Firefighting Foam Testing

Full Transcript

Drew Slocum: (00:09):

This is episode 11 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect Point. Today, my guest is Todd Stevens. Todd is the head of Special Hazards for the JC Canister Company in Watertown, Massachusetts. Todd and I go back a few years from our old Viking days and our old, uh, competition days at Tyco and Viking, but Todd's a very big wealth of knowledge in the special hazards industry. He also sits on the board of F S S A throughout the us. So today we discussed Fire fighting, fire protection foam. Um, there's some new technologies out there. Uh, we also got into some of the environmental impacts that are, that are happening with some of the false ditch discharges and issues we're starting to see around the country with fire protection foam, uh, getting into various water sources. So JC Canister also reps, fire Doss. Fire Doss is a, um, uh, foam equipment, uh, proportioner manufacturer out of Germany. So we get into that toward the end. And, uh, yeah, it was a fun conversation with Todd and, um, hope you enjoy and feel free to reach out to all our social media channels here at Inspect Point and enjoy.

(01:29)
I wanted to take a quick minute before we start this podcast to give everybody an update on where Inspect Point is and will be going over the next few months. So we keep launching about 20 new features a month, a lot of them being driven by our current customer base, so the Fire Protection community. We really want to hear your thoughts and your opinions to give us feedback to, to grow our product. And that's, that keeps piling on of what we currently have in the product few modules that we are launching or have launched over the last few months. Uh, the Deficiency Management feature within Inspect Point is like no others in the industry, you know, after the inspections from the technician in the field, we're taking a lot of that data, a lot of that deficiency data, and not only pushing it into the cloud to, to push out a report to our customer, but we're also taking those deficiencies, pushing them to new inspections for new technicians and even pushing them onto a proposal for your customer. So it's kind of an all-encompassing, uh, inspection management and proposal feature. Uh, there has been some recent, uh, sales features as well. We're almost getting into the CRM Salesforce style model of software. So I just wanted a quick update. Please check us out on inspect point.com, request a demo, and here's Todd on the podcast.

Todd Stevens: (02:57):

, I can do that all day long. I can do that for a half hour. I know if you want . So, uh, I got Todd Stevens here. Todd is the, uh, fire Protection Special Hazards project manager for, uh, JC Castro and, and Watertown Mass. So, uh, wanted to talk today about, um, fire protection foam, some of the environmental concerns we have and what's been popping up in the news. And I know, uh, uh, canister's got some new technology that they're a rep for currently. So, uh, called Fire Dos. So we'll get into that toward, uh, toward the end. But, um, yeah, welcome Todd. Thank you. Thanks for having me. This is, uh, this is fun. I know we've been talking about doing this for a while, so it's glad we finally get a chance to get together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, uh, give me a little, I know all about you, probably a little too much, but, uh, give kind of the listenership who you are, what you've been doing over the last 15, 20 years, and Sure.

(03:57)
What you're doing now. Okay. Well, everybody always has a funny story with fire protection and how they get into the industry, but for me, it was, um, I was a CAD guy. I knew AutoCAD got into a consulting engineering firm, drawing lines in circles, and I said, Hey, I wanna do what the engineers do. I wanna learn what these lines and circles are all about. Yeah. Um, so I was in consulting engineering for, um, probably about four or five years. Where is that? Um, in Massachusetts, middle bar, mass. It was a small company, Crowley Engineering. All right. Uh, which is, uh, known well to that, that part of the world. Nice. And worked there for a while. Learned a lot about plumbing and fire protection engineering. Um, wanted to focus more on fire protection, so I moved from there to contracting. Okay. Uh, and that was back in 2000.

(04:41)
I went to go work for 2001, went to work for Charro Oh. As a fire protection design. I know. See, I didn't know everything. Yeah. . Um, so I worked there for five years and, uh, again, that's based out of Watertown, Massachusetts. And my wife and I decided at that point we're gonna pack up and move to North Carolina. So we left the area. And with that, I left my job behind and went to go work for Viking. Yep. So I went from the contracting side to the manufacturing, uh, and worked for Viking slash Minimax for 10 years, uh, as a national technical rep Yep. On the Viking sprinkler side. And then got more into the special hazard stuff with, with Minimax. Gotcha. Uh, and then about three and a half years ago, left, uh, Viking Minimax and came back to Canne Raro here in Massachusetts.

(05:24)
Nice. So I kind of did a full circle. Yeah. But, but you haven't moved back up here? I have not moved. No. I, I love North Carolina, but by the way, we're recording this in, uh, middle of nowhere Massachusetts , so, uh, I don't even know where we are, but That's all right. . Um, yeah, North Carolina is great. I think I, we came down, I came down a couple years ago to Pines, so Todd lives in an awesome area. Yeah. Um, you go into the amateur this weekend. Um, I may Yes. You better. Yes. Yeah. , I've been, I've been following us amateurs this weekend in Pinehurst, so it's pretty big deal for golf, golf fans. Lots of people in town. Yeah. Um, you know, before we get started here, what, what, what did you learn? You know, we, we both have a slightly similar background.

