Jon Eckert:
Today we're here with Dr. Anne Marie Taylor. She is the lead learner, love that title, at Horse Creek Academy in South Carolina. I love the work that she does and the fact that she teaches a criminology course on top of being what most people would call a principal.
So Ann Marie, thanks for being with us today, and thanks for what you do at Horse Creek.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, it's the best gig ever.
Jon Eckert:
Yes, I love that. I love the energy you bring. We got to be together just a couple of weeks ago as we talked to the Collective Leadership Initiative in South Carolina. We've been working on that for eight years. You've been a part of it with your school for five years. Talk to us a little bit about how your school approaches collective leadership and how it's part of what you talk about nicely, about the norms, that you have created at Horse Creek Academy. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah. First of all, I was fangirling a little bit when we saw each other a couple of weeks ago, so I just need to admit that just in case anyone's listening. But ...
Jon Eckert:
That's the first time that's ever happened, Ann Marie.
Ann Marie Taylor:
No, it's not. Okay, it's the nerd version. It's the nerd version of fangirl
Jon Eckert:
Okay. I'll accept nerd version
Ann Marie Taylor:
Okay, so I had never been a school leader previous to coming to Horse Creek Academy. I guess no one else interviewed that had any experience at all, so they picked me, which was a win. But the school had some amazing people and had so much potential. I remember walking in excited to see what I could do, but mostly realizing that in my previous leadership experience when I left, the work stopped and I was so ... Gosh, I was stuck by that a little bit. I was determined to not go into this new phase of leadership in my career with that same mindset.
We dove right in. It's a charter school. It's been in existence 20 years in South Carolina. I went back to the original charter and the staff and I picked out a couple words that really stuck in the 10, 15 years that had been in existence that really stuck and those three words kind of guided us. But what I knew is it was such a big job, I couldn't do it by myself. I also knew that I had spent 16, 17 years in the profession at that point and felt like I never really fit in a traditional system. I was always too big or moving too fast or making too much change, and kind of was put in the corner. I think about that Dirty Dancing movie about Baby in the corner. But anyway-
Jon Eckert:
You let baby be put in the corner. Ann Marie, no.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yes, so I was determined to think through how to do leadership different. Number one, selfishly, because I knew that there was a lot to offer and there was a lot of change ahead, and I knew it was going to be a ton of work. But mostly because I knew that the only thing I knew how to do maybe was build a team. I used that to my advantage and really found the best people around me that could help.
We had visited a school in South Carolina that was a part of this initiative already, and I fell in love with the idea that anyone could lead, and how I desperately wanted that as a teacher and I never could get it. We started by diving into norms and expectations and saying something that I've repeated millions of times, "Hey, I can almost guarantee I'll disappoint you, but I'll disappoint you a lot less if we set up norms and expectations."
When I talk about norms and expectations, I think about when I was a classroom teacher, most of my years have been in special education, and most of those years were in self-contained classrooms. I remember because of students with behavior disorders that I would work with, that they needed ownership and they wanted to say. If I could give them a choice, even if it was a forced choice, they would typically take me up on my offer. What I realized is adults are the same way, right? They just want to be heard. I wanted a voice and I wanted a choice, and so I bet other people felt that way too. To begin with, I used the same strategies I used with my students with behavior disorders, and honestly, that's where I started, norms and expectations and voice and choice. It's a crazy way to start, but it worked perfectly.
Jon Eckert:
Well, it's not crazy.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
You went in knowing that you couldn't do it on your own and that you came from a position where you had wanted to have more leadership and not just voice or buy-in, but you wanted ownership.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
You stepped in and said, "Hey, that's what we're going to give." And what I love is use DC and Ryan's work that Daniel Pink popularized in Drive where you said, "Hey, people want choices."
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
With increased competence comes the desire for more autonomy, but it has to be autonomy within the parameters of, "What's the mission of the school?" You mentioned there were three words that you chose at the school. What were those three words? I didn't hear you say them, did I? Did you share them?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah. Yeah, so the three words that we kind of navigated through and found in the original charter were flexibility, service, and connection. We actually voted on those words as a new staff, and we voted then to create norms and expectations for each other.
I can't remember all five my first year, but I remember one was see a need, fill a need. Our norms we've created now five years in a row, and we have staff norms that we work on together on our first day back to school where we vote, make tallies. We do a whole lesson on norms and expectations. Then the expectation is that in every meeting, in every sit-down, in every coffee bar chat, we're going to talk about norms and expectations, including with our parents, with our students. It's become just, well, for a better word, a norm in our system where we just always start with expectations. I think that really started us and grounded us, maybe focusing on the work. Flexibility, service, connection, every decision we make runs through those three words, and obviously that goes so well with the work of collective leadership. It was a win for sure.
Jon Eckert:
Well, what I love there, you just described Bill Coon, who is principal at Meadow Glen, I don't know if-
Ann Marie Taylor:
Oh my God, by the way, I'm a fangirl for Dr. Coon as well.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. He talks about the three buckets, and if it doesn't fit in those three buckets, they don't do it. We need more of those three bucket principles.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Flexibility, service, connection. I also love that you saw that you had the see a need, fill a need because that follows that tenet of collective leadership, that leadership's not about the position or the person, it's about the work.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
If you see that need and you fill that need and you do that with others, and others are following you and you're walking alongside, then you're leading.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right, right.
Jon Eckert:
Why are we hung up on who's the official leader, who's not? See a need, fill a need. That's what leaders do, and that changes the culture of the school or builds the culture, in your case, because you all were starting from that place.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That creates a very different dynamic where people aren't sitting around waiting for you as the lead learner to be telling them how they should be learning and what they should be leading. It's "We're doing this together." I think that's pretty powerful.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, and what's ironic about it is now they don't need me really. Sometimes I walk around and think, "God, the school board could fire me today and these guys would be just fine." But I guess that's what I've been trying to build, so I'm thankful that they don't necessarily need me in the same ways. Because their coaching skills have gotