How can a podcast help an agency's new business strategy? with Nathan Anibaba

Transcript:

Jenny 00:03
So today I'm delighted to welcome Nathan Anibaba to the show. He is founder, managing director and host of the very popular Agency Dealmasters, which is probably one of the most popular B2B podcasts for both agencies and brands. And I was super impressed when I found the podcast, because he's had guests, including people like Blair Enns the author of 'Win Without Pitching' and 'Pricing Creativity', and also the New York Times best selling author Greg McKeown, and his book was 'Essentialism', and many, many more guests. So super impressive Nathan. I know you're usually more kind of comfortable this side of the mic, but today, it's my turn. So Nathan, welcome to the show.

Nathan 00:49
Thank you very much, Jenny. Very scary, being on this side of the mic. I'm going to do my best to answer your questions. I'm usually the one asking the questions. So let's see how this goes.

Jenny 01:01
Okay, so listen, let's start off by, could you spend a couple of minutes just talking about you, your background and actually what you do now? Who are you helping and how?

Nathan 01:12
Great questions. So we help agency owners create and run podcasts to generate new leads, win new business and build their brands. B2B, podcasting is massively underutilised as a way of starting new conversations with prospects that you want to speak to, as a way of building relationships with existing customers.

People think that podcasting is saturated because there are 2 million podcasts out there. But I'm here to say that there is still a lot of opportunity in podcasting, especially in the niches, which is where the opportunities lie. And if you're selling a high ticket, high value item, creating a podcast, creating a show, and using that as your entry point into a brand is massively underutilised

and that's what we help brands and agencies to do. As far as my background is concerned, sales is my background really so coming out of university selling water coolers at Nestle water powwow over the phone to people who didn't really want to speak to me to be honest. And then I've sold recruitment, I say sold, I've never really done a very good job doing these things, I was very good at getting the job, sales jobs, I was never good at really keeping them! And I've sold all sorts of things from graduate recruitment, advertising to graduate recruitment, to you know, magazine advertising in financial sort of magazines. But I only really started getting good at sales, I would say, when I moved into the agency world, in around 2012, where I worked, I was I became sort of a sales executive for inbound marketing agency called Tomorrow People. And I worked there on the phones, following up with inbound leads, and converting people who have downloaded content and got very used to talking to people about the value, the reason why they had engaged in a piece of content. And I was very fortunate to sort of learn under an amazing Sales Director, Alison Norman, who was the managing director there at the time, who had come from a sales background, a software SaaS background, and I just learned how to sell high value consultatively through his tutelage over the next five years, the agency grew pretty quickly from about four or five people when I joined upwards to about 50 people. So I sort of went through that journey and sort of saw what that growth of an agency was like. And then I started having conversation with other agencies, who I didn't know, struggled when it came to sales, I thought, all agencies were like us, who were able to convert two out of three deals online, nine out of 10, our conversion rate was really, really good because we had this amazing sales process that he'd taken from SaaS, the SaaS B2B world and brought that into the agency land. I just thought that was table stakes for agencies until I started meeting other agency owners who were like, Hmm, we don't convert that high at all or We don't get that sort of success in new business pitches. In fact, we don't do any sort of direct outbound. We were very active and we would react to inbound calls and RFPs and all the rest of it, which is good when it comes but it's not very good if you don't have any inbound calls coming. So you have to have a combination of kind of being proactive and being reactive at the same time. And that's when I sort of started reaching out to agencies offering consultancy sales services, did that for a couple of years, and then decided, Hmm, maybe I could get introduced to larger agencies if I started a podcast. If I start a podcast, I can invite them on the show. We can talk about sales and that might lead to work, as a very loose plan a very, very loose plan. Very hard to find the first guests everyone said no. Until by accident Kingpin Communications a really big B2B tech agency in London said yes, completely accidentally, he thought he was saying yes to something else. That's another story completely, recorded the interview and then we had then something to go out to other people with and had a very clear idea about what kind of podcast it would be about - it would be about sales and sales only and new business. But then agency owners came on the show and they wanted to talk about culture, and hiring and profitability and all the things I had no clue about Jenny, I had no clue about any of these things, but very quickly had to learn. And, 140 episodes later we've interviewed as you said, not only marketing authors, agency owners, but b2b brand marketeers and kind of everyone else in between. Anyone that sort of is responsible or touches the how agencies grow, mature, how they professionalise, how they win new business, how they build culture, that is able to attract talent, how they, how they run successful, profitable agencies in a nutshell, and we learn from the best and the brightest, all over the world. And I've been just been fortunate to have free consultancy over the last two and a half years to give me the opportunity and build great relationships off the back of it and it's created, it's generated a business off the back of it, which I had no idea would materialise. And that process is the same process that I'm in now, using it with my clients. I'm saying right guys use this podcast as a vehicle to open new opportunities with huge brands that you would never really get the opportunity to be able to speak to and interact with. We've got an opportunity on the table right now with a huge bank. And that's come directly off the back of having a guest on the show. And yeah, so podcasting is massively underutilised. And I'm banging the podcast drum, Jenny!

