Engineering Ethics / Contractor Relationships

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode 14 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, my guests are Doug Nadeau and Chris Crivello of R Engineering. Rand Engineering is a fire protection engineering firm in upstate New York, outside of Albany. And we, today's discussion is all is, is kind of, uh, couple different topics. One, it starts off with engineering ethics, mainly on the fire protection side of things. And just in general, as a professional engineer, what you should be doing and how, how engineers learn ethics in their day-to-day job. Uh, we then transitioned to more of a discussion on, uh, engineering, cooperating with contractors in other parts of the trade. So, you know, as the whole, you know, we have different contractors, we have engineers, we have the building owners, we have hj. So how does the engineer relationship with the contractor and those others help the process out, move along? So Doug and Chris are a great fire protection engineer. So there's a lot of, uh, uh, things that we could have discussed, and I'll definitely have him on here again soon. But, um, yeah, hope you enjoy the podcast. Make sure to subscribe and tune into our social media channels. Thanks.

(01:35)
The last few episodes, I've been giving updates on Inspect Point, but today I wanted to give a, a real shout out to an association, a nonprofit organization that I've been involved with, uh, being in the New York community for, for the last two or three years. Uh, friends of Firefighters is a nonprofit organization that gives back to the New York community of firefighting fire protection. Um, I met them a few years ago. Uh, Nancy Carone, founder and c e founded the company back on September 11th. She was down in the trenches helping out, uh, with the needs of rebuilding down at where the, the two towers fell. Their efforts go unnoticed sometimes in the world of firefighting. Currently, they serve the New York and surrounding areas with, with firefighters and their families that have, have gone through traumatic in incidents. Um, a lot of that, even from a lot of the sicknesses happening around, uh, the September 11th tragedy and the firefighters that went down to help and clean up, uh, are now coming down with, uh, various illnesses.

(02:48)
Um, as you've seen in some of those viral videos from John Stewart, uh, trying to get better, uh, benefits for these fallen firefighters. So, wanna give a big shout out to Friends of Firefighters. We've been working with them pretty heavily, um, in the New York area. And, um, feel free to check 'em out@friendsoffirefighters.org. Uh, feel free to donate and, um, just show your support now onto the podcast. Thanks, Doug. Thanks Chris for joining the podcast today. Uh, I know I've, you know, we've chatted before. I've, I'm from actually where you guys live now, up that area. So I want, I wanted to get really an, uh, fire protection engineer or engineers on the podcast. I've, I've, I don't even know, I maybe have had a few that have had fps, but you guys are, I put you at the, the highest echelon of FPS out there. You've been doing it forever. Um,

Doug Nadeau: (03:46):

Thanks, drew. We appreciate that.

Drew Slocum: (03:49):

Tooting your horn.

Chris Crivello: (03:50):

Is it, is it both of us or just one of us? I gotta

Drew Slocum: (03:53):

Know. I, I said I, you know, both, uh, you both are. I know, you know,

Doug Nadeau: (03:59):

, that, that was Chris asking, Okay, well, I, I'll let Chris go first

Drew Slocum: (04:01):

The way. . Yeah, that was Chris. So, um, so what I wanna chat about today is it, it's, it's kind of gonna go a lot of different ways with the topic, but e engineering ethics and, you know, what, what FPS could do better in their roles to make the, I guess the fire protection industry, the contractors, the building owner, the HJS experience. Um, I guess that much better. So, you know, before we get into that, let's, uh, you know, let's introduce ourselves. Uh, if you wanna introduce yourselves to the, to the listenership and, uh, yeah. How you started, why you're in fire protection, and what, uh, what keeps you going during the day?

Chris Crivello: (04:48):

Yeah, I guess he wants me to go first cuz he wants to save all his, you know, big fancy credentials to go at. So . Um, so for the listeners out there, uh, my name is Chris Velo. Uh, you might recognize me from the, uh, NFSA Top Tech competition. I was the, the, uh, national champion back in 2017. So I would say that's my main claim to fame. Um, you know, fire protection standpoint. How did I get into it just purely by accident. So kind of like Drew, I went to, to RPI that does not have a fire protection engineering program. Never heard of it, never learned about it. And then, um, when I was graduating, Doug just started the company, ran Fire Protection Engineering here in Albany, and he was looking for his first employee. I was available, and it kind of just matched.

(05:44)
And now here we are, nine years later, going on 10 years, and it's, it's worked out pretty well. Dur during that time though, you gotta say what you did. You didn't just, he actually worked to get to the, the point where he is at. Um, he started as an intern part-time, but then he came on, I had one of the other guys I worked with came come to me and say, Doug, you better hire this guy, uh, full-time. So that's, that's how he started full-time. And then within a year of working full-time, Chris decided that, uh, he wanted to be a real fire protection engineer. He started going back and went back for, uh, his, uh, master's degree. And you can tell a little bit about that, the way he did that. Well, yeah, so my master's degree, I went back to, uh, Worcester Polytechnic Institute, wpi, uh, we're better than Maryland. I'll say that on the record.

