#2 - Built a Business to Fund Flight School

Welcome aboard to episode 2 of the Uncovering The Aviation Mindset podcast.

Today, I am joined by my friend Grady Montgomery, a full-time US-based Gulfstream contractor, entrepreneur, ex-firefighter, and self-confessed dreamer.  

Grady and I met over ten years ago on the Gulfstream 650 type rating course in Savannah, USA, and have been great friends since. 

Grady inspires me as he has always had the confidence to go it alone and not rely on employment to make his living.  He is also a successful businessman, running his property and t-shirt retailing businesses. 

In his spare time he enjoys spending time with his daughter, flying his light aricraft, and motoring around on his boat.  

In this conversation, Grady and I discuss his journey in aviation, starting from his late entry into flying and progressing to becoming a Gulfstream pilot. 

We explore topics such as taking risks, overcoming the fear of failure, dealing with challenging situations, teamwork, decision-making, leadership, and supporting others. 

Grady emphasises the importance of confidence, believing in oneself, and empowering others. 

He also highlights the role of mentors and the responsibility to help the next generation of pilots.

 

Takeaways

 

• Taking risks and investing in one's passion can lead to fulfilling careers.
• Overcoming fear of failure is essential for personal and professional growth.
• Teamwork and effective decision-making are crucial in aviation.
• Leadership involves empowering others and supporting their growth.
• Mentoring and helping the next generation is a responsibility for experienced professionals.

 

Chapters

 

00:00 Introduction and Background

02:23 Starting Flying and Career Progression

06:05 Taking Risks and Investing in the Future

10:25 Overcoming Fear of Failure

13:19 Dealing with Challenging Situations

17:34 Teamwork and Decision-Making

25:10 Gaining Confidence and Empowering Others

29:59 Saying No and Making Difficult Decisions

38:49 Leadership and Supporting Others

42:35 Mentoring and Helping the Next Generation

• If you are interested in exploring how to develop your mindset and confidence with me, why not click the link to my website and book a FREE 30-minute discovery call during which we will discuss whether I am able to support you with my coaching program?
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Transcript

Ben le Fleming (00:00.322)

think that's right we all have our intrinsic fears actually one of my fears is heights I've got a real fear of heights so we can because that's quite an interesting one you know I know for a pilot and I know other pilots that are afraid of heights too so I always find that just a little ironic but it is what it is yeah I'm here I'm here today with my lovely friend Grady and I've known each other for about 10 years we did our Goldstream 650 course together

 

month in July, we both got some experience on the 550. We made friends immediately, went out, socialized together and just really became great friends. And we've seen each other all around the world now for nearly 10 years. So welcome Grady. Thank you, Ben. Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me on your podcast. Lovely to have you. Grady's got a really interesting background because he didn't actually start flying until he was 34. And you came, as you...

 

Talked about, as I well know, we've talked plenty of times about as you came from not a privileged family in terms of finances. So you've had to work all through your life and you went through and did the business and finance degree, set up a t-shirt business, worked really as an entrepreneur. You didn't start flying until 34. That's all correct, Ben. You know, being a pilot had been a childhood dream.

 

So, you know, I wanted to do it, just didn't have the financial resources to pursue it through college, out of college. You know, I started a different company, a t-shirt company. And before that, you know, I had done various jobs. I was a DJ, a lifeguard, a bartender, just a lot of different things. And the t-shirt company provided the financial wherewithal to get my pilot's license. And I'm pretty much a goal already in person. So I decided, well, I know nothing about flying. I know nothing about aviation. So.

 

I'm going to stick with until I solo. And if I don't like it, then I'll drop out then. But I actually loved it. And I went on and got my private pilot's license and then just kept moving forward. Like everybody else, Instrument Commercial, ATP, started a little aerial tour company, which I turned into a 135 charter, which led into me becoming a co-pilot on a Citation II that was based on the local field where I lived and did my flying. And that's kind of how I got into aviation.

 

Ben le Fleming (02:23.246)

Yes, that's such a brilliant story. But I can't actually remember, I've asked you this specifically. When you got into flying, did you do it to become a commercial pilot or was it just literally to get to that first stage of sailing and seeing what happens after that? It was, there was no goal to become a commercial pilot. It was strictly to get a private pilot's license. Like I mentioned, my goal was to solo. And then once I reached that, then I wanted to get my private pilot's license. And you know, what...

 

I did it for multiple reasons. I've always had a travel bug. I've always liked to travel and I've always had a sense of adventure. And, you know, weekend trips, when you have a small airplane, take on a whole new meaning because three and a half hours in an airplane can take you a lot further than three and a half hours in an automobile. So, that's how I got into it. And then, like I said, it was my passion. So, even though I was later in life, I just kept pursuing it. And, you know, this brought me to where I am today. Yeah, such a good story. The thing that I...