(06:07)
I, you know, we both, I started with a manufacturer, did engineering, uh, manufacturing, engineering, and, um, got into the sales and technical end. Mm-hmm. , so we kind of ended up in the same spot I went obviously at Spec Point route, you're back with JC . What, what, what did you learn from being, working with a manufacturer? Because I, probably similar a ton. . Yeah. Seriously. It's, um, and again, starting in engineering and then going to manufacturing, uh, excuse me, contracting and then manufacturing. Um, I kind of got a, a little bit of everything from those different elements of, of the process. Um, but manufacturing, there's just so much detail that you learn about products and, and just simply how they're made, uh, right. And, and the, the process behind it. Yeah. Which I think makes us, you know, more knowledgeable about the industry as a whole.

(06:56)
Sure. Um, because you understand more, um, you know, I've always learned that, you know, tell me something, I'll forget it. Show me something, I'll remember it. Right. But involve me in something and I'll understand it. So it's kinda one of those things that manufacturing truly involved me in my opinion, um, in fire protection. Yeah. And, uh, learned a lot that way. So, yeah. I, I, uh, you know, it's interesting you say that cuz you know, manufacturers, you know, market and develop their product on the needs of contractors and engineers, right? Yep. And, you know, just code in general. However, manufacturers also can manipulate code Yeah. By just being a big powerhouse manufacturer, so. Sure. Yeah. It's, uh, it's kind of a full, full realm there, but, uh, they do drive it and, and it's driven by new technology, uh, yeah. Which is why we're here today too. Talking and, and that, that forces the codes to make changes as well. Right, right. Based on that new technology, I feel like technology, whether it's manufacture, technology based, is usually ahead of the curve. Mm-hmm. then code and code always seems to have to catch up, which is, it seems a little, uh, backwards. Yeah. You think the code would be first and, and the needs of that. But, you know, I guess who's got all the money, right. Manufacturers, .

(08:10)
Um, so you know enough about, enough about your background. We can maybe get into more of that toward the end. But, um, you know, I want to talk about, uh, foam fire protection. So foam fire protection, uh, I'll let you get into it. Sure. Uh, I guess what is foam for fire protection for any, any, anybody that doesn't know out there? Well, there's a lot of different, um, things when we think of foam, uh, you know, a lot of people immediately think of high expansion foam and aircraft hangers and just big dumps of large, you know, right. Amounts of foam. Uh, there's, you know, low expansion foam. Um, you know, there's monitors, uh, foam monitors for different scenarios. There's overhead, you know, deluge foam systems with sprinkler heads or, or different things. So it really, everything we know about fire protection and the different systems of fire protection, we can kind of add foam into that.

(09:01)
Right. To make a foam system. Yeah. Um, so we at Shar getting a lot of involved in a lot of different aspects of, of foam protection. Uh, a lot of it for us is more, um, you know, uh, rack storage, foam protection, um, or fuel oil storage, foam protection, that sort of thing. Right. Um, so, so not much hangers is more of the, we, we don't see a whole lot. I mean, there is a lot in the New England area, but, uh, Shar, we don't personally do a lot of Hi ex Yeah. Foam. Yeah. Uh, and you do see more of that outside of this territory anyway. Right. Um, but we do, like I said, it's more focused on fixed, uh, closed head systems, uh, or monitors and that sort of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we, so that's a good explanation. Essentially, it's flammable liquids, you know.

(09:45)
Yeah. We're putting outright, but now fires at, is there other applications for it, maybe for, it's mainly just slam the liquid out? I, I guess it's one of those things that, trying to dumb it down, it's, you know, if a lot of water is still not gonna do the trick. Right. Uh, if we add a little foam to it, it'll stick, it'll, it'll, it'll stick. I, I didn't mean to make it rhyme, but Sure. Um, yeah. And that's, that's a real dumb down explanation, but at the end of the day, really, that's, it's, it's a little bit more of a higher hazard. Sure. Um, but, you know, it needs a little bit more than just plain water. Right. Right. So now I know, um, from fire protection's been in the news, really the last, I don't know, I would say four to five years, but recently, uh, did some research the last few days.

(10:31)
But, uh, in my, my new home state of Connecticut, um, Bradley Airport, which is the main airport in Hartford, had a, uh, I don't know the cause of it, but it was a false discharge of a high, I think it was, I don't know if it was High Ex, but it was an aircraft, um, hanger. Hanger. And, uh, I think, I think I got word. It was like 50,000 gallons of foam, uh, water solution. Yeah. Probably three per high ex is 2%. It depends, but it depends. Yeah. But whatever three per say it's 3% percent. Yeah. You know, out of the 50,000 gallons of, of that solution, there's a lot of that went in right into the, um, what, what river is that? Right? By Hartford Framing, not the framing, I can't remember. I I know what you're Farmingdale River. I, yeah, I, I'm blanking the river in Connecticut.

(11:22)
Theri the main river through Hartford. Yes. Anyway, made it to the river. So there's been a lot of bad press in Connecticut and actually the governor's getting involved. Sure. Um, because firefighting foam obviously has evolved over the years. Yeah. It's just a lot of different chemical technology, um, including clean agent. Um, but there's a certain, uh, chemical or agent in, in certain foams that, uh, it's not the best for the environment, I guess. Is it? It's called P F O S. Right. P F O S and P oa. Do you know what that Yeah. So basically, um, and just a quick side note, the manufacturers are constantly, like you said, it's, it's evolving. Right. And all the manufacturers that foam concentrate have done a great job, not only trying to provide a concentrate that we can use to extinguish fires, but that are also following the EPA guidelines.