Drew Slocum: (06:33):

. Oh, yeah. All right. Controversial to start.

Doug Nadeau: (06:39):

Um, but, you know, I went back, I did it at night and, you know, really what it came down to, like how I got into or why I stuck with Fire Protection engineering is it's just cool to go to work every day and get to do something different and know that what I'm doing at the end of the day matters because it, it's potentially saving people's lives. So, you know, that's the big thing for me.

Drew Slocum: (07:07):

That's great.

Doug Nadeau: (07:08):

That, that actually goes, goes back to the way we run the company and we tell everybody in our company is the decisions that we make every day impact people's lives. No matter how small or big it is, it can have that kind of impact. Um, so a a little bit about, about me, drew, my name's, uh, for your listeners. My name's Doug Nado. I'm, uh, my, as far as background goes is I'm, I'm a W P I grad. I actually went there as an undergraduate and I, I got a bachelor's in mechanical engineering and a bachelor's in physics. And then, uh, Hey Drew, what do you do when you graduate and you don't, you have two bachelor's degrees and you don't have a job.

Drew Slocum: (07:49):

Uh, you, you become a ski bum

Doug Nadeau: (07:53):

. That probably would've been an option, an option if I was good at skiing. But, uh, you, you, you actually go on to go back onto grad school and get a master's degree in Fire Protection Engineering. Oh, nice. And, uh, that, that's kind of how I fell into it. I got pretty lucky at, at W P I, I also had, uh, a number of paternity brothers, um, that were in fire protection engineering. They told me how great the field was. And, um, I had a great mentor in, uh, Bob Fitzgerald, uh, professor Fitzgerald, who actually helped establish the, the program at wpi. And so I, I kind of fell into, uh, fire protection by accident too. But it's been a, been 25 years later, it's been a great ex, you know, great life that, uh, it's been able to provide for me. Um, I enjoy, you know, what, what I do.

(08:42)
Um, when I was able to start the company, you know, almost 10 years ago, it was an opportunity that, uh, I, I took, you know, I seized. Um, and I've never looked back. We, we've done work now, not only all over New England, but all over the country. And we've had a number of international jobs where we've been able to travel to places like Thailand and, uh, you know, uh, Germany and, and Japan. And, and it, it's been fun. So it's been a great ride. Um, it's something that both Chris and I are, are very passionate about, and, uh, in the way that fire protection is done or we're passionate about, also making sure it's done correctly. Because what you do in this field impacts people's lives. And that's kind of, now that's, that's a little bit about us.

Drew Slocum: (09:32):

Good. Yeah, no, I, uh, you know, I knew you before you even got started, uh, with Rand and, um, you know, there's, there's not too many fire protection engineers that just are dedicated to that. Um, you know, there, there is around the us but I feel like most of the work is being done by mechanical engineers, plumbing engineers, you know, but there's a huge need for that Fire protection engineer. And, you know, I wonder, you know, the, the big schools wpi, Maryland, Oklahoma State, you know, you've got New Haven, Cal Poly, but there's not, there's definitely a bigger need for it. And, you know, hopefully some, some other schools are, you know, I don't even know how, you know, Chris and I kind of, and even your yourself to a certain extent, Doug kind of fell into fire protection, um, not knowing about it. If you don't, if you're not going to one of those schools, how do you, you know, how does anybody know about Fire protection engineering? I guess, so,

Doug Nadeau: (10:34):

Well, what was a big thing last week, I spent all last week at the, uh, society of Fire Protection Engineers Convention out in Phoenix, which was a, a great experience. And what came out of that, one of the big things that came out of that last week was the shortage of fire protection engineers in this country. There's, the schools just are not able to produce enough engineers for the number of jobs out there. It's a, so the field is just growing dramatically. The need has never gone down in years, and it just gets more and more. So it's, uh, which unfortunately too, it, it allows opportunities for sometimes for, uh, fire protection to be, um, pushed to the wayside. And in the general, you know, the way General Construction's done.