 

I'm really impressed about we talked about this back in 2014 because I've got that sort of basic mindset. What I think I'm pushing through it now about the idea, well, let's stick with the safety thing and get a job so that you've got a guaranteed income and you've got a bit of a pension and things like that. But you went against that grain. I know being an entrepreneur, you have that mindset and I think I'm very much developing that in my later years now. Very it's wonderful. It's very liberating, very empowering. But you.

 

You did that early, because you've been a contractor. We call it freelance over here. But you've been a freelancer for the last 14 years. And to go from... I mean, you had your first job, I think, on citations and Falcons, but to actually go and decide... That's just such a good story, the way you went from chief pilot on the citations to the Falcons to the next stage of becoming a Gulfstream pilot. I mean, I love that. It's such an impact. Tell us that story.

 

Sure. Well, it's not a great story, but it's, I was chief pilot for a great part 91 flight department. And, you know, the financial downturn, they got behind it. They couldn't get ahead of it. So that department closed. And I was just starting, trying to figure out what I wanted to do. This is in 2009, 2010. And, you know, the aviation market wasn't great. So I was looking at everything. I was doing contract work in the Citations and the XL.

 

Ben le Fleming (04:43.094)

And I'm going like, if I want to do this, you've got to go large cabin. You got to go global or Gulf Stream. And I've lived near Savannah. I have friends at Gulf Stream. I have other acquaintances that flew Gulf Stream. So I chose to do that route. So I did, I paid for my own 550 type, my G5 type, which was a 550 to 450 of the G5. And it took me a couple of years to become successful at that because

 

You know, it's like any other business. When you've got to go out and you market yourself, you've got to go to the event, you've got to let everybody know who you are and what you're doing and that you're available. And you just got to meet and greet people. So I was a, it took me a couple years, but I turned into a successful G5 contract pilot. The G650 was announced and I told a buddy of mine that like, oh, that's, I'm going to school on that. And he kind of chuckled and said, okay, yeah, sure. And when it came out,

 

I was in one of the earlier classes with you on the 650. And, you know, I paid for all my own training. So I had paid for my G5 initial. I paid for all my recurrence. And I bought and paid for my G650 type. And, you know, it's a leap of faith is all it is. You know, my goal was just to hopefully get enough work in it starting out to, you know, recoup my investment and to move forward. But what I kept telling everybody is, you know, that's just an investment in my future.

 

And I did the exact same thing when I went to G7 school. But going back to the 650, you know, I hit the ground running and it's a long range aircraft. There weren't a lot of pilots typed on it. And it was just, I just hit a home run. I really did. So I became a successful G650 contract pilot. I did that for a few years. And then when Gulfstream announced the G7 series, you know, with the side stick and the symmetry flight deck, I realized at that time that Gulfstream would never put a yoke back into another aircraft.

 

So that is the future. And if you want to make an investment in your future, that's a plane to go to school on because it doesn't have the range of a 650. It doesn't do the same missions, but that's going to be a start. And that's where I'm at now. I'm a full-time contract pilot on the 500, 600 and been on the G650 with you for 10 years. You said you're such a humble individual, Grady, honestly, this is why I like you so much is that.

 

Ben le Fleming (07:02.83)

You're an impressive character in everything you do, but I'm still finding, after 10 years, I'm still finding all this stuff out about which is absolutely wonderful. But for me, the big thing here is that you back to yourself. You didn't, I listened to things like Rich Dad, Poor Dad, Robert Kiyosaki. It talks about that so many people are, they're concentrating on what they're gonna lose and what they're not gonna have rather than what they can, the joy of actually having something. They're too focused on the fear of losing something.

 

other than the joy and the happiness and the wonder of having something in the future. But it seems to me when I talk to you is that you don't have that what are you going to lose? You don't have that mindset. You have that, well, what am I going to gain from doing these things? And you're not kind of like, oh, I'm going to be the big alpha male and do this. It's just for you, it's just an intrinsic thing, which I obviously know a lot of people, met a lot of people around the world in our aviation business as well as...

 

in life generally, talk to my kids, you've got a lovely daughter as well, of thinking how do we encourage people, how do we get to that stage when the dominant focus, the automatic intrinsic focus is what are we gonna gain from this situation rather than, ooh, I'm not too sure really. So how do you think you develop that go to, I can mindset? You know, Ben, it's funny. And I haven't told very many people this story, but I am.

