The the the beat of C 500 or 1000 list in that reminded me of my pet peeve of the week.

[39:24] So those lips are super valuable to our industry there a list of the.

[39:28] The top companies in different sectors and how much revenue they do and what platforms they use in all these sorts of things so so when you're talking inside baseball you want to have that list so you know how many of the.

[39:40] Top 500 B2B companies are using Magento for example so they just released this year's list.

[39:48] For the the IR 500 which is the original list of retailers and they become the most annoying salesman in the planet like I get more spam.

[39:58] For this Westin anything.

[40:00] And I need that list so I click on all that spam and I go to the site to buy the list and it's impossible to buy they have like so many different plans.

[40:08] That you can't figure out like which is the plan you actually need and when you click on the price for any of those plans it takes you to a contact us form where.

[40:18] You know someone someone has to have to communicate with the salesperson that goes I don't know how much can you afford.

[40:25] I hate that whole experience I fought my way through all of it I got the list which is way more expensive this year than it's ever been before and.
Wouldn't you know it they've totally nerfed it like in the past they they gave you their estimate of actual revenue for every company on the list and now unless you pay literally tens of thousands of dollars for the list you get these like.
Really course estimates like they do over a billion dollars or they do.

[40:53] 500 million to a billion or they do 250 million to 500 million so I don't have any action here but I'm just saying I Feel Like These Guys Brewing that product like that it was the Super Value.

[41:06] For that the industry in the fact that they make it so hard to buy and then they're their diminishing.

[41:12] The the level of a product you get just seems like he's actually the wrong wrong Trend these days.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[41:19] I'm just to get back at him you should just go ahead and torrent that that report it doesn't.

[41:26] Santa really show him.
That's the thing is that I know both of you sort of have a vested interest there again in those that comes that particular company my my my guess we'll be like can't anybody just sort of crazies lists and create their own,
could there be a competing product at some point is closed.

Jason:
[41:51] If only there was like some industry Trade Organization that Evan was members of and they they somehow like either gave it all that day.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[41:57] Philip II nice.

Jason:
[42:00] We should find some board members are.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[42:05] Will Jason it wouldn't be a Jason Scott show without some Amazon news so it's been a bit of pretty busy week on the Amazon front and futurecommerce guys would love to hear your your hot take on,
the latest entry to the echo family the Echo Show what do you guys think about it.

[42:24] I mean it's it's it's been a huge complaint that there's been no.
Screen for the Echo and so this isn't a very natural step in the progression of no voice first interactions.
And so I mean I applied at Amazon for releasing it obviously.
I'm I'm excited it's finally here I'm really excited to see how people start applying it I think there's a lot of application maybe even in a business level for the Echo Show,
I mean I think it's it's it's great I can't wait to start using it.
Next step for the product and probably an obvious next step for the product I'm more excited about the features not necessarily that the show.
Enables but the butt that the all of the echo devices have received which is calling and messaging.
I'll let you seem like a natural progression for the product so you don't need the show to do it it's landed on most Echo devices today already but you can you know call somebody and have a voice conversation with them,
if they happen to have a an echo in there in your customer in your inventory in your contact list or you can leave them a voicemail or are you can just,
play old text messages back and forth which I think is the natural progression and I do think that there's a place for it but.

[43:57] You know I was wrong about the original Echo so no longer allowed to be you no crusty about anything that Amazon does.
Yeah definitely big time and now I have like 4 of them in the house so it's you know.

Jason:
[44:15] And your podcast is available on it which I'm totally Joseph.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[44:18] To be the first time.

[44:23] Actually I will I so I am way more excited about the echo look which is the camera device which I'm sure you guys were recovered but we.
You know we we covered it on episode 33 of Commerce we we like you know in general I think we're both high on the product I like the idea of.
Personalized recommendations that are for my body type where as you know I just have you know what's just say it I have a ghetto booty I have this I have a weird body shape.
And it's hard.
For me I have I have very wild range of sizes that fit across many Brands and I think if if Amazon can solve that for me I'm I'm definitely looking video I don't know if I need the fashion advice so much.
From a body data and a even mention Magento in the brain Amazon is a branded manufacturer actually making their own clothes and they can sell me clothes that fit I'm I'm kind of all in on that I like that idea.
Google what's a what's a ghetto booty.

[45:29] A light sides of the very large Terrier.

Jason:
[45:38] I have a booty design for podcast.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[45:41] This is kind of a good Segway into the overall Amazon topic,
no you guys talked to a lot of retailers you know it's usually one of the first things that Jason I get what you guys,
you know when people ask you should we worry about Amazon how do we compete with them what's your general kind of framework you you work from do you think they're going to dominate the future or their kind of going to be 25%.
I feel like you you just set the tee up for me so I'll set it up and Brian you knock it down I don't think that Amazon is your competition I don't.
You may think Amazon is your competition and you may hear every podcast and every you know I think piece on medium that says Amazon is your competition but Amazon's out your competition it's,
your customers heightened expectations of you as determined by their great interactions with Amazon that is your new competition and so Amazon setting the new Norm,
but that doesn't mean that we can't compete with Amazon if it means that we have to give the customers a reason to come.
And I think Amazon has to be part of your strategy I think they are owning everything.
No I'm quite literally I mean I think I just got a recommendation for someone to come wash my windows from Amazon's Professional Services like thing which like they're doing Angie's List now I didn't even know that,
it's crazy they're doing everything but I do think that Amazon needs to be part of your strategy and I think.
You know there are any able to platforms field do that side because one part of the pie.