(12:15)
And that's what's always evolving is EPA coming out with something new that says, Hey, this, this isn't good, and that's not good. Right. And lets, let's change it. Um, so the big thing in, in the, the buzzword not getting too in the weeds, but the buzzword, P F O S P O, uh, C6 and c8, um, and a lot of the foam concentrates out there are C eights that involve P F O S and P oa. Okay. Um, which now the EPA is saying we can't do that anymore. So all the manufacturers are now switching to a C6 foam. Um, and that's really the big push at this point. Um, there is no, if you have ca currently, um, it, it's fine. Your grandfather, you don't have to remove it. Some states are looking to mandate the removal of it. Yep. Uh, but there's a lot of existing New York States one, are they?

(13:02)
Yeah. Cuz they, they had a big issue in New Newburgh, uh, Bradley, or, um, I have Bradley Airport, but it's be Bradley Airport based too in Newburgh, a big, uh, uh, you know, armed Forces terminal where they did a lot of firefighting testing. Sure. You know? Yeah. And spraying down the planes and everything. Yeah. And that leached into the Newburgh water source. Yeah. That's not good. It, it's, it's bad. Vice News did a kind of a crazy, uh, it was a little, a little one-sided, but, you know, I think, um, you know, there's an issue there. Nobody brought it up and it, a lot of people were getting sick, so. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, and it's definitely a concern. And like I said earlier, I think the manufacturers are doing a great job making the changes that they need to and adapting to the, the EPA guidelines.

(13:51)
Sure. Um, so that's kind of the big push lately is the, the c6. Right. Um, and in some cases we can't even get C8 foam anymore. You have to get c6. Which kind of enters into, as we get into the testing part of it, we can talk a little bit more about the details Sure. That concern that we have as contractors and and owners of those foam systems. Yeah, no, that's, that's good. I know, and I, I, I'd love to give, love to get, um, you know, I have some podcasts coming up with some other foam manufacturers that, you know, we'll get into the weeds more on, I was gonna, they what C6 is versus c8 and why not? Is there a c4, can we go to c4? I mean, why, why not go beyond and have, because EPAs, you know, they're pulling funding from that is, is it, you know, in 10 years.

(14:36)
Like, I have to go to c4. You know, is it, I don't know. Yeah. I, and that'll be great if you can get some, some guys that are more knowledgeable, cist, whatever me, then Yeah. I'm certainly not a, a foam chemist or anything from that perspective. I know the, I know enough to get myself in trouble, so. Yeah. Yeah. So on, on the testing side of foam. Yeah. Uh, transitioning to that, uh, you know, we deal with that added spec point with, you know, foam water, some foam water systems, you know, it's regulated by N FPA 25. Mm-hmm. , um, I'll let you go into that. Is there anything beyond NFPA 25? Is there different manufacturers that require different testing requirements? I think, well, yeah. I mean, all manufacturers have their own testing requirements, but 25 is, is a big push. And obviously that ties into as well n FPA 11 and 16.

(15:22)
And, and I know you had a podcast recently, I think it was Martin. Martin, yeah. You talked about the combining of those two. That's great. Standards into one. So that's gonna affect all of what we're talking about today as well. So that'll be interesting. But, um, at the end of the day, as a contractor, we have a lot of, uh, customers that have foam systems. And the ultimate piece of the puzzle to any foam system is the proportioner. And the proportioner is where the water comes in. The foam concentrate comes in, they mix the two, and you have a solution. Okay. So that proportioner needs to be tested. Right. On a typical system, and I'll kind of break it down real quick. If you have a bladder tank, let's say design, so you have foam concentrating in a bladder tank that's activated by water flow, it squeezes the bladder and pushes the concentrate into the proportioner and the water flow creates that solution.

(16:14)
Um, you have to physically flow. There's usually a test header after the proportioner, and you flow foam to collect the foam, verify its percentage, whether you're talking 3%, 1%, whatever it's designed to. Uh, so you have to take a sample, send it to a lab, and have 'em test that. How, how often is that per 25? Um, well, the proportioner itself yearly is where you wanna, and it does depend on whether it's high X or low X and that sort of thing as well. Okay. I know high X generators, I think you have to flow it through the generators every five years, I believe. Okay. Um, but you really want to test that proportioner on a yearly basis. Right. The problem is, is we're flowing full. Yep. What did we just talk about? Environmental concerns. Right. Disposal. We can't just take a hose, run it outside and dump it into the local Boston sewer drain.

(17:01)
Yeah. You know, that's, that's a problem. So what is entailed is a custo, a company, a customer would have to, um, hire a company to come out, collect the foam and dispose of it properly. Clean harbors is a common one. Yeah, yeah. That we use around here. Um, it's costly. It, it's, it's expensive. It's thousands of dollars. How much, how much foam are you talking about in that disposal and that test? Annual test? Well, you have to test the proportioner to whatever the design capability is. So let's say that system is designed to run 2000 gallons per minute. Right. You have to flow 2000 GPM through that proportioner to make sure you're getting that 3% or 1%. So you're gonna have to flow it for a little bit. So there's a, there's a lot of, when you say 2000 gallons a minute. Yeah. Let's, well, you know, let's just throwing numbers up there as an example.