Jenny 07:40
I'm glad you are. This is fascinating, though, then is the first time I've heard this. So throughout that 140 episode journey, your whole kind of, it was an education in itself. So you were learning from the best. And this in your mind was changing the way you thought about what business you were going to ultimately offer. So you started out offering sort of sales consultancy. And then now, so it's morphed through your journey. And now are you dedicated to helping agencies and brands with podcasting is that is that your niche now or you're still...?

Nathan 08:16
That's the niche. The niche is helping agencies and brands win business, using podcasting as the vehicle as the entry point. I'm fortunate because my background is B2B sales. And my background is content marketing and thought leadership. So I'm using the skills that I've developed, working in agencies that have done that, to be able to create podcasts that are able to appeal to senior decision makers. So it's a podcast that is,

the secret to podcasting is, it needs to be educational, so people need to come away from it learning something, it needs to be entertaining and it needs to be fun. If you can do those three things, that's the magic trisector. But the most important one, especially for senior decision makers is that they have to know that when they spend their time listening to your show, they're going to come out of it better off, they're going to learn something, they're going to improve, they're going to be better, they're going to be able to implement something in their business as a result of it.

So number one is the product has to be credible, and it needs to be worthy of their time. And that comes from getting amazing guests, (God knows why you got me on the show Jenny), but that comes from getting really good guests, the best guests that you can find, asking good questions and then getting out of the way and then letting the guests do the work. And we've been fortunate to build a brand accidentally using that process, but because I've got a background in B2B sales and content marketing and thought leadership, we kind of understand how to create the sort of content that will be appealing to senior decision makers.

Jenny 10:10
So this is brilliant. So can you share some examples of creative agencies who have done this successfully? Because I'm sure there are agency owners listening or even agency account managers, anyone working in an agency space thinking, maybe this is a strategy for us? Maybe this is something that we could invest time in, if they haven't already. So who have you seen doing this really, really well?

Nathan 10:36
So there's an agency called Red-Fern Media, who specialise in manufacturing. So they made the shift to focusing on manufacturing, the manufacturing niche, probably relatively recently, about 18 months ago. Before then they were sort of one of a generalist agency, they had a couple of manufacturing clients, but they've worked with an external consultant, Robert Leaf, I think his name is, who said, 'Look, you need to specialise' and we know this, right. If you listen to anything Blair Enns says, or any of the agency consultants out there, specialising is the thing to do. And so they've gone super deep into manufacturing into the manufacturing niche. And they've said, right, we want to have a podcast that's all about manufacturing, it's all about the people who have come up with an idea to create something new in the worlds who are able to create the processes, the Lean, the Six Sigma who are the people behind some of the best manufacturing processes and businesses in the country. And they've been able to, they've only recently sort of started on their journey, but already, they've had maybe seven or eight episodes out there already, but already, they've started a handful of conversations with really big manufacturers. It would have been so difficult to get on their radar in any other way. How else are you going to do it? Are you going to use email, LinkedIn, you're getting a million different messages on that platform? Events are off the table now, because we're all in this pandemic, how else are you going to get an audience with the CEO or the managing director of a large manufacturing organisation? If not, for inviting them onto a show, developing a relationship with them, asking them good questions, building rapport, demonstrating expertise. And I'm not saying that that should be, you don't want to do it in a way that is sort of crass or overly salesy because no one wants to be sold to in that way. You want to build a relationship, you want to start a relationship. And Red-Fern Media have done that, even though it's really early days, have done that really, really well.