Drew Slocum: (11:20):

Yeah, yeah. There's a, there's a big shortage, not even on engineering, but on, on the contracting side too. You know, there's a, uh, you know, yeah. Whether it's a technician fitter, uh, or even some of the office staff, it's, it's, uh, it's tough to find good people these days. So,

Doug Nadeau: (11:39):

Well, drew, you do work all over the country. Do, uh, is there, uh, anywhere in the country that actually has a, an adequate supply of, um, fitters and laborers and everything else for, for sprinkler contractors out there? Oh,

Drew Slocum: (11:54):

For anywhere for sprinkler, fire alarm, extinguisher suppression, whatever, whatever. We're on everything. Inspection, testing, and maintenance. And everywhere throughout the country is, is having issues. And Wow. A lot of that, I think is the, just the boom in the construction, uh, economy, you know, and we're, I think we're at a kind of a, a top for that, for the install. So I, I think when that, uh, you know, when that dips down a little bit, which it, it probably needs to, to go into a little bit of a low, um, you know, there'll be some more technicians and Andy even engineers to fill some of that void. Um, you know, in the, in the coming years. I, I think we can't keep go, the construction building can't keep going up, you know, that's been going up for over 10 years. Right. So I think that's a lot of it. Well,

Doug Nadeau: (12:54):

Let's just hope it doesn't go down anytime soon, though.

Drew Slocum: (12:58):

I think it's six months away, honestly, it depends on where you're at in the country. But, um, you know, there's already indicators out there with, and you commercial's probably. Okay. And, you know, you've got retrofitting and all that. So I, I think fire protection's pretty, um, protected a little bit. But, you know, new housing, I, I can't see, you know, new housing getting on another boom like it has been over the last 10 years. But that's not, if fire protection's really not into that category, I guess. Cause you're not getting 'em in, you're not getting fire protection in those single family homes, usually

Doug Nadeau: (13:35):

Unfor Yeah, unfortunately. Unfortunately, though, unfortunately, I mean, that was just voted down again in New York State so that they have a brand new single family homes having Sprinklr protection. It was pushed back and, uh, not allowed to be put into the building code, it looks like, again, in New York.

Drew Slocum: (13:53):

Yeah. It's the building, building, building over, or, um, you know, the, uh, developers and, uh, home builder lobbies, you know, really shoot that, shoot that down. And it, it's unfor it's unfortunate. And I maybe at some point do a podcast about that and you know, how to combat it. And at least just get the message out there to the public. Um, and maybe this is one avenue. I don't, I don't know if I'm reaching every, every home builder out there, but, um, or even the public. But it, it, it's nice to at least try to get that message out there.

Doug Nadeau: (14:26):

Yep.

Drew Slocum: (14:27):

So, um, let, let's kinda get into it. I know, I know you guys did a little introduction about yourselves, Doug, uh, Doug and Chris. You work for, you know, Doug, you founded ran Chris, you're the, you know, you're the, what is your title? Chris

Doug Nadeau: (14:41):

? Uh, now I'm a principal.

Drew Slocum: (14:43):

Oh, you're a principal. Okay. And you got that, you got that N F S A title. You don't have it anymore though, right?

Doug Nadeau: (14:51):

Well, well, how I look at it is, you know, once you're the champion, you're always the champion, as long as you don't go back and lose. So,

Drew Slocum: (14:57):

.

Doug Nadeau: (14:59):

So now the, uh, you know, now the next, the next challenge I'm gonna try to go under is take, take some young understudies and try to break the record for youngest person. Ever win that

Drew Slocum: (15:09):

Competition? Oh, you'd be like, uh, see's Rocky's coach there, right?

Doug Nadeau: (15:14):

Exactly. Exactly.

Drew Slocum: (15:17):

Mixed,

Doug Nadeau: (15:19):

There you go. Yeah, mixed .

Drew Slocum: (15:23):

So, um, all right, let's get kick in here. Uh, so I wanted to really talk about engineering, um, and, and really ethics and more geared, obviously toward fire protection. Um, you know, there's a lot of different en engineering disciplines out there. There's, you know, we, you know, I'm, I have an engineering degree as well from, from rpi more on the manufacturing side of things. But, you know, there's ethical, uh, just day-to-day ethical engineering behavior that you're really, you're taught a little bit of it in school, and I feel like you're taught more in school than you actually are in the real world, unfortunately. So, how, I guess, Doug, Chris, what is, what is engineering ethics for fire protection, and why is that important? I guess?

Doug Nadeau: (16:11):

So I guess first Drew, it's kind of interesting to me that you said you learned it in school. Cause I mean, I was only a couple years behind you at rpi, and I don't remember learning anything on ethics there,

Drew Slocum: (16:21):

Really. Yeah. We were, we were required to take two class, uh, or maybe I did it. No, I thought we were required to take an engineering ethics class, and it was all about, yeah. Um, learning really about disasters in engineering more than anything. Like Chernobyl, like Three Mile Island. It was more about that. And you know, how that, how your decisions as an engineer really affect, could affect the public and, you know, human humans or the environment.

Doug Nadeau: (16:53):

Right. So I guess I was looking at it a little bit differently as like, what's, you know, pertinent to this, this conversation. Like, I felt like I never really learned in school until I got to the master's level as a licensed fire protection engineer. What your role is, you know, what your, your liabilities or your responsibilities are. Right. And really what it boils down to is, you know, every state has slightly different, you know, requirements or, or wording in their, their specific laws. But as an engineer, it's our job to uphold the health and safety of the general public, like that that's the one line that it boils down to. And we're responsible as engineers to make sure we practice within our discipline. So, when, you know, when Doug and I teach a seminar, I say all the time is, I'm a fire protection engineer.

(17:53)
Would you feel comfortable with me designing a bridge that you're gonna drive your car over? And really the answer is no. Right? I, I don't want to drive over a bridge if I'm designing it. That's what, you know, a bridge engineer is for, right? It's the same thing with, you know, the different trades inside of a building, whether you have mechanical, electrical, you know, plumbing, civil, structural, or fire protection. They're all different trades. And where we'd start talking about this topic of engineering ethics, it's, you know, it's rooted in the fact of recognizing what your, what your background is in, you know, what you were trained and what you, you know, have experienced in actually practicing that topic.

Drew Slocum: (18:42):

Sure. So what, what is the role of a fire protection engineer? I guess starting, let's start from there and then kinda get into the ethics of that. What, what is the role? Where do you, I, I know what your guys' role is, but what is, what is the role supposed to be for a fire protection engineer?

Doug Nadeau: (18:59):

Well, in a, in a way that, that's still evolving and it's evolved over the years because Fire Protection Engineering is considered the youngest trade out of all the other building system trades. So, and the evolution really kind of came out with, if you wanna look at the history of it, is that we started becoming needed or desired due to big fires over the history of time. And, uh, such as the London fire, the Chicago fires, those types of large fires. I mean, we have, even in Troy, New York, there was two large fires here. One, one of which, a little over a hundred years ago, uh, destroyed 508 buildings. So it's kind of amazing. Conflagrations happened of that. And then the push was, Hey, how are we gonna address it? And initially the insurance companies pushed it, cause obviously they didn't want to do the payouts, but at the same time, it was the, it started boiling down again to the health and safety of, of the, you know, the people and the public.

(20:02)
And so architects started getting a little involved along with firefighters and building officials. And what they did is they, they did a lot of rule of thumb type things. They did a lot of, um, not too much based in science. And what happened was is that you, it, it developed over, and, and this is throughout the country and you can see it in different areas, um, more prominent than others, is it developed false census of security. And as the building codes evolved over the years, more science started going into it. And what people realize, uh, especially in the sixties, uh, is that that level of science that needs to be put into it really should be from a, um, specialized field. That's where fire protection engineering really started kind of coming to the forefront, was that engineers that studied just fire and studied how fire interacted with building structures started to, uh, be able to provide input on the way building codes could come around.

(21:04)
So a fire protection engineer now really can, if, if utilized effectively, can be involved from the very beginning of the building, from where you even cite a building, uh, you know, within a, within a whatever land that you have to, you, you know, you're, you're citing one or two or multiple buildings to how you design different types of fire protection systems from sprinkler systems, fire alarm systems to smoke control systems, or, or even, you know, what we do with, you know, uh, here is fire modeling where you can actually develop how a fire could potentially, uh, grow within a building. And, you know, then design effective, active and passive fire protection features, which could actually lead to a much more economical design. So, I mean, in essence, as a fire protection engineer, yes, we can design fire alarm systems, smoke control systems, sprinkler systems, but, uh, we can be involved into the code consulting, um, or, and then all ob you know, at the end of it is observing the installation of the actual systems and then finally the commissioning of those systems. Yeah. So just like any other engineer, we kind of, we kind can be involved in every aspect. And, and in some ways, the one difference that we are to some of the other engineers is we're probably, uh, cross trained, trained and involved in the different trades that are out there, um, to make a holistic building design fire safe.

Drew Slocum: (22:37):

Interesting. Yeah, you're right. It, it is an evolving thing within, uh, um, you know, the building industry and, you know, where does a, a straight up fire protection engineer, the thing is, if there's not enough fire protection engineers, somebody's gonna have to do the engineering at some point. So, um, yeah, that's, I guess what, that's correct. That that's the quandary the industry's in right now. So,

Doug Nadeau: (23:03):

And, and that, and that's where the ethics kind of comes in because all engineers are, are supposed, you know, is definitely, you know, the license are, are supposed to be acting in an ethical way. And, uh, like Chris kind of touched on it, was that, uh, you're supposed to as a licensed engineer, um, operate within your education and experience. And a lot of times those words, education and experience are written right into the, to the law of each state as to the way that an engineer is supposed to, uh, function within a construction project. Sure. And, um, and so just like you said, there are people that have to come in to fill the void. Um, you can, you can fill the void as a, as another type of engineer, as long as you have the education and experience Right. To fill that void. Um, that's where we, we kind of see that, uh, you know, there could be problems.