(17:47)
It depends on the, the system itself. Right? Right. But you have to flow it at full capacity to make sure you're getting that right. You're getting that right proportion of foam. So not only, again, like I said earlier, you have to take a sample, send it to a lab to test it, but you also have to contain all that foam and dispose of it properly. So, so that's a tanker truck. It is. That's exactly what that is. Yeah. Wow. So it's expense. And you know, the problem that we are seeing in the contracting world is that customers just won't, won't test it. Won't test it. Yeah. And they don't want to, and nobody's, you know, I mean, we do our due diligence on the contracting end, but there's customers that just re flat out refuse and say, no, we're not gonna flow foam. We don't care, or just not gonna do it.

(18:27)
Wow. And that's a problem in our industry. Um, yeah. I wonder how with the insurance, I mean, cuz if you're having flammable liquids, you think you'd be insured by a pretty pretty high power or higher insurance insurance company. You think they would be, you know, it's installed, why not? Why not test it? But maybe there are risks on the environmental side. So Yeah. I, I know that's a concern on, I mean, we don't see, I don't see a lot of foam testing done that annual testing. Right. I never have at Viking, at Tyco and even, you know, people are doing it within inspect point, but Right. Um, and yeah, I think it needs to happen more. There's a lot of systems out there. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So, um, all right, that's good. A little more I learned on the TM side, so, um, yeah, it's definitely, do you, do you have an idea like of how many systems are getting not getting tested?

(19:22)
Nah, I, I mean, probably more than we, than, you know, then we wanna know Yeah. To be honest with you. But back to one of your other points was on the insurance side, one of the things that's driving some of these concerns is, uh, FM Global. Right. Um, because they, as you said, they do ensure a lot of these customers that we have. Right. And they are pushing back a little bit more, telling their customers, Hey, wait a minute, you know, we don't care how much it's gonna cost you, you need to properly test it. Sure. Because when that fire exists, and hopefully it doesn't, but if it does, then you need to make sure that the equipment works properly. Yeah. It's like being in New York City and doing a lot of foam there over the years. You know, you gotta 20th floor, you got a, a, a generator room, which is, you know, FM's pushing that.

(20:07)
So is, so is the F D N Y a little bit. So you have to put a small foam system in there mm-hmm. , but testing that annually. I don't know if that's getting done. And All right. If you test it annually, where are you putting all that foam on the 20th floor? Right. So I know some engineers are starting design, um, specialty just drain risers for foam that go out into a tanker truck. So like, engineers have to start thinking of, of disposal and that as well. And I don't think they really had on the ITM and, um, testing side of, of foam sometimes. Right. No, you're right. And to, to even add another, um, factor to this is we just talked earlier about, and c8, so if you, our customer has C eight foam currently, and we do a test, we're depleting that concentrate.

(20:55)
So now we have to refill that bladder tank with more foam to replenish what we tested. Okay. We can't dump C6 into a bladder tank that already has C eight in it. Oh. So now it's another cost impact that we say to the owner, listen, we'll test this, but now we gotta drain all the C eight outta here and refill with c6 because that's the only foam available today. Right. And to just add one more thing to that, the new c6, is it compatible with the proportioner and all the other devices that you have installed down the system? . So I'm not trying to create a, a chaos amongst people, but at the same time, these are all things that we really need to, so you gotta rip out the whole bladder tank and, and everything. I, because it's not listed, it's, it's, uh, a listing, it's something you have to evaluate.

(21:42)
And it is a listed compatibility thing. Yes. Wow. Yep. So the C 68 may be helping the environmental side, but it is causing a little bit of headache to our customers in some cases that, okay, now what do we do? Yeah. Especially the state. Like I know New York and probably Connecticut, it's gonna be there soon with, all right, you got all these foam systems if you want all that C eight ripped out. That's a, not only a huge cost, but it's a, it's a huge undertaking. Yeah. Um, and contractors and hjs should definitely be, you know, informed to that. Yep. So, uh, moving on to, to Fire Doss. So, uh, Todd came to me, I don't know, what's it, six months ago with the, this, this product. I was very intrigued, uh, with it, uh, it's a, I'll let you explain it, but in my, in my terms, it's, it's helping out with some of that inspection testing and maintenance testing.

(22:36)
I've talked to some phone professionals. It's got a lot of pros. There are, you know, a few cons to it, like, like anything else. Yep. But, um, how, why, so Fire Dos is a manufacturer. Why, what are you doing with it? Why you work for JC Castro? I do. So JC Canero is currently an authorized distributor nationwide of Fire DOS products. So, uh, we are their authorized distributor for all of North America, Canada, uh, and Mexico as well. So any fire DOS installations and so forth, we're typically involved whether we're physically buying the equipment, designing it, installing it, or just working with another contractor that has a customer that we are doing kind of more of a parts and smart scenario. Yep. And selling them the, the, and commissioning it and testing it for them. Okay. Um, so that's kind of our partnership, if you will, with Fire Dos.