Jenny 13:11
Okay, so this is fantastic. So is it important to really be a specialist agency for the podcast to be successful? Or would it equally work well if you are narrow in a certain kind of specialism? Say that I'm, an app development agency? You know, we go deep in apps, would it have worked equally as well? Do you think? So that's the first question.

Nathan 13:37
Yeah. I think that when it comes to podcasting, the nicher you are the better. So I don't think it matters whether or not you're an agency that specialises in a niche. I think you can be a generalist agency, but your podcast needs to be niche in order for your podcast to stand out. Because how are you going to attract new listeners and an audience to the show, are going to create a marketing podcast? There are million different marketing podcasts, generalist marketing podcasts, but you want to create a marketing podcast that is about app development, and the trends that are happening in Asia in 2021. You know what I mean? You need something that really is going to stand out. And for those people that app development in Asia this year is crucial, you are going to stand out. Why would they listen to anything else, but that?

Jenny 14:35
There's a real strong strategic part, first of all, to get your angle right on the podcast, on the theme. And also, do you think that, you said that, inviting the type of customer that you want to work with ultimately, is a brilliant way to develop that relationship, to understand their specialist area of expertise and I suppose what happens after that typically? Like you invite the guest and generally the door is open because the CEO is flattered that he's been asked? How does that work?

Nathan 15:13
So, you mean, how does it then convert into an opportunity or business? So this is where you want to be a little bit careful, because nobody wants to be invited on to a show, or given an opportunity only to realise that actually, it's a secret way of selling to me or trying to get some new business. But ultimately, that's what we're all trying to do. It's the way that you go about then doing that. So the clients that I've been working with so far, we haven't proactively gone back to any of the guests on the show to say, Hey, how about a new website? We haven't done that. Those conversations have happened organically, they've come back to us and actually, so you guys, so you do, so, in Fox's case, for instance, 'Oh, so you helped put on virtual events in COVID? So we're putting on a virtual event at the moment. But we've had a couple of problems. Is that the kind of thing that you guys can do?' I think it comes back to, again, one of the reasons why the podcast is so good is because in sales, it's all about demonstrating your credibility and demonstrating your expertise by the questions that you ask, how consultative you are, how thoughtful you are about the client's business and their challenges and off the back of that the client responds. The client says, actually, this is someone that understands my business, understands where I am, knows my context, actually knows a little bit more about it than me, actually about one or two things. Maybe I should ask him a couple of questions about how to do this right. So there's a part of the podcasting process, which is about understanding, sales and how to sell because I guess that's one of the reasons why I've been able to take to podcasting quite easily. I say easily, it's been really hard journey. But one of the reasons why podcasting has kind of played to my skill set is because I'm good at asking questions. As a salesperson, that's what you do, that is your that's your main skill set. So how you ask consultative, thoughtful questions that probe, that elicit a response that gets the client thinking, 'Hmm, I actually don't know the answer to that question. Maybe this person does'. Do you know what I mean?

Asking questions is so fundamental in sales, you know this. But when you ask a question, and someone doesn't know the answer to the question, they assume that you do, even if you don't know the answer to the question, but they assume that you do, number one. Number two, it demonstrates, no one likes to be told anything, regardless of how knowledgeable someone is, but by asking a question, demonstrates your expertise. It tells someone that you know what you're talking about, without telling them that you know what you're talking about. So question asking does so many things and the art of a great podcast is asking great questions.

Jenny 18:33
This is making so much sense now, because when I listen to your episodes, I can see you are demonstrating your knowledge of sales. You throw in examples, that kind of build on the story that your guest is telling. So it makes total sense. And I was wondering why you were so proficient in the B2B selling space? And, obviously now I know Anthony Iannarino's been on a couple of times, as well and he's like a sales guru, so yeah, this is making total sense now. And so this is brilliant. So if an agency is listening to this thinking, wow, okay, this is something definitely that we could explore, because we have quite a niche, we understand who our customer is. If they came to you and said, Nathan, we're in your hands, help us go through this process, because we can see that the investment would be something, investing, our time in this area will be well spent. Where do you start? How do you start working with a company from the start of the thought about having a podcast?