 

Everything changed for me my senior year in high school. I was pretty much a very shy individual. I was a wallflower at the high school dance. And I've told this story to a few people. I was at a high school dance my senior year. And I realized that if I never ask a girl to dance, I will never be rejected, but I'll also never dance. So it's a choice you have to make. And when I graduated from high school, again, I grew up in a very working class family. So I worked on a fire department, a paid fire department for two years.

 

So when I went to college, I had a complete different mindset. I was older than everybody else by a couple years, and I was paying for my own everything in college. So my motivation was to get really good grades to study, but still have fun and enjoy the college experience. I see it in so many people. Everybody, we all have a fear of failure. Everybody. It's a natural thing, whether it's talking on a podcast or speaking in front of a group of people, asking an attractive.

 

Ben le Fleming (09:26.762)

you know, person out for a date or, you know, taking the risk and interviewing for the job of your dreams or whatever it might be. It's very, it's a challenge to push past that fear and to actually believe enough into yourself that, you know, that you can make it work. And guess what? The worst case scenario is that you won't have any regrets at the end. You know, you can say, well, I didn't make it, but I tried. I gave it my best.

 

And if I was to give anybody advice, that's just believe in yourself and go for it. There's nothing holding you back. So just believe in your dreams and go for your dreams. You've got nothing to lose and everything to gain. Yeah, that's true. And that big word is regrets. Absolutely huge words. The idea of having regrets means that you're a failure, not good enough, there's a shame-based thing for me. That's the context of that word.

 

thinking, as you say, never have any regrets, because you never actually lose out from your experience. You never lose out from that experience. The whole idea about failure, the reason we're... Scott Wienemeier. Sorry. That's all right, mate, no worries. I think I told you earlier that I forgot to plug my laptop on the first podcast I did, and the whole thing went completely blank, even though I'd written a note. That's good. Yeah. But it's interesting, but we recovered it. So, yeah.

 

regrets that whole thing. So for me, I've studied the brain and the, you know, the neuro system and the limbic system is there, of course, the basic, basic system and our brain is to survive and to procreate. So failure has to be, fear has to be an intrinsic thing to trigger us not to be eaten by a lion or not to just jump in the sea without learning how to swim, all that kind of stuff. But we're so, we are so primed.

 

in our basic reptilian brain to think failure is, fear is something that we have to face instead of using our prefrontal cortex, which is our personality, that unique part to us as human beings, to use that to think actually is this, is failure, is the fear legitimate here? But in this particular situation, when we're standing on stage, when we are facing a difficult relationship with parents, children, friends, divorce, we've both been through divorce.

 

Ben le Fleming (11:54.87)

people would get completely emotionally hijacked because they can't, I think, can't put the sophisticated rational brain in to counter the initial fear-based thing. And I honestly think that I've been caught by this on many occasions. I'll tell the story about when I was flying the 767, sorry, 757, I did the training, course went really well, I was confident, came through, did my six-monthly SIM check, and I was with this ex-military guy, he was a fast...

 

jet pilot and he had that old methodology of just hammering you left, right and centre and I couldn't get the next brief which is, as we know just for anybody that doesn't understand it, is talking to the cabin crew in the back and explaining exactly the nature of the problem and the intention of what we're going to do, how long it's going to take, are we going to be on the ground in 10 minutes for example with an engine failure and any special things will prepare the cabin for an emergency landing or...

 

whatever it is as we understand that. So, and I got the order around the wrong way and he hammered me for 10 minutes. And I sat there completely exposed, so self-conscious, came out of that sim thinking, I never want to fly again. Why did I become a pilot? Because I felt as though I'd failed instead of going back and thinking, that's an interesting one. I hadn't nailed that properly and to think, well, I'm just going to nail that out. Took me, there's another story about how I overcame it, but I just felt like a failure for so long.

 

Whereas you've automatically, you think here's an opportunity. And I'm definitely much better at that now, seeing everything as an opportunity. Yeah, and I think part of that's maturing, age, wisdom. Like you said, we've both been through divorces. I had prostate cancer, which was a huge challenge for me in my career several years ago. I overcame all of that and...

 

It's hard to say, I don't want to use the old cliche, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, but there is some value in that. And I think it's the same thing in aviation is, you know, you have to know your limitations. And if you're not comfortable, you know, with the flying into an airport, maybe with the short runway and the windy condition at night with, you know, wet runway, then you shouldn't do it. You need to know your limitations. But at the same time, you can't be afraid.

 

Ben le Fleming (14:12.846)

to go to the edge of your limitations. Maybe not to the outer edge, but if it's safe and everything says you can do it, then you've got to be, you've got to have the confidence. That's the word. You got to have the confidence to just go out there and do it. And I think it's that way in life with almost anything you want to achieve. I fly a lot of billionaires and people always ask me, what's their common trait? And I tell everybody, they're not afraid to fail. They hate failing.