[47:14] And I'm setting it up so Brian you knock it down AKA Channel advisor.

[47:24] I think you know if you're if you're.
Certain retailers Amazon definitely competes with you.

[47:38] If if you're if you are a brand who makes shoes shirt Amazon isn't competing with you buying your own shoes from.
No I completely goes out until we start to get to the basics conversation,
but I guess that's not any different than you know selling at at Costco that has their Kirkland brand right or anyone else does generic Branch button rings to two larger retailers,
in general but obviously I think you know we're seeing the effects of that right now it's not just Amazon but.
You know we talked about Macy's briefly on part one of very briefly but you know I think they're definitely feeling the effects of competition with Amazon and so you know.
Yes I think if you're talking so Philip if you're talking about.
Sort of that that small the medium and even large sided large medium Brands and retailers out there that's.
Yep you're right they're not really competing but we start to talk,
you know a Tattler trying to press level I think there is some some competition and I think that's where you going to the question is is it is it going to be all Amazon in the future,
now if Mark Laura has anything to do with it I would say probably not definitely some.
Big opportunity Unison and I just love his mindset and strategy around what he's dealing right now with Walmart I think he's changing actually he's actually changing the Walmart brand right now.

[49:18] With his with his the moves that he's making in the stigma around Walmart is going to have to shift.
In order for them to remain competitive and in a certain sense they do have one competitive advantage and that is they've got.
A very large set of retail stores scattered throughout the country and so there's there's going to be there's going to be a fight it's not just it's not just going to be all lamps on all the time that's said.
I mean We've joked that our show is the Amazon show because it was on his doing so much cool stuff all the time and you know it's it's it's actually mind-boggling how much.

[50:05] Innovation is happening in an Amazon right now I may live in Seattle so I can be around at all the time.

[50:13] Like they're going and doing things that that everyone's been talking about doing or when like man you know futurecommerce you know a couple if we had started a couple years ago.
We would have been like oh yeah the whole walking to a store pick stuff up and walk out thing that's that's pretty find a future well Amazon just released a store that does exactly that,
you know they're taking risks and they're making moves that no one else's is making,
it's so yeah they're going to dominate in certain ways they're going to be in the Forefront and then they're going to their going to they're going to actually,
lead Arc are retail to its new future.

[50:58] I mean the concept is one thing right like I don't want to hijack your your your very.
A very poignant sort of soliloquy they're my my what I'm trying to but I was coming back to was.
What their Notions in the things that they're doing aren't necessarily.
Things that can't be replicated by other companies that already have.
Retail square footage to do it like if if if Walmart made a decision to do you know to do.

[51:32] Walk out of store you know they have they at least have the.
They actually have stores they don't have to go build them you know they actually have they have some of them got a leg up there and you know while the the notion is nice wasn't the the actual public.
Beta push back from Amazon already I think that you know it's not trying you know I'm just.
Thanks for sharing that the other news we definitely want to get to is,
you know today a lot of retailers release their same-store sales in and kind of a preview of earnings Macy's does both kind of together,
so Macy's has kicked the day off with a really sour note and the Saints were sales for the first quarter were down 5.2% year-over-year yeah I think Wall Street was looking at three down three so is almost,
twice as bad as folks. There's a number you'll see out there 4.6 and that's kind of this piece of Macy's that's called license to known I'm not an expert on that duh nursed and what's different but that was only down 4.6,
then you have Kohl's was down 2.7 Dillard's down for sacks down 4.8 and then Nordstrom's,
all in was down .8% but then you can actually Nordstrom's is to business there is the off-price and full price the full price was down 2.3%,
so you know.
I talked about in the show it's usually from the context of these malls closing but not all these guys are Mall retailers but it's pretty brutal out there you know it.

[53:06] It says it is a really rough time in in retail I've listened to you guys talked about it a little bit on your show,
any what what is your insight into that what's causing it without the what's causing it I think if you know.
If from a political perspective about the ability to you know create jobs and and and make an and keep the growth factor happening in our economy,
if you needed a distraction from retail crisis you know firing the head of the FBI was one way to do it.
Because nobody's talking about what you're talking about right now Macy's down 17% on the day after after that that report there after the that forecast come out today and I think we're.
This is what we all should be talking about ostensibly is that we're in a crisis and it's not just one that the Wall Street Journal had a heaven headline on but what's causing it I mean I think I think part you know.