Nathan 19:41
Well, the first thing is about being, as you said, really clear on who your customer is, and what purpose the podcast would serve in their lives. Why would they listen to this? What value are they going to get from this show? Based on that, once you've understood, okay, I want to work with large manufacturers in the northeast, let's say. And the reason why they will listen to the show is because we'll have other large manufacturers in the northeast talking about, you know, because we know that these people like to learn from from each other, they'd like to learn from their peers. They're quite well networked anyway but because of COVID, they're not been able to maybe get to as many events as they would like to, let's find out who are the really interesting people that have great stories to tell, that have built successful enterprises themselves, that other large manufacturers in the northeast would like to hear from. So it's being really clear on, like any other sort of marketing strategy right, it's who is the target audience, what is the value proposition, what is the reason why they would listen to your show? How do we actually get this podcast in front of them? And then how do we make it predictable? You know, the, the other reason I think that people shy away from podcasts is because they know that it's a commitment, and it is a commitment, it's not something you can just turn on and go, 'Okay, I'm done with that now', and turn it off. Once you start it, you need to stick with it. And the vast majority of those 2 million podcasts that I talked about earlier, they only had about 10 episodes. So people get to about 10 episodes and realise, actually, this is harder than I thought it was. Let me stop this. So the vast majority of podcasts that are out there, and they're gaining audiences and they're able to grow is because they've got some regularity. And you know, the regularity thing is a is a huge thing, whether it's once a week or twice a month, or once a month, which I disagree that you should do that I think it's a bit too far away, but the regularity is important, because it shows people that you show up, you turn up and there's a huge amount of trust and credibility that is communicated through being regular and showing up on time, every time. Anthony Iannarino is great with that with his Sunday newsletter, which you and I geeked out over a couple of weeks ago, he has had this Sunday newsletter for years, come rain or shine. You know Sunday morning in your inbox Anthony Iannarino has a new newsletter for you. And it's great content. It's fantastic content. And so through that process you're like, Oh my God, Anthony Iannarino, he's trustworthy, he's credible, he shows up, there are so many things that you infer from being predictable in that way. And so that's a huge thing when it comes to podcasting that I've been really trying to stick to as much as possible. Once a week, every Tuesday, a new episode comes out, and it's hard. But it's something that I think has helped build the audience. And I forget the question now.

Jenny 23:27
It's about the process. This is fantastic. And I can see why you're well placed to offer that advice. Because your background is sales, agency sales, you understand, get the audience right, understand why they would listen, speak, be committed. And then what's later, what are the other things to consider? You know, you said before, a month is a little bit too infrequent. What do you think the optimum kind of frequency is? And also length? And does it have to be, is it better to have guests or can you do some solo episodes? What's your views on that?

Nathan 24:05
Good, good point. So the first question was regularity. Yeah, I would say once a month is too infrequent. I think there's so much content out there that if you allow a month between episodes, people forget you really quickly, and then replace it with something else. And you want to kind of become that go to, you know, you want to always have episodes in there that people fit you into their routine in some way. In some way, they're like, okay, on Tuesdays, I go for a walk between this time and this time, I'm gonna listen to agency account skill, you know what I mean? Like you're fitted into their day, or their week in some way, shape, or form. And I think every month, it's harder to do that. So I would say a minimum twice a month. So every two weeks release an episode at a minimum. If you can do once a week even better. Length wise, it comes down to your audience and who you're targeting and the level of seniority. You know, senior people don't have a lot of time, I've been criticised a couple of times, for having a podcast that's over an hour long, every week. But you know, we have Joe Rogan, who has three hour episodes. And I think the people that want to stay around and listen to the entire show can, and others that want to get 20 minutes half an hour out of it can also get what they want to get from it as well. For us, a shorter 20 minute show wouldn't work, just because of the format of what we're going for. They're long form deep interviews with thought leaders, it's very hard to get under the under the skin of someone like that in 20 minutes. However, I do know that shorter form episodes for the podcast do tend to work quite well, because it fits into a decision makers schedule. So again, it comes back down to who is the persona that you're going after? And what are their problems and pains? And how do you help solve them with this format, this new format, this new content that you're creating?

Jenny 26:18
And would you say that putting in some solo episodes where you're sharing something might be still relevant? Or is it? I'm probably getting a bit granular here, but I'm just...