 

They're type A's, they want to win, and they normally do win. But most importantly, they were willing to take a chance where a lot of their colleagues and maybe former students, they did not. They were afraid. So they stepped up, they took a chance, and, you know, now they're billionaires because of that risk that they took, you know, back in their earlier part of their career. Yeah, I think that's absolutely bang on. I try and analogize it to flying.

 

that we can prepare for the flight mission. Huge amounts of preparation goes into a flight mission. There's a thousand people, they say, invested in the whole success of that mission to understand how important it is to have people around us supporting us in that mission. But you get up in the air, and sometimes you just get hit by the thunderstorm. There's a story of me going over the South China Sea when suddenly out of nowhere I got hit, and at 550...

 

by a thunderstorm, the turbulence just, we didn't see it on the radar. It kicked the autopilot off, the nose of the aeroplane started to come up, and then the left wing drops. Within split seconds, it was so violent. And then, Viraj, my mate, was in the left-hands, so we were co-captains, but he was flying on that day, grabbed hold of the control stick, got it leveled out, so my heart was absolutely pumping, thinking, okay, this is, right, let's just get through this turbulence and we'll be okay, and then, this lightning came out of nowhere.

 

absolutely smacked straight on the end of the airplane. Four times, four times it hit us dead on. And all I could think of was the Air France flight that had gone down in the South Atlantic a few years before, it killed 250 odd people when they went through that thunderstorm. And I just knew my job was to look at the instruments, just to keep scanning the instruments, to know that we're in a good place. But...

 

Ben le Fleming (16:35.234)

The whole point of that story, we came out of it okay, and the other side of the story is that there was the most incredible sunrise over the Indonesian islands in the South China Sea there, and the calm and the peace and the contrast in terms of my emotions was just amazing. So I always think my mindset now, every time I'm being challenged by something, I'm always thinking, okay, Ben, you're gonna get hit by the lightning strike of fear, doubt, uncertainty, exposure, but you're gonna see that incredibly peaceful, harmonious.

 

wonderful blissful ecstatic sunrise on the other side and that really what is really what helps me focus. But I think in our business of course yeah we're in charge of keeping people safe and knowing when to push those limitations a little bit whether we go into Teterborough high intense area of traffic the weather can just change very quickly and it all happens we've got all the stories

 

for that. So again, we're two crew in that airplane and working out with the other person. That's another big thing. So if you were, for example, you were feeling uncomfortable or you're with somebody else who was uncomfortable about going into Teterborough in the middle of the night and all these conditions, what would you advise them or what would you talk about your uncertainties to the other pilot? Well, if you're both co-captains, that's the way you fly, most operations fly, both pilots have to be on board and okay.

 

with to do it. If either pilot's not comfortable with it, my opinion is don't do it. Go to Newark, go someplace, go to another airport. And that's, we're talking about Teterburg, but that goes for anything in aviation. If you're not, if one pilot, and there's two pilots in a cockpit, if one pilot's not comfortable with that situation, then you should not go into it. That's kind of the way I've lived my life. And, you know, and also done some instruction flights and whatnot, where they don't know what the plane is capable of. They've never done it. They've never seen it.

 

they came out of a much smaller aircraft, you know, that didn't have the same capabilities of a Gulfstream. And that turns more into a teaching event than anything else, because then you can say, well, this is perfectly safe, this is fine, and I'll show you how you can do it. And that goes the same thing with parking the aircraft. We talk about Teterboro. You know, parking on the ramps up there can be quite challenging, because they are shoehorning your aircraft in with just a few feet on each wingtip.

 

Ben le Fleming (19:02.038)

with other aircraft because it's a very high capacity, very densely populated airport. And if you're not, I've flown with some pilots said, I said, if you're not comfortable, just stop, because that's better to do that than it is to damage an airplane or something along those lines. Yeah, it reminds me of the story. It depends on your level of confidence and you're a very confident individual. Also, you have a very strong attachment

 

an understanding of emotions and getting on top of that, you don't get emotionally hijacked. And I think you're unusual in terms of men to do that. I would like to think I'm the same and I'm really fascinated by it. You're also a very spiritually connected individually, understand the importance of connection with everything around you, which makes you a great communicator as well. And we actually haven't, even though we're great mates and we weren't in the simulator together on the course, we've never actually...

 

been in a cockpit together, but I can imagine it would work so well between us because there wouldn't be any conflict whatsoever. There'd be like, here's a challenge. Can we very focused? We're very solution focused rather than, well, I'm a bit under confident. And then when you're feeling under confident, the natural thing is to sort of react and reach out to somebody else and sorry, not reach out to blame somebody else for not doing this. And then the amount of times I've sat in that cockpit before when people are just so nervous and they just

 

they start nitpicking these tiny little things. But just going back to that whole, the teaching thing of coaxing out people's confidence. So we've got to work this out. I had an example a while back where we turned up at the airplane and the screens on the airplane, we've got all these main screens, haven't we? We've got six in our, in fact, five, no, sorry. Yeah, one, two, three, four, five, six.