(23:29)
They are a German company. Right. Uh, they've been around for a long time. This isn't, you know, a new product per se. Um, I've seen their stuff around for probably a good 10 years. Okay. But it's been a little slow to the, you know, north American, north market, market North. But again, with all these environmental concerns, we're seeing more, uh, need for it. Um, ultimately what it is, is fire DO is a proportioner. So it's a water driven proportioner, so if you can picture it, it, it looks similar to a fire pump. Um, and you have the water flow through the head section of it mm-hmm. , and that's driving a shaft. And that shaft as the water flow, um, whatever that water flow is, increases, decreases. Obviously it's changing the momentum of that shaft. Okay. Which in turn is turning the proportioner pump. Wow.

(24:15)
So it's all what No electrical aspects to it at all. Okay. And that's one of the biggest things. People look at it and say, oh, what do I need for, you know, I gotta increase my generator size. Nope, no electrical at all. It's completely water driven. Okay. So what it also does is it eliminates the bladder tank, the concentrate is gonna be held in an atmospheric tank. Yep. So now we've eliminated another maintenance issue of Oh yeah. With bladder removals and replacements. I ran into this and bladder rip. Yeah. You rip a bladder. Yeah. Good luck getting it outta there. Right. Um, so we have an atmospheric tank that the foam concentrate is held in. You have your water flow through the header of the, the proportioner, which turns that shaft and runs the proportion pump, pump and mixes. It pulls that concentrate in and mixes it into the water flow for your solution.

(25:01)
Mm-hmm. . So they're just like, it says it's directly proportioned between the water flow and the, the proportioner pump that creates, whether that's 3% or 1% on the outlet side mm-hmm. . Okay. So it's a little bit of a unique way to do it. Some of 'em use like a Venturi with the bladder tank and it's kind of drawing the foam concentrating. Right. They're literally pumping the concentrate into the water flow Yep. To create that, that outlet. But the key thing with, with what we can do with this is it has, the ability is a simple three-way valve. So in a normal solution or situation in a fire, it works, just the way I explained it. We show up on site to do testing. We come over to the, the device. There's a three-way valve that we turn that basically directs the concentrate line from entering into the water stream.

(25:53)
And instead of that, it loops it back around into the cons, the, uh, atmospheric tank. Oh. So now we're flowing water Yep. And we're flowing foam, but we're not mixing the two. Right, right. Right. There's gauges on the foam side Yep. Concentrate side and a a gauge reading the water flow. We do a little bit of math and we can determine what that Oh, really, percentage is, that's what, that was my question. How you determine the percentage, how you still have to mix 'em, but I guess if you're doing your proportion through the gauges. Correct. Ah, okay. So you have digital readouts of, of the, uh, concentrate, uh, flow, excuse me, and the water flow. And then again, it's just a quick math to determine what that percentage is. So are you, are you sending it back to the manufacturer anymore? No, no. That's, there are some scenarios where a customers will say, we'd like to flow a little foam and, and get it tested, send back, but it's not required.

(26:45)
Wow. This is a factory mutual, uh, approved device that FM loves this device, and Sure. And they are really pushing their customers because we don't have to create solutions. Sure. So we're not discharging any foam, we're not creating any environmental impact. Yep. Um, and it eliminates a lot of, uh, cost and, and again, just environmental concern of that long term. So is that, um, NFPA 25 kind of regulates some of that, right. Sending it back to manufacturer, all that. So that will have to get changed as well. It's, we're testing the proportioner Okay. And we're verifying the proportion rate of the concentrate. Okay. Or of the solution by doing that calculation. Gotcha. That's completely acceptable at this point. So, huh, that's great. Yeah. Um, so you eliminate bladder tank, it's huge. Yep. You eliminate any electric components through the, the, the pump driven. Is there any extra, I mean, I'm seeing a picture over here Yeah.

(27:43)
Of, of the actual proportioner. Sure. Seems, does seem like there's a lot of, you know, I know in a proportioner essentially, you know, the old, the, the standard way, just an orifice plate essentially. Yep. Right. Inside looks a bit more complicated because there's, there's pistons and there's probably inspection maintenance with those. Right. Greasing them and making sure they're, it, it looks scary, doesn't it? It does look scary, but it, it really, it is, it is a very, um, it really is a simple system. And, and we worked with other contractors throughout the US market that they do the same thing. They look at this and they get nervous. Sure. And we design it for 'em. We, we sell 'em the equipment, we go through the commissioning and they sit there and say, wow, this is a lot simpler than we thought. Yeah. Right. It really is.

(28:27)
Um, well then you, you, you hon you know your proportion at the time, which is correct. This is probably a lead time. I don't know how quick the manufacturers can get that back, but Right. Yeah. You know, you can give them a, a green check mark at that point. And that's exactly when we do commissioning, we, we do it at five different points, typically as far as five different flow rates. Right. Uh, low, high, and a couple in the middle. And we, we note all that, and we do it when we commission it in front of the owner and the FM reps and whoever needs to be there. Sure. And show 'em right there. This is what you're gonna get for an output of, uh, for the foam concentrate, you know, and that prove that we're gonna be within that 3% or 1% requirement. Right.

(29:07)
So. Right. Yeah. So, and application wise, it's really any application using phone in any application. Um, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. What, um, so I guess give me a little history of fire dos where they come from, you know, if you know that I don't know. Yeah. Well, again, they've been around for a long time. They are based outta Germany. They have, um, their main office is outside of Frankfurt, Germany. Okay. Uh, they have a couple other offices throughout Germany, and I know they have one in Poland. Um, they do a lot of, uh, maintenance themselves over in Europe. They have Okay. People out there that will do commissioning and so forth. And, and it is a popular product in, in, you know, Europe Sure. And so forth. And, and they've been very successful there. Um, you know, they got into the market here in the us again, I don't, don't quote me, I wanna say probably about 10 years ago.