(23:54)
And we've seen problems over the years, uh, where that has happened, where you can see in what I think what sometimes doesn't occur to people, um, is if there isn't a legal practice of engineering, like in most states, there's actually a, a criminal charge that can be, uh, applied to 'em in, in New York state, it's actually a Class E felony. Wow. If there's a legal practice of engineering. So it's not, it's not like a light little right. Thing that's kind of taken and, and un and fire protection, unlike some other building systems where, you know, hey, the light switch doesn't work. So the, the, you know, the lights don't turn on fire protection. You only realize when fire protection systems don't work usually at the worst time.

Drew Slocum: (24:36):

Yep. Worst time when there's a fire. Yeah, yeah,

Doug Nadeau: (24:40):

Yeah. Exactly.

Drew Slocum: (24:42):

How, how many, uh, fire protection engineers are in New York, just straight up Fire protection engineers?

Doug Nadeau: (24:48):

Boy, so Chris is the, the current, uh, treasurer for S F P, I'm past president in S F P E Empire Chapter. So our, our territory only is everything north of New York City. So, um, not, not if you don't realize how big New York is, that's a pretty big area to try to, uh, herd the stray cats. Sure. Um, trying to say how many licensed fire protection engineers there are. I, I mean, so I, I would, I would, uh,

Drew Slocum: (25:22):

It can't be that many.

Doug Nadeau: (25:25):

Right. Well, I would preface our answer by saying licensed Fire Protection engineers in upstate New York who are consulting engineers right there, there's other fire protection engineers out there who work for maybe like state agencies or government agencies or, you know, large manufacturing companies or municipalities where, you know, they are, they are fire protection engineers who are trained and went to school and got their pe but they don't do exactly what we do on a day-to-day basis. Sure. Where we're, you know, designing new buildings and structures.

Drew Slocum: (26:02):

Gotcha.

Doug Nadeau: (26:03):

And you know, I don't want to, I don't want to put a number that, that people are gonna say, you know, that's wrong or whatever, but in reality, in upstate New York, you're, you're maybe in the 10 to 15 licensed fire protection engineers Yeah. You know, in that range who do do what we do.

Drew Slocum: (26:24):

Yeah. I mean, that's the point right there. There's not enough, there're not, there's not enough to do it. So, you know, are there other people get into it, other engineer trades get into it, and then, you know, your ethics start, you know, dwindling from there because they don't fully know, you know, fire protection. So, um, yeah.

Doug Nadeau: (26:46):

There's times Chris and I could tell story after stories where unfortunately what we see happen a lot of times, and it kind of goes on the history of way, especially how sprinklers have evolved, is that, um, you know, years ago, uh, when sprinkler design really started coming about was cuz insurance companies started pushing it and they started telling building owners, Hey, install sprinklers into your, your building. And so building owners turned to their architect and a told the architect, Hey, we need to put a sprinkler system in. And our architect, you know, back, back then just said, the easiest way to do that since is I'll turn to my engineers, Hey engineers, you guys design sprinkler systems. And at that time, the engineers didn't know how to design sprinkler systems, so it just kind of went to the contractor. And then that's where the sprinkler contractors and the design build concept really came from in, uh, the sprinkler industry.

(27:39)
Which is kind of interesting because even to, to this day that that model is applied in many states. Sure. Where the architect sometimes just, uh, will put a, what we will, Chris and I will kind of in, you know, call it a bubble around the building and say, install print FPA 13, and then the sprinkler contractor has to figure that out. That's not a, you know, that's not a design criteria. But now that the sprinkler contractor is responsible for that, and sometimes too is there's the next level what the, uh, either the architect will do or the maybe MEP engineer will do, will say install per NFPA 13, uh, for to the contractor and for the contractor to get an engineer a record Gotcha. Hoping they can, um, spread out the liability of the, you know, sprinkler system design. Uh, unfortunately what we see happen is, is that, you know, you could get contractors out there that say, okay, well, all I need to do is get my drawing stamped, not understanding that the engineer of record is supposed to be responsible. Right. To develop the design criteria. And that's where, you know, and then it just goes downhill from there.

Drew Slocum: (28:55):

Yeah. I, I could see design build being, uh, you know, I've seen it successful in, in a lot of areas, but I've also seen it, you know, where, like you said, if somebody's just getting a, a, a civil engineer stamp throwing it through the system and they're, you know, it's that rubber quote unquote rubber stamp, uh, methodology where they're just stamping to get their fee and then they're, they're off to the next thing.