Nathan 26:30
This is this is good. I think that again, it comes back down to the persona targeting. But having a show, so our show for instance, it's one on one guests, one on one interviews, long form with a single guest. There are episodes, there are podcasts I listen to whereby you never really know what you're going to get, it's like it's roulette. And I think that's fun and interesting, because you're like, actually, I'm going to be surprised by the content this week. It may be one person that they interview, it may be a couple it may be, but I think, and this is just I don't have any evidence or data to support this, but I think that the favourite episode, the podcast that people like to listen to, are the ones that have a predictable structure that people are used to, or get used to. So if you are going to have an episode where it's just you, or you and somebody else, bake that into the predictability of it, don't do it just as you know, as a random thing, because people could get turned off by the fact that they're looking forward to a particular format and then suddenly, you're presenting something else. But if they know that it's what you do, it's what the show does, it's how the show is structured, then I think you have a better chance of, you know, making it stick. I don't have any data to support that. That's just my anecdotal, from listening to podcasts myself over the years. But I don't know, what do you what do you think on that Jenny?

Jenny 28:21
I feel the same. I mean, everything that you've shared so far I agree with and I was just curious if there's any other kind of things that you've seen where people get it wrong with podcasting. You've mentioned quite a few like talking over someone, not kind of taking the time to choose the right guests. Maybe not being narrow enough, not being informative enough, because I'm the same, I want to listen to a podcast and come away with some tips. You know, just little nuggets of wisdom. I learn at least one thing from every podcast I listen to, or even if it just brings something top of mind that you hadn't thought about for a while. So what other kind of things do you think happen where people get it wrong?

Nathan 29:05
Sometimes they try and be the star of the show, the host. That's a big No, No. You know, you're excellent at this Jenny. Your show, it's so, you do such a great job introducing the guests, setting the scene, letting us know why we should be listening to this person what they're all about. And then you let them do their thing. And then you jump in every now and again with a question to prod and let them allow them to open up. And then you you allow them to do their thing. And that's such, it's very hard to do when you are as knowledgeable as you are Jenny and know as much as you, because it's very easy, because

I've listened to a lot of podcasts and I'm sure you have as well where the host is extremely knowledgeable and they've got amazing experience and they can't wait to tell you all about their experience. And it's like, Okay, well, great, but I'm here to listen to the guests, so can we hear the guest. And I think the best interviewers, the best hosts are the ones that are able to ask the question, to be able to still demonstrate their expertise, but do it in a way that allows the guest to shine. Because at the end of the day, if the guest shines, they make the interview better. They make the podcast, the episode better. They are more likely to share it off the back of it, because they're like, I love this episode, I want to tell the world about it. So there's so much value in being a good facilitator of a conversation without, you know, dominating it. It's hard to do. It's not easy.

Jenny 30:54
It's not and actually, I feel quite uncomfortable sometimes listening to interviewers who keep butting in all the time, it's just like oh let the poor guy finish. So I agree with you, I think, my God, I've learnt a lot from you, Nathan, because, I listened to quite a few episodes before I came on the show, and I just thought, wow, this guy's so good. Like, I haven't listened to someone that's quite so good. And now, you're telling me your story I can see why. Where do you see this going in the future Nathan, is this saturated because I know that's what maybe some people are thinking? So where do you see podcasting going?

Nathan 31:33
Hmm. I mean, look, podcasting's been around for a very long time. It's only in the last couple of years that it seems to have gone mainstream. But back to like 2004/ 2005 people were, Kara Swisher and people like that were podcasting. And I think there's always going to be space for creating great thought leadership content that people are into, whatever form that takes, whether that is video, or audio, or texts, or what have you there's always going to be a need for people to you know, we're all lifelong learners now, now that we're all kind of these knowledge workers these days There's this ongoing need for personal and professional development. We all have to educate ourselves all the time. So whether that is audiobooks and my audible subscription is, they're now saying there are tiers, I'm one of the tiers! So I listened to a hell of a lot of Audible, I listened to a hell of a lot of podcasts. I subscribed to far too many, haven't got the hours in the day. And for me, there's a need for me to constantly be learning and growing and improving my skills. And whether that form takes the shape of an audio podcast, which is what we have today, or whether it is some combination of maybe one of these club houses or Twitter's got a new sort of format now, there's this insatiable need for people to upskill. And I think as long as you are able to put on, create content that is interesting and different and differentiated and gets really good speakers with great stories, it doesn't even have to be sort of big names, as long as they've got a great story to tell, people will always be interested in consuming that sort of content.

Jenny 33:45
Can you share a few of your favourite podcasts for the listeners?