 

I can't count it now, the G-Sat. The G-Sat. A few of them were down and we were going off to the Maldives. So long flight from Luton. These screens were down. The other pilot had got there, lovely guy, but he's very risk averse. And really felt uncomfortable about this. The engineer was there saying, well we've got three, so we're going to be good with the MEL, the minimum equipment list, which we have to refer to, as you know, just for people who

 

Ben le Fleming (21:29.191)

that much aviation knowledge. We have to have this minimum equipment list, which we know is based around safety. So it took quite a while. I felt comfortable, so did the engineer, but he clearly didn't. And I was wrapped with that idea of, am I pushing him to something that's unsafe here, or am I trying to do this? Because the customers are coming, the passengers are coming, and I feel genuinely as though we're okay to do this, but we've got to...

 

10 or 11 hour flight thinking this guy might want to do it. So we did go in the end, we did go in the end, but it took quite a while for him to feel confident with that. And I wasn't sure I'd put too much pressure on him just because I felt more confident in that situation. I mean, you must've found yourself in that situation before. I think we all have. I'm blessed because I get to fly with a lot of great individuals. And again, every flight is different, Ben. I mean, and-

 

One thing I didn't say earlier when we were talking about my career is, you know, I had so many people, and I'm not going to name names on here. If they listen to it, they'll know who they are. But throughout my career, I've had so many people that have helped me. And that's what I try to repay the favor to. Like right now, I'm mentoring a couple up and coming, you know, pilots. So I do try to pay it forward. But to go back to your situation is that, you know,

 

Every situation is different. Every flight is different. You know, not to start telling stories, but I was with another highly experienced long-term pilot friend that I've known just like you for many years. And we were down over South America near the equator. And you know, the thunderstorms down there are just popping up everywhere. And we've got all the bells and whistles. We've got XM weather on our iPads. We've got the radar. And we had the advantage of it still being daylight.

 

darkness is coming, but we still do. And you can see these storms just coming up every place. So basically, you know, I'm a contractor. So he goes into the back and he briefs his passengers and hey, we carried extra fuel. We're gonna go up to 47,000 feet and we're gonna try to pick our way through these. But if we can't, we're gonna turn around and go back and land. But we're gonna be about 45 minutes to an hour behind schedule due to our deviations. So, and that's exactly what we did. And just like your story.

 

Ben le Fleming (23:47.986)

We picked our way through. We had some turbulence. Thank goodness it wasn't terrible. But we had a few bumps. But then when we got through the other side, we were blessed with an amazing sunset. I actually took photos. It was so nice. And that was in a G600. So, and the outcome was great. You know, the passengers were thankful that we didn't try to get them there on time and fly them through the worser part of the weather. You know, they were thankful that we did do the deviations. And we did everything we could to provide them a.

 

a safe, comfortable and smooth ride. And those are the things that I always operate under. Safety's first, comfort's second, and then try to make it as economically feasible before them as possible financially. So that's kind of the way that I normally, my brain works. Yeah, I get that as well. I think the fact that you're mentoring the mentoring, and we are in that stage, you're in your 60s, I'm in my 50s. I've been flying for 26 years.

 

probably similar to you actually, I think we probably started around about the same time, actually we've got a 10 year split. For me now, I feel as though I am in that mentoring stage, not just because of my experience in aviation, but with middle age, so if we hadn't learnt something a little bit, personality, we've been wasting our time now. But I think, you know, the big thing is when...

 

Somebody asked, I had an interview recently actually, and one of the questions for the job was, how do you see yourself now after some years of experience as a captain compared to in the early stages? And very much when I got that left-hand seat in the Gulf Streams, I felt as though I had to prove that I was good enough to be here, as opposed to having proved it already and settling into it, understandably, it really trying to concentrate on getting it right. So.

 

I think for me, I probably didn't listen to the other person enough, I had to prove that I, you know, could do it. And so I, emotionally probably wasn't as advanced as I am now. Now I think I'm in that stage where, okay, I don't need to prove anything at all. And perhaps a little bit of complacency kicks in every now and then with it, but it's fit as though I can recover most situations. So I don't, yeah, I don't feel as though I'm proving something. I don't feel as though I have to advise anybody. I've done my coaching training.