Doug Nadeau: (29:21):

Yeah. Well, usually off to the greens. Right. , for the greens fee.

Drew Slocum: (29:27):

Yeah. For the greens paye. Yeah. It, it's kind of wild that that happens. And, you know, again, if, if a fire doesn't happen that often, because, you know, fire protection has gotten way better over the last a hundred, a hundred years, uh, you know, with fire alarm, with sprinkler, with suppression systems. So, um, you know, you're still gonna have that and you, you still have a huge liability, but if you don't have a fire, that person's not getting in trouble. So they don't really care about, you know, whether they are rubber stamping or not. Uh, I don't know, maybe the penalty's not great enough.

Doug Nadeau: (30:02):

I I think you make a great point there. We, we kinda also look at it as fire protection systems don't make the building owner any money, unlike H V A C systems or your lighting. Good point. Stuff where that can attract, uh, you know, occupants and, and people to, uh, leases. Building a fire protection system doesn't make anybody, anybody money, you know, or a building owner any money.

Drew Slocum: (30:24):

That's true.

Doug Nadeau: (30:25):

Yeah. Kinda kind of add to add on what, what you were saying Drew and what Doug was saying, when it comes to licensed engineers, there's no, it's not like there's a, you know, engineering cops out there who are gonna try to catch you for doing the wrong thing. Right. It's, it's widely, um, self-policing. So to really notice or find out when there's, there's, you know, shady work going on, I'll call it, kind of like what we've been talking about. You don't know until that bad thing happens.

Drew Slocum: (30:59):

Yeah. I guess, you know, from the contractor's perspective, you have, you know, building officials, departments of buildings and, you know, other inspectors out there that do inspect, you know, installs on the job, but nobody's inspecting those, you know, those building fishes don't have the, the wherewithal to, to inspect the, the plans a lot of times. So

Doug Nadeau: (31:20):

That, that's a great point. That's a great point. I, I've, uh, it's kind of interesting cause we, we've given a, a course on ethics. I, I probably have, uh, uh, talked to about 2,500 code enforcement officials just in New York state alone. And that is some of the, some of the restrictions that some of them have is just they're, they themselves didn't come from the fire protection field. They came from some other trade, but they're now put into a position where they have to, um, make decisions on fire protection mm-hmm. . And so what, what they tend to do is just rely heavily on that PE stamp that's there, assuming the PE has done his job.

Drew Slocum: (32:01):

Right. Right. Yeah. It's, uh, right. It's a, it's an interesting, uh, so, so across fire protection, uh, I know you guys get involved in a lot of sprinkler, what, you know, there, there's a lot of different fire protection, you know, realms out there. Do you see Yes. Where, where, I guess where's the biggest issue with ethic? Is it on the sprinkler side, which you're most involved in? Is it on, you know, I mean, the fire alarm's pretty, obviously, it's three to four times the size of that sprinkler market. Um,

Doug Nadeau: (32:35):

Well, well at, at ran fire protection, our, our workload is, you know, from a sprinkler standpoint is about 27% of our overall, you know, types of designs we do out of here besides, you know, fire alarm, smoke control systems, code consulting. So we do a lot, uh, a heavy amount of sprinkler, but, uh, I don't know, what do you think, Chris? Is the, where we see it most? I'm trying, I'm trying to think of an answer, drew. It's, it's not really focused in one area. Right. You know, the, the epidemic I'll call it that everyone thinks about is with sprinklers, but we, we really do see it across the board with all different aspects.

Drew Slocum: (33:18):

Right.

Doug Nadeau: (33:19):

Um, you know, and it's, you know, and there's a balance and we can maybe talk about that later that, you know, it's the blame, like if that's, if that's even the correct word, it's, it's not just all on the engineers, it has to do with contractors and their qualifications also.

Drew Slocum: (33:38):

Yeah. Yeah. What, what jurisdiction and what state codes and whatever.

Doug Nadeau: (33:43):

Right. And, and I mean, you know, we, you, you see it or you talk about it a lot with sprinkler systems, but I mean, smoke control systems, for example, the, every, every, you know, a agency or state that has adopted the 2015 IBC or later editions, smoke control now says you have to essentially do a fire hazard analysis and determine what your characteristic fires are gonna be and what the heat release rate is and so on. It's not like the older versions of the code that said you can just assume a five megawatt fire and in nine times outta 10 jobs severely overdesigned your smoke control

Drew Slocum: (34:27):

System. Right.

Doug Nadeau: (34:28):

So, you know, you'll still see, you know, say mechanical engineers just say, I'm gonna use that old code section and apply it to new code. So it's that to me, that's the same kind of thing. And that's not sprinkler related at all.

Drew Slocum: (34:43):

Yeah. Smoke control seems to be, and then go ahead.