Nathan 33:49
Oh, now that you've reminded me of Greg McKeown and Blair Enns I mean, those are some of my favourite. Greg McKeown was great, because it's Greg McKeown, you know, the author of Essentialism. And just one of the books that had such a profound fundamental effect on my life. And you read the book, and it's like, of course, of course. But it takes someone like that to really kind of just show it to you. So when I spoke to him, I was just, I mean butterflies and just like nervousness, had to have a sip of brandy! But he was just so nice and down to earth and accommodating. And we had this great chat about books. We had totally off script, because I had a whole thing planned of look, I'm talking to Greg McKeown, I need to be scripted, I need to know what I'm saying, when I'm saying but as soon as the conversation started, it went in a completely opposite direction and we just started riffing and talking, yeah, our influences and favourite books and stuff like that. So that was a great podcast. Rory Sutherland was great for a different reason. We only said that we would record for half an hour, I think he said initially, it went on into a two and a half hour podcast.

Jenny 35:14
Wow!

Nathan 35:15
I was like, okay, I'm sure you have other things to do Rory! So we had to break it up into three different episodes. It was just a monster of a conversation. And Rory is brilliant for every second of that two and a half hours. He was brilliant. He talks a million miles a minute. But everything that he says is just so true. And he's just a fountain of knowledge. That was a great conversation. I really loved that one. And there have been so many, so many Jenny.

Jenny 35:49
Well, you've had some fantastic guests. And thank you for pointing out those two, because I haven't listened to either one yet.

Nathan 35:55
All right. Okay.

Jenny 35:56
I've listened to quite a few, but I haven't. And what are the ones that you're actually listening to yourself? Like, any go to, particularly in the, obviously the sales space that you like?

Nathan 36:09
In sales? And I'm thinking of a really good one called, I can't remember the name of it now, but if you search Anthony Iannarino podcast, it'll come up. He's just great. Anyway, so whatever he does, a book or magazine or tweets, right, Anthony Iannarino, I'm just consuming all of it. But I tend not to, I don't listen to that many sales podcasts actually. I listen to general business podcasts. I listen to, there's a great one that I listen to called After Hours, which is HBR so three Harvard Business Review professors talking about the economy and business and politics, but just from the perspective of educators, and Harvard Business School educators. So it's Youngme Moon, Felix and Mihir, they've all written books. Youngme Moon has written a great book called 'Difference' a few years ago. I've never really read a book like it. It's all about the power of differentiation. And that was just, I was like, I'm consuming everything that this woman does. She's amazing. So Youngme Moon, she's one of the main hosts on the show. The Pivot Podcasts is great, but obviously a lot of people know that. What else am I listening to? I really like Market Place, it's like a kind of a economics podcast. It's kind of a 30 minute daily, I have no idea how these people do it, but it's packed, it's economics, but for every man. So it's looking at trends, macro and micro trends and what it means to everyday people. But it's done, you know what I said earlier about if you can make a podcast educational, fun, and entertaining at the same time, like that does that, every day for 30 minutes. It's brilliant Marketplace podcast is fantastic. What else am I listening to? Creative Agency Account Manager podcast!

Jenny 38:26
I've heard that's really good.

Nathan 38:30
Of course, that is essential listening!

Jenny 38:34
These are great tips go on, did you have another one there?

Nathan 38:38
So I'll give you one more. That's the Naval podcast, the happiness podcast. It's a fantastic one if you get a chance.

Jenny 38:45
Obviously, these are new to me so thank you so much. And they sound exactly the ones that I kind of like to listen to generally so thank you. Nathan, this has been absolutely fantastic. If there's an agency listening and thinking, I love what Nathan said, I would love to have a chat with him about what we could do as an agency or a brand for that matter. What's the best way that people can get hold of you, how can people reach you?

Nathan 39:11
So nathan@agencydealmasters.com is the email. Listen to the podcast, let us know what you think, I always like getting listener feedback on LinkedIn and email. So it's just nathananibaba on LinkedIn. Yeah, the entry point is the podcast. Listen to one that you like the look of and let me know what you think. They're not all great by the way! Some of them are better than others. I'm my harshest critic.

Jenny 39:41
Nathan honest, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for sharing so much value. So many tips. Very, very enlightening. I've learnt loads. So thank you so much. And I'll put all the notes and the links in the show notes. So thank you once again for coming on.

Nathan 39:56
You're very welcome. Thank you for having me, Jenny.