 

Ben le Fleming (26:07.862)

my life coaching training, one of the things, big things, the whole thing about it is don't advise, stop trying to solve a problem here, ask a few questions. So I've already brought that into the cockpit and I think I do fit as though in the training, I missed that a bit. I don't think I had that sort of training from many other people. Most of the people wanted to sort of tell me what I should be doing rather than working it out for myself and those real gold.

 

mentors, the really gold instructors, examiners are the ones who just said, why you asking yourself, Ben, you can do it, right? So what's going on instead of shaking their head and say what you should be doing what you should shouldn't be doing. I bring that into my children now. So sounds as though you've I know very much you're in that situation. So in that, just going back to your thunderstorm situation, did the other pilot feel the same as you? Was he more nervous about it less nervous than you?

 

Yeah, he was very like-minded and we were neither one was never nervous because we had a backup plan. You know, like I said, if we had got up there and we could have safely gone through the storms of the equator, we would have just turned around and went back, you know, 45 minutes, landed, take on some more gas, waited on, you know, they usually die down after dark, waited on to dissipate and then try it again. But it worked out. It had a great ending. But when you were talking about your event, that one came into my head as the one and that was only.

 

a year or two ago, it was relatively recent. Yeah. So thinking about my simulator experience with the ex-minitry guy who gave me a real hammering, have you found yourself in that situation with somebody who's given you both barrels and you think, oh, okay, I'm not sure about this, this feels really uncomfortable? Yeah, it's funny you say that, Ben. I have not in the training environment, but being a contract pilot,

 

I fly with companies literally all over the world, and I fly with a very wide assortment of people, you know, ex-military, ex-air line, you know, they came up through the ranks in the corporate department. So I fly with a very, very large, you know, dynamic of people. And, you know, everybody's got their own personalities. You know, I fly with a couple guys, I have flown, I shouldn't say I do, I have flown with a couple guys that were, seemed very nervous. You know, they're constantly...

 

Ben le Fleming (28:31.946)

doing something, they just can't sit and seem to relax. I'm a relatively relaxed flyer, you know, and I like flying with people who are like-minded. It's, you know, we've got a mission statement. We need to get these people from point A to point B. We need to do it as safely and efficiently as possible. And, you know, that's the mission statement. So if we can do it, we do, and if we can't, we accept that we can, you know, parameters beyond our control. A maintenance issue is a perfect example.

 

You know, now if it's MELable and we're both comfortable to go, then yes, we go. But if it can't be MELed, which you've already explained the minimum equipment list, well, now the flight is canceled. We're grounded until maintenance comes and repairs the airplane. And we'll try again another day. So, you know, that's the philosophy and the attitude that I take on it. I am not super mission-oriented, meaning that we need to make this trip happen no matter what. I'm more of the mindset like, well,

 

you know, if everything goes as it should, we'll be able to do the mission, we'll be able to complete the trip and everything will go just as planned. But if we get thrown some curve balls that we can't overcome for reasons beyond our control, then, you know, we'll cancel the flight and repair the airplane or wait till the weather improves and then we'll try again another day. So that's kind of the way I look at it. Yeah, I completely agree with that. I've been in plenty of situations before with people who aren't quite so confident

 

they again going back to that idea that they want to stay in the safety of keeping the job and sometimes that limits their ability to make those clear decisions and I'm not saying that I haven't been guilty of that in the past, I'm sure there's plenty of times I have of thinking well, we've got a billionaire in the back of the aeroplane and we've got to get there, there's pressure is on and we fight, we fight in our business, I've flown in the airlines where it's just standard, if the aeroplane is not good, you take it off and away you go and.

 

250 passengers in the back. It's like, terribly sorry everybody, but that's the way it is. We've got the added pressure of these billionaires potentially screaming down the tracks. I've been in the back of an airplane in Kazakhstan with a billionaire screaming at me, absolutely screaming at me. And for me, I just attached myself from that situation, but a lot of people would be geared towards thinking, we've got to get this done, we've got to get this done. And it distorts their decision-making of actually...

 

Ben le Fleming (30:58.762)

Yeah, these are the risks, these are the options, let's just say no to these people in the back. And I definitely wasn't in that confident position earlier on in my days, but being shouted at a few times, and you think about me, and I think this is where we developed this emotional thing, of thinking when you make that decision to shut the aeroplane back and come back the next morning, somebody got to go and speak to them in the background, you got to speak to the operations people, and the...

 

They are so mission orientated, the money's got to come in, they're worried about losing the customer. So you've got to do it, you've got to do it. And being able to say no, sometimes can be a very hard decision. But that's, I think that's where we have to understand that emotional understanding of what's going on inside us. So that we build the confidence to actually say to the other person, I'm sorry, we can't do this. And know that they're screaming and shouting at you is actually not about you, it's about them. Of course. And I've told many up and coming pilots that no,

 

is the hardest word you will ever utter to an owner. Because, you know, they're billionaires, they've got a very important meeting they've got to get to. If they don't make it, it might cost them millions of dollars and there's a lot of pressure on you. But they didn't hire you to be a yes man. Because, you know, they hired you to keep them safe. And you do, you have to detach yourself from the emotion. I've seen passengers get very upset.

 

You know, being a contractor, I've never actually been yelled at like you were discussing, but I've had passengers get very upset. And, you know, I sympathize with them. I understand why they're upset. I really do. And I wish there was something we could do about it. But when the weather is so bad that you just can't go, or you've got a maintenance issue that keeps you on the ground, that is just something that's beyond your control. And you just have to stand up and say, I am so sorry, but we cannot go. The answer is no.

 

And that's the hardest word that I think a lot of pilots have to ever utter to their passengers, to the principal, or to the crew. You know, somebody has to make a decision, and it's the PIC, which is normally, you know, one of the full-time guys.

 

Ben le Fleming (33:10.838)

think that therein lies a good point, isn't it? Is that you come in as a contractor, you're highly valuable. And there are plenty of times when your experience is far greater than those people and perhaps your confidence, as you've mentioned before, can be far greater, yet the other person has to make that decision. And I can see for you, it's a difficult thing. You're in a very claustrophobic environment. Sometimes we get up at the aeroplane at four in the morning. We haven't slept for the night before. It's snowing, the fuel is late, the catering is late.

 

One of the other crew members is, well, you're not feeling particularly well. There's so many dynamics that can knock you in terms of confidence and communication skills and things like that. But you have that turning up of thinking, actually, I'm not familiar with the people that I'm flying with. I'm not familiar with the operational processes, the standard operating procedures that we stick in an airplane. You've got to come in there and you've got to work out the dynamic with the passengers as well. That's...

 

quite a lot that you deal with. So you have to assess that situation very quickly and think, how do I be the flexible Grady and not the fixed mind? This is gonna be, I'm the experienced one, I'm here, but it's unique, which I can see. It takes a certain type of personality like you to be asked back time and time again after 14, 15 years as a contractor, because I think you have that high level of emotional understanding of being able to adapt to the personalities involved.

 

Yeah, and Ben, thank you for saying that. And it's that, and you know, my thought, my mission statement for me when I show up to a company is I am there to support the crew, to support that operation, to support that mission. You know, me flying the airplane, that's secondary. And I'm also there to get paid, you know, as a contractor. So that's what I do. I'm just there to support the team. And I can tell you that I've flown with some outstanding pilots. And I've never flown with anyone.

 

that I was concerned about. And we have had some challenging situations, but I just passed 10,000 hours of total time and three fourths of that's in jets and Gulf streams this past summer. So I have a lot of experience and you know, so much of the decision making comes from experience. So I have had full time, you know, being a contractor, I've had full time people say, well, what do you think? Cause they've only been flying the airplane for maybe six months or a year.

 

Ben le Fleming (35:35.558)

and they're relatively new to Gulf Streams, and maybe they're even new to large cabin international operations. And I always tell them the same thing. We break it down, we discuss it, and I say, I personally feel this operation is safe, but you are the PIC, you're the captain. So if you're not comfortable with it, do not feel obligated to do it. And, you know, that's come up a few times, and a lot of times, it is a joint decision. They'll ask me, well, you know, I'm okay with it. Are you okay with it?

 

And if I am, which is most of the time, I'll say, yeah, I'm absolutely fine with this decision, let's continue. So, you know, I've just been blessed because I fly with a lot of good crews. And I think that also comes when you're flying the Gulf Streams or maybe the Globals, you know, if you're a top tier operator, which is what Globals and Gulf Streams really are, and Falcons for that matter. But, you know, flying the 650, flying the 500, 600, you know, that's the pinnacle to me.

 

And you're dealing with, you know, top rated crews. These guys that get to where they are by making bad decisions or by being difficult or being yes men for that matter. And so many of the companies, I work for a lot of Fortune 50 companies and, you know, they have SOPs. They have policies. And if something is outside of a risk factor, then they have to take it to somebody above them, usually the chief pilot, possibly the director, and say, hey, you know, our,

 

Our score came in relatively high. You know, we need to mitigate the risk. This is my thoughts. Are you okay with us doing this trip? So, it's, Ben, you mentioned it once before. It's, there are so many people involved to a successful flight. I mean, I don't know what the number would be, but it's hundreds, if not maybe up to even a thousand by the time it's all said and done. It's schedulers. It's dispatchers. It's flight attendants, which don't get near enough credit. It's the pilots. It's the ground maintenance staff. It's.