Doug Nadeau: (34:48):

Then, then we get calls at the end of the project when they can't open the doors because of the wind tunnel they created, and they don't understand what happened there. And, um, and usually it's, they forget at the end that they gotta do, you know, uh, uh, special acceptance testing per code. Right. Which then when the, the, whether it's the fire marshal or the fire chief or, or the state agency comes along and says, okay, what's the acceptance criteria? And they don't even have that developed. So it's, it's one of those things, I mean, we do see it across the board. Right. So, and I'll, and I'll say, I'll add to that, the other big thing that I, that I, that comes to my mind is industrial occupancies also. Oh

Drew Slocum: (35:28):

Yeah.

Doug Nadeau: (35:29):

Because even, you know, even if you are, say, an MEP engineer and you have the background in, you know, basic sprinkler and coming up with hazard classifications and, you know, general design criteria, you go into an industrial occupancy now and you may look at something and say, yeah, that's extra hazard group too, you know, for example. But you also gotta realize, oh, this is an explosive material. We have to, you know, do explosion protection systems or blow out walls or, you know, things like that. So that's the kind of stuff that, that, that will get missed. That

Drew Slocum: (36:10):

How often as it

Doug Nadeau: (36:11):

Related.

Drew Slocum: (36:13):

How often is an engineer, are you declaring the classification now? Don't you usually kind of defer that back to the insurer?

Doug Nadeau: (36:22):

No, so, all right. So this is one topic that I have a whole presentation on that I like to talk about.

Drew Slocum: (36:27):

I didn't tee it up for you. I, that was a real question,

Doug Nadeau: (36:31):

. So, I mean, since we're talking about ethics, right? I usually default to the N C E E S code of ethics, cuz that is what every engineer signs their name for when they take the PE exam. And every state has their own code of ethics, but it's all rooted in the same thing. And, and, um, for sprinkler system, and actually the newer versions of NFP 13 handbook has like a whole one and a half or two page discussion on this that starts talking about what an engineer's role is in, you know, minimum, uh, information required to establish engineering precedent. And how I teach it is, as an engineer, your main job is to define that hazard. If you can't tell a contractor if this building or this occupancy is light or ordinary or extra hazard or whatever type of high piled storage arrangement, you're not establishing engineering precedent that's required to be established by the engineer. Right. And, you know, in most areas throughout the country, it, it's written in law that a contractor cannot make that determination.

Drew Slocum: (37:50):

Yeah.

Doug Nadeau: (37:51):

I, but even to expand, ex expand on that a little bit is, well, if you default to the insurer, like, uh, we had a project in Japan that the insurance company was, uh, uh, citing the industrial owner for about 80 million of fire protection upgrades. When we actually went through and we did our fire fire hazard analysis and we're kind of very, uh, to the point with what needed to be protected, the level of protection that had to be provided and how it provided either better protection than what the insurer, uh, you know, was requesting, or, um, equal protection. We, we were able to take 80 million of upgrades and reduce it to about 12 million of upgrades with having, you know, money well spent. So sometimes just deferring to what an insurer says, um, could lead to one spending extra money and two, maybe not even addressing the hazards as they are. Cause um, the, the insurer's only looking out for their own best interests. Right. Not doing a payout. Sure. They're not, they're not always looking out for their, their client's best interests in that sense. Right.

Drew Slocum: (39:00):

Yeah. They just don't want pay out.

Doug Nadeau: (39:04):

Right. And then, and another thing is, you know, it's a common misconception that if you listen to the insurance carrier, it's automatically more stringent than the, the building code or N F P A standards. And from my experience That's true maybe 50% of the time.

Drew Slocum: (39:20):

Wow.

Doug Nadeau: (39:21):

Every year there's, there's dozens of projects that we work on where, you know, most of the time it's probably a design built project and the performance spec goes out and it lists say this FM design criteria factor and mutual to follow. And the contractor will come to us and say, Hey, we got given this design criteria, what does the building code say? And I honestly think it's roughly 50% of the time the building code is equally stringent, if not more stringent than an insurance carrier. Um, you know, a good example is a project that we worked on at Rand maybe like six or seven months ago that was a, um, a Budweiser storage facility, which is near and dear to my heart cause that's my favorite drink. But, um, . But, uh, they were building a warehouse that was storing, you know, bud a hundred feet high almost.

(40:20)
Wow. And performance spec was to only follow fm you know, whatever data sheet they called out. And that data sheet said you needed to put, um, solid barriers and rack sprinklers at every other level of storage. Wow. Where NFP 13 in that specific storage arrangement that they had in that building wanted those barriers at every single level. So the change order was pretty good for the sprinkler contractor when he had to install twice as many indirect sprinklers in a Right. You know, massive building with a hundred foot high storage. And then a PA 13 takes precedent because that is the law of the land and the reference standard used by the building code FM global data sheets aren't referenced by the building code.