[54:06] Part of it is you know changing and consumer expectations and demands and.
The the old end of the stalwarts can't keep up anymore and and so and especially because.
Malls of the destination I think is is an Antiquated idea.
So I mean I'm not going to say anything new about that subject that has already been said but I think the the idea that we're going to transform the retail experience into a different experience by layering digital on top of it.
Is is as is is the I don't know it's the retail equivalent of,
in a Weekend at Bernie's let's just prop up the Dead Guy and pretend like he's still alive for a little while,
yeah what one angle you guys may have on it that I wanted to ask about is when Shopify does their numbers they talk about a gmv number and,
it was a pretty robust I can't remember the exact number it was like north of 10% which which is kind of interesting so if your theory is Amazon's running away with it and taking share,
it seems like the SMB online would just be getting pummeled right but,
does she almost a bell curve where it's the omni-channel retail guys are getting pummeled they're not doing great online or offline Amazon's doing well and then there seems to be this kind of group of some bees that you know have,
you have to somehow figured it out what can you guys talk to all those folks would what is it they're doing that that's kind of causing him to Bakken and do you see that in your businesses.

[55:36] Good question I think that S&B is have done a good ass and bees have done is really do what we've already talked about a little bit which is there not competing with Amazon there there,
creating experiences for their customers that really cater their customers well and so they've gotten really specific and really honed and intuned into what their customers.
Are interested in in need and want and you know created product differentiation in and then you know and you know maybe they're selling through Amazon so you know Amazon,
Amazon's profiting from that but they're also profiting from that and so it's.

[56:16] It's you know I mean it Philip I'll let you speak to that to some degree as well but I think.

[56:24] The beautiful thing about being small is that you have the ability to to really focus,
and so do you start of mid-tier Amnesia and retailers I think that their strategy in terms of of early like that their Market was the same as Amazon's market and so they're getting killed because.
They're getting beat at their own game and so that's some BS that's not ever been their Market there their they're targeted.

[56:55] I have nothing more to add to that that's another thing is.
I will have a few points.
One thing is first of all you've got a generation that's now, sat coming into purchasing power and this generation has been through one of the worst recessions in history in American history.
Mom we're a lot more careful with our money and so and on top of that.
You've had insane amount of competition online and you've had sites come up like Retail Me Not in these passive Commerce sites like dealnews and Slickdeals and others ends.
They've created expectations about pricing and purchasing that that are more widespread than,
then what we used to think of us is crazy extreme couponers Extreme Couponing is not a thing that that a few people do now is something that everyone does.
And so were our expectations around what we pay for things.
Are are just completely different now and so even even Neiman Marcus is we talked about this on the show but they're saying price sensitivity is a big deal right now.
And so I think that's playing a big partner so not only are we are we coming out of the Great Recession never but now we have ways that we can save money and so I know I fall into an extreme category here but I would I would probably be.

[58:32] Categorized as an exploitive Shopper where I can I'm I'm buying things that I probably lower in lower than it took for a retailer to buy them,
because I know that I can wait I can wait around with my passive tools and way for price alerts and pick up that pair of Clark's 420 box.
And you know instead of the the retail price of of 120 or whatever it is.
I do have actually something to add which is I think that we're.
And III want myself into it even though I'm a gen-xer which by the way gen-xers have it worse than anyone because we're caught between two you know I'm jective Lee awful Generations,
my my take is that we are moving into a generation of people that are.

[59:22] That want to experience things for themselves and.
And so smbs who are offering lifestyle and who are offering you know a sort of way of life and connection with their brand and whether that's outdoor.
You know Outdoors or Source you know the Forever Summer sort of idea whatever that might be it's their goods and services that are around experience and I think that that sells pretty easily because it's the inexperienced as me being somewhere.
Living and maybe sharing it on Snapchat but I'm I'm going and I'm doing and I'm experiencing interesting things and these are the things that I bring with me.
Instead of you know the traditional you know hardgoods and soft goods that used to just outfit our homes,
you know where we spent most of our time and then take you no one vacation here I think we're we're kind of living life differently now and so maybe this is the new normal.
And we talked about this on futurecommerce we have it a retail analyst by the name of soccer pond at the Rodney and she shoots formerly of Andreessen Horowitz and done a lot of work in the VR space Butchy she has this theory that.

[1:00:35] You know you know maybe retail needs to rethink its model and operate more like Silicon Valley which have have a much longer investment curves and venture capital,
sort of 2 to back and have investment that gets you through they need to just generate profits and instead focus on the need to actually expand the,
the ubiquity of of you or your brand which I think is interesting take.

Jason:
[1:01:03] No it definitely is an that's actually going to be a great place to leave it for this week because it is happen again we have wasted a complete our of our listeners time so.

[1:01:14] Brian Philip we certainly appreciate you coming on the show and helping us to do so.

Scot, Brian, Philip:
[1:01:19] Yeah thanks guys we really enjoyed opportunity meet your audience and experiment with this whole cross podcast concept,
if you guys liked it be sure to let us know on Facebook or Twitter or wherever it is you like to leave feedback if you leave feedback in iTunes we always appreciate,
the five-star kind of feedback thanks guys thanks for having son straight.

Jason:
[1:01:43] Yep until next time happy commercing.