(29:59)
Yep. They've kind of tried different things as far as, uh, it being more, um, prominent here. Um, I will say that they do have plans, uh, in the very near future of, of opening up shop here. Oh, wow. Great. Uh, so they are gonna be a little bit more readily accessible and so forth. Sure. Um, they've been great to work with. We have a great partnership with them. Yeah. Um, you know, these devices, again, they're built over there. They're German made. Yeah. You know, uh, which it's a workhorse. Yeah, sure. It's, it, it's certainly, uh, very well made the BMW engine looks like. Yeah. maybe more like an Audi . All right. All right. All right. Um, but yeah, I mean, their history, they do do a lot of foam monitoring as well. Uh, they have foam monitors. They do a lot of, uh, brigade trucks where they'll put a fire, do right on a, uh, a fire brigade trucker where they can go and just turn a handle and go from 1% to 3%, and they can manually change that, um, through this device.

(30:56)
So it's not just fixed fix systems. Uh, we personally are only using it in fixed foam systems, but it really is adaptable to other options. Uh, trailers, uh, again, I see a future for locally with airports and stuff. Right. Trailers with the fire dos. Yep. And then monitors to, uh, protect tank, tank farms and that sort of thing. So Yeah. Mobile aircraft units or whatever. Exactly. Yep. So I see VDS approval, FM approval. How is, what's, what's the UL listing? How does all the listings work? Because I know that's always been confusing and a foam system, bladder tank being listed with the foam being listed with the discharge devices, whether it's heads, monitors, uh, I don't know. Is monitors included in that? I'm not sure. Is the proportioner in that? Yes. It, it is. And, and, you know, so without naming specific manufacturers, but you're right, the, the concentrate itself, when X manufacturer creates a concentrate, they have to test it with x discharge devices, whether it's a monitor or Sure.

(32:00)
A sprinkler head. Yep. Um, a nozzle, whatever that case may be. So it is directly listed as that, that group and that proportioner in the middle does encompass all that. Um, so that proportioner has to be listed with the concentrate to make sure that it is, so everything has to be listed together essentially. Correct. Okay. Correct. But the key really is the concentrate itself with the discharge devices because, you know, whether you use a Firehouse Proportioner or another proportioner, the outlet is a certain percentage Yeah. Of a mixture. Right. So it's really how is the discharge device interact with that mixture that you pushing and Yeah. What kind of foam blanket does it create Exactly like that. Yeah. Yep. So yeah, so there's definitely things to consider from that perspective. Fire dos. Um, we've actually, personally, we've used a multiple number of foam manufacturers, whether it's Berg or Ansel or Viking, um, you know, Buckeye National Foam, I'll mention 'em all just to be be fair, a Buckeye.

(32:57)
Uh, yes. Yes. Oh, yeah, sorry. So we, sorry. Buckeye . So we've used, um, a, a couple of those different manufacturers and, you know, when we design it, it's important to know what concentrate, what we're using, because all the concentrates do provide different viscosity levels and that sort of thing. So we need to make sure that the flow works properly. Sure. Through the fire do so. Yeah. So, yeah. So there's a lot, lot to it, but it's still a simplified system, if that makes any sense. So, yeah. No, I, I I I How many installations, you know, do you have, uh, in the us O r Uh, let's see. Um, we've, we've had the ability to work with a specific customer Sure. That is now going worldwide, where they're changing all their, they're pulling out all their bladder tanks, they're pulling out all their foam proportioner and installing a fire do Wow.

(33:46)
Uh, with a atmospheric tank. So we're doing that here locally in the New England area Yep. As well as, um, countrywide and even some work over, over in Europe as well. Um, but to answer your question more directly, I wanna say last year for that particular customer alone, we did about four fire dos last year, and then we did, um, uh, two others from another, you know, through other avenues right. Outside of that customer. So I think we did five or six last year. Okay. And, uh, on track this year, we have I think three more to do before the end of this year. So we, we got a lot, uh, a lot going on. That's good. Yeah. That's good. I mean, being a, a distributor in North America is probably, yeah. There's a lot of farm systems out there. It it is. And, and, you know, JC Charro is a Boston based company Sure.

(34:32)
And family owned still by a great family. And, you know, this is really expanding our capabilities outside of the New England territory. And I think when we first started doing this, and we got a job in California to install a fire, do that, you know, the, the raro is all the brothers kind of sat there going, wow, this could really take off. This is awesome. And, and so it's exciting for the company as a whole to help us expand outside of New England. Gotcha. So what am we doing work in Chicago, California, all the systems. Are you, uh, are you doing the maintenance on 'em or is that the local contractor that's doing them, or? Right now we're typically working with the local contractor. Okay. Um, but we do have agreements with certain customers that they want us involved in, and either we're gonna subcontract it to a local contractor, or we do have guys that we can send out and put boots on the ground and do the Gotcha.

(35:18)
Do the commissioning as well. So it depends on the situation. You gotta get 'em ready using the right software though, when they're doing the inspection. Yeah. You know, of course, yes. The, the correct software, , what was that called again? ? Uh, you know what it's, um, and Spec point of course, I, I won't, oh, yeah. I won't get into that right now. Not, we'll, we'll do an inspect point only podcast here soon. Okay. Got some fun stuff coming out. Um, so is anything else you wanna discuss, uh, on the, on the fire do side? No, I think, uh, again, there's not a whole lot to it, so hopefully I was able to explain a little bit of the, the background of it and, and how it works. It's, um, definitely something I think everybody in the industry that is involved in FOAM is going to see or hear about more often.

(36:02)
Sure. Um, and, uh, you know, we hear as professionals and authorized distributors, I'll be happy to help answer any further questions or discuss any details with anybody, uh, yeah. You know, after the fact. Yeah. I'll, uh, at the end, I'll, I'll, uh, I'll give you, give you some time to give your contact out and Sure. Where, where we can find you. One, uh, I know we didn't discuss this, but, uh, what's your role with fssa? I know you're all over social media with, with that, and like trying to promote is, I don't know. Do you have a role at F ssa? So FSSA, by the way, is Fire, uh, suppression Systems Association. That's correct, yeah. One of the, the elite, um, associations out there for special hazards and, and other type of systems, obviously. Yeah. It's a great group of contractors. Um, I've been involved with FSSA for probably about eight years now.

(36:51)
Um, I do sit on the board of directors Oh, okay. For fssa, uh, as well as being the chair of the marketing committee, um, which includes our webinar committee and a whole bunch of other stuff. We've grown an astronomical amount over the last, you know, three, four years, uh, with marketing and so forth. And, uh, it's a great group of, of people and, and I truly enjoy being involved, so. Oh, good. Yeah. Yeah. Hopefully, uh, I get to go to, I think next year's conference is in Florida again, right? It is. Yep. I'm gonna try to get, it's not Kissemee, but how do they say it? Kissemee. Kissemee. Thank you. Kissemee Florida. Yeah. So Kissemee Florida next, uh, February. Oh, nice. Great, great show. Yep. All right. Um, well, that kind of wraps it up on the, on the fire dust stuff, so obviously I, I have to go to little quick response round, which, uh, little few questions for you here and, uh, we'll kind of get outta here.

(37:42)
So, okay. Um, I'm gonna, Todd doesn't know anything, I'm good about to ask him right now, so you're making me nervous. Sure. Um, Todd, Todd is a, uh, you know, resident of, uh, Pinehurst, North Carolina, one of, uh, the best places on earth for, for golf, which is dear near and dear to my heart. Um, what is your, there's a lot of courses down. What, what's your favorite course? Wow. Um, I would have to say, um, gosh, there's a lot of great courses down there. You're right. Um, if I, Pinehurst themselves has nine courses right now, uh, as well as an executive par three, which we, we got the opportunity to play. Um, but I would say my favorite course is really not any of the Pinehurst courses. I would say it's, uh, mid Pines Mid Yeah. Which is part of, uh, mid Pines and Pine, uh, needles.

(38:38)
Okay. Are both owned by the Kirk Bell family. Okay. Uh, which, uh, Peggy Kirk Bell was, uh, public, public courses. No, they're, they're private. Um, but the Women's US Open has been at Pine Needles, uh Oh, nice. A couple times in the past. And, uh, both those courses really pine needles and Mid Pines are, I think the cradle's the best course there. The Cradle is a lot. Cradle is a nine hole, like, there's nothing over 120 yards executive course. There is a, uh, there's a stationary beer cart on there with pumping music. Yeah. So that, you know, that's, that's my style. It is fun. It is fun. And if I were to pick one out of the nine courses that Pinehurst has, um, as much as I love number two, I have had the ability to play it only once in the 13 years I've lived there.

(39:21)
But it was a beautiful course, but number four is probably my favorite, and they just redid it, which I have not played it since they've redone it. Well, the amateur, the, that's is on number two and number four this week there, correct? Correct. Starts actually starts today. Yeah. Um, all right. I know we got golf side checked there. Sorry, . Um, we could do that all day. So I know we've talked about like, this transition from CA to C6 and, and environmental testing. Um, you do a lot of special hazards, quotations for clean agent water mis the whole thing. Yep. Um, what do you quote on Clean Agent? I'm on, on the chemical side, FM 200. Uh, obviously you can't quote ha line anymore, or Novak, what do you, what do you, what do you roll with when you go in? Or do you go by the spec or Yeah, we have, we have options.

(40:11)
Sure. Uh, at we deal with a couple different manufacturers that provide different options for us. We can quote, um, design an installation of FM 200 systems, nok 1230, uh, a Carro. Um, so we have kind of the gambit of those options. What do you prefer, ? You gonna pay me an Accord? I, yeah, I am. I am. Um, you know, those engineers do a great job specifying different products and, and we do try to follow the specifications Okay. Uh, to the best of our ability. But no, in all, all honesty, and I'll be completely honest, they just came up earlier this week, a customer, it's a small room, and they said, you know what? We know there's a couple different options. Price 'em all. Okay. And it was a small enough room that price-wise, they all kind of came in. Sure. You know, within reason, within a couple hundred bucks of each other, when you get into the larger systems, you see a different, a a bigger impact of cost.