Drew Slocum: (41:11):

Interesting. So even if it's, even if it's FM insured, you would still follow NFP 13 instead of the FM guidelines.

Doug Nadeau: (41:20):

You, we have to make sure we follow both. So that's, and that, and that actually kind of goes back to like our relationships that we develop with contractors and, uh, you know, and how we try to get along with contractors and, and vice versa is, is when you can have a good relationship and you can talk to, you know, a contractor can have a level of faith in the way that you're going to a, address a project, um, in their best interest along with, you know, the best interest of making the right decisions. Um, it, it allows for a better design. Um, so it, it's, it is a, not not all, not all contractors work that way, and not all engineers work the way we do too.

Drew Slocum: (42:03):

Yeah, that's, that's a good point you bring up. And you know, I I, I've, I've had some speakers at some associations, and you, I've been at one a few years ago where you had did one, Doug, but there was another one recently in New York City where, how, how does the, how does the relationship benefit from communication between the contractor and engineering? And I guess how does that work? Is it just a straight up, Hey, I'm working on this project, let's have a, you know, just a, a quick info informal introduction and, you know, um, if there's any issues, let's, let's work on them versus go through formal change orders or, and all that. So do you wanna explain that process a little bit?

Doug Nadeau: (42:46):

Well, so before we kind of get into that topic, I'll, I'll ask you a question. If you're, if you're a contractor and I'm an engineer, what's really both of us, we have the same goal for every project. Yep. Do you know what that goal is?

Drew Slocum: (43:01):

That's dollars.

Doug Nadeau: (43:04):

There you go. Yep. Exactly. We're all, we're all in this scheme to make money. Now, we also, we don't want to do the right thing and we wanna make sure the building is safe. Correct. And it's compliant, but at the end of the day, we're all in this to make money. Right. So, you know, when Doug talks about you, uh, his, his, uh, his seminar contractors and engineers, why can't we just get along? You know, that's what it boils down to is how do we communicate effectively that we can all be profitable at the end of the day.

Drew Slocum: (43:36):

Right. And, and, and lower risk, you know, you don't wanna have Right. You know, you don't wanna chance your, your license and the contractor doesn't wanna, you know, get the project stalled or, you know, obviously it all boils down to dollars at the end of the day, whether it's risk or actual profit. So,

Doug Nadeau: (43:55):

I mean, I, I've been lucky in my career and early in my career, I, I worked for a sprinkler contractor, uh, Citypoint Fire Protection out in Boston, a great contractor, and

Drew Slocum: (44:05):

Oh, they're doing a demo with me here soon.

Doug Nadeau: (44:08):

Oh, are they All right. Yeah. The John Cochinos Assaultive Earth type guy. I like John and Mike out there. They're, they're great guys. Um, and I got, I got lucky with that experience because I, I, I've been able to see the construction on both sides of the aisle from a, from a contractor's point of view, and, and also from an, you know, a consulting engineer's point of view. And, and, you know, Chris hit the nail on the head and it's about making money. And it, it is, I mean, ultimately our, our goal is to have a safe building and, you know, have the right building designed, but if we don't all make money, uh, somewhere, something's gonna go wrong. And so if we can all start, you know, getting along and, and know what to do in a way that could assist everybody, that's, that's usually, uh, the, the key.

(44:59)
And, and one of the things I, I talk to contractors and engineers about, and I, I've given these presentations, you know, for nfsa and, uh, American Society of, uh, plumbing engineers and, and, uh, uh, a few other, uh, areas around the, around the, the country is that it's, it, it really comes down to is if you understand the other side's point of view is if engineers understand really what contractors need from them that, you know, contractors are, are looking from engineers is, Hey, give me that design criteria. Let me know how to design this. Um, and do it just that way. Where, you know, uh, engineers have to know is that, hey, if a contractor gives the submittal in, don't just sit on it for a month and a half or two months and then send it back rejected. Just cuz they spelled something wrong on the title block without reviewing the actual content of the, the working drawings and saying, Hey, everything's good on that.

(45:58)
Um, cuz we, we do see that. And uh, that's one of the, the things that's kind of funny though. It's when I, when I first started, you know, diving into the topics of, you know, engineers and contractors, why can't we just get along? I was talking to my youngest daughter on it and, uh, and, and she's a, a little bit of a, a smart alec, I would say. And, uh, and I said, you know, I, I, she asked me what I was gonna give a, a seminar on. I, I kind of told her what it was, and she said to me, she goes, oh, dad, I, I know the reason why there's a problem. And I go, well, I go, well, what's that reason, Keegan? She goes, well, you gotta understand. She goes, engineers h