 

It's ATC, it is the people whomever is filing your flight plans and getting your overflight permits and your slot times. It takes a mountain of people to make a trip successful. And it's everybody working together. It's teamwork, you know, that's truly what it is. It's just teamwork. That's how you accomplish these very, very difficult trips. And just in the last six or eight months, I've done a couple that were very difficult, but, you know, they had a top-notch crew, they had a top-notch crew.

 

Ben le Fleming (37:56.91)

scheduling, dispatch, maintenance, flight attendant, and, you know, we were able to accomplish exactly what they wanted to accomplish. And again, it just comes back to teamwork and everybody working together, no big egos, you know, no agendas, personal agendas that they feel like, oh, you know, I've got this big ego and I've got to make this happen and prove something to XYZ. You know, they just accept it as it is, the facts.

 

and we work as a team and we make that decision and it works. I think absolutely bang on. If I could write that as a mission statement for myself, that would be exactly it, word for word. It's brilliant. What I'm thinking there is the huge, leadership is talked about a lot now. It's such a big word. And the idea about leadership is that you're right at the top of the tree.

 

Okay, and of course we know an organization or a team or whatever, I played a lot of sports myself, worked for a lot of companies. You know if the atmosphere is set from the top, is creative and innovative and go for it mate, I believe in what you've got to do. If you've got a problem, give us a shout, otherwise, it's your way and go for it. But leadership comes from every angle. So you talked about the various people who are invested in.

 

in our business. I think about the fueler. As far as I'm concerned, he's very much a leader for us. Because if we didn't empower him to be absolutely bang on knowing his task and advising us, if he looks around and notices we've got a nick in the wing of the aeroplane or we've got a flag in the wrong place, we need him to say, hey guys. So we can't be

 

Ben le Fleming (39:45.982)

level in there, but that comes from confidence to be able to say actually, yeah, I'm not sure I'm uncertain, but I'm going to voice my opinion in this situation. And I think what you're saying from being the contractor is learning to read that situation and empowering the other people to feel what's operate at their highest level, which is basically what leadership is about, isn't it? It's giving that other person confidence. Eleanor Roosevelt said that great

 

Ben le Fleming (40:16.326)

Good leaders will empower somebody to believe in the leader. Great leaders will empower somebody to believe in themselves. I think that's a good way of describing leadership because you don't need to be the big CEO, the big billionaire or the chief pilot or the DFO, the director of flight operations. Anybody that has the ability to encourage others to feel good about themselves are absolute leaders. And I think I would put that probably if I'm summing Grady up.

 

that you are such a good leader because you understand how to make people feel great about themselves. That comes from emotional understanding, that comes from what I term as the spiritual understanding, i.e. connecting to something much bigger than just ourselves. So yeah, I think for me that's what I'm thinking. Grady is a great leader.

 

I appreciate that Ben, like I've said many times, I try to support everybody. And again, the support doesn't just end with the other pilot or even the flight attendant, it goes down to the maintenance guy, to the line crew, to the fueler, to the person delivering the catering. I mean, again, there's so many people involved in making a successful flight. And I think it's probably that way in life if you really look at it. I mean, like I always say, no man's an island.

 

And as I said earlier, throughout my aviation career, throughout my life, my personal life, some of my greatest challenges that I personally have faced, there's always been people there to help and to support me. And if I do fall down, they'll pick me up, brush me off and push me back into the game. And that is what I try to do for other people at this point, because you mentioned it earlier, and I was joking with an acquaintance of mine I know six, eight months ago.

 

We went from being the new guys on the field to being the old guys overnight. I must have napped during that transition. I didn't get the handoff. I don't know how I went from being the new young guy to the old guy, but that's where we're at now in our career. And I think there is a responsibility for us with our experience and our age and our wisdom to try to help the up and coming generation of pilots, male, female, regardless of to help them, because...

 

Ben le Fleming (42:35.062)

People helped us. People helped me when I was coming up. I had a couple of really good mentors, you know, earlier in my career that gave me great advice and probably kept me from endangering myself or something, doing something stupid that I would regret later. And I'll tell you, one of them is, he goes like, if you're thinking about doing something you're not sure, and it goes bad, read that NTSB report backwards and say, and if you think your peers would go, what was Grady thinking? Don't do it.

 

Yeah, so that's kind of the way I live my life. Think of the accident report and then work back to the beginning from there, I think that's brilliant advice. Listen, we can talk about this for hours and we do when we get together and I really would love you to come on the podcast many more times because there's so many good stories that we'll talk about but it's been brilliant, mate. It's been brilliant, thank you for supporting me and supporting our community and just really supporting humanity, I think, been absolutely wonderful.