(41:04)
Yep. But then there's the questions of, okay, well we've been talking about environmental with foam. Right. There's some similar conversations with correct clean agents as environmental, what's the most environmentally friendly. Right. Um, but every manufacturer has different options too, as far as tank sizes Sure. And everything. So, um, you know, I I, I know I've heard it in some of your other podcasts. It depends. What's that? know, I'm only supposed to use that once I, I was, I was trying to corn you and stuff in there, so . Um, yeah, because I always, you know, and certain manufacturers say certain things, so, you know what, it's tough to, to get a straight answer a lot of times. Yeah. On, on, uh, what's better and why it's better. Um, I, anyway, I'll I'll say the nfpa uh, 2001, which talks about clean agents is pretty clear on the environmental aspects of, of all those agents.

(41:56)
Oh, they do? Okay. That's good. So you can break it down. And everybody's got charts that read what the environmental impact is based on breakdown, global warming and, and, and, um, and that sort of thing. So it, the, the information is there. Yeah. No, it's gonna look at it and make a determination from you think other maybe, maybe form will get there someday where they can give that breakdown. Yeah. That's actually, that's a great thought process. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, we mentioned water mist. Yeah. You do, you do a lot of install on Water mist? Well, we do a fair amount. Yeah. Why is it not being used? Is it not being used? Yeah, yeah. Um, it it's application specific. Yeah. Um, and it is cost, it's cost, you know, whether we're talking high pressure Yeah. Or low pressure, uh, hybrid systems. Sure, sure. I know, I think you had a, a podcast talking about Yeah.

(42:43)
Some hybrid systems, I think, was that Sean Mullen? I believe Sean Mullen, yeah. Talked about that. And we do a lot of that. We do a lot of hybrid, uh, water miss systems, and I mean, it's a good combination. Um, I have, I'll compare, I, we have three large projects right now. Um, one of 'em has a hybrid water miss system in the data center. The other one has a clean agent system in the data center. In the same, we're talking about, you know, two similar applications with two totally different, uh, solutions. Um, you know, it goes back to the owner and the engineer and the discussions that occur prior to, to make that determination. That's good. You know, having a tool belt of all that's is helpful. Sure. All right. Last question here. Um, who is your sa favorite superhero?

(43:35)
Wow. Favorite superhero? You gonna ask me why after that too? ? Well, I mean, so I'm gonna post a video along with this. Okay. But, uh, Todd's big in Fssa . He, he, uh, I, I'm watching, and John Lawler is great. He, he did a great job of promoting F SSA and some of the, uh, video promotions that he did. But I'm watching it one day and all of a sudden this Spider-Man character comes out on the screen and it needed to be a little tighter suit, by the way, you know? Well, it was made for John Lawler, it was not made for me. Okay. And I say that in all pleasantness to, to John. I love him dearly. So all of a sudden St. Spiderman's talking and up comes his mask and it's Todd. Yeah. I was the super, the Spider-Man superhero. So yeah.

(44:24)
That's your favorite. That I'll, I'll go with Spider-Man. How's that? Okay. Because it Spidey senses so well, and John LOLer still calls me Spidey when he says, does he really? Oh, that's great. Yeah. That's great. Well, um, this has been fun. Uh, you know, talking about this, I've been meaning to, you know, interesting, very interesting. Um, uh, new technology on inspection, testing and maintenance, which Right. With what I'm in, in, in inspect points lined with. So, um, do you got anything to say? Wanna get any message out there and, you know, feel free to give your contact and social media and all that? Yeah, no, I mean, this has, this has been fun. Um, I'm sure there's a million things that I probably should have mentioned that I didn't. Um, but, you know, we don't have a couple hours to, to go through things. But, um, yeah, no, I appreciate the opportunity that, that, and, um, you know, if anybody does have any additional questions on fire dos or foam systems or clean agent systems that I can support and help out with, they'd be happy to, to reach out to me.

(45:22)
You can find me on LinkedIn and, uh, Todd Stevens or tStevens@raro.com. Um, but yeah, uh, definitely reach out to us. I think you're gonna see a lot more of the fire dos and, and they're a great company and we're excited to continue to grow, um, their base here in, in the US market. So maybe they'll ship me to Germany one of these days. Huh? I'm heading there in a couple weeks, actually, actually. Oh, nice. Yeah, I haven't been over there yet. So we're gonna do some training over there in Germany. It's in September, which, you know, for those who don't know, that's actually Octoberfest starts Octoberfest. Yeah. So we'll be there at that time on time. Yeah. Well, thanks Todd. And, uh, thank you. We'll see everybody soon.

Drew Slocum: (45:59):

This has been episode 11 of the Fire Protection Podcast, powered by Inspect point. I wanted to thank my guest again, Todd Stevens. Todd is a wealth of knowledge in the special hazards industry, and he's got a lot going for 'em moving forward with Fire Dos and some of the other, uh, special hazards options that they do have at JC Canister. So again, great podcast. Wanna hear your feedback on Fire Protection foam. Uh, eventually we're gonna get a, a foam manufacturer onto here to, to really talk about the, the chemical makeup and what is really going on, uh, with the fire protection foam and how, how it is affecting the environment, uh, in certain SI situations. So check us out, inspect point.com, the Fire Protection Podcast, and look forward to hear from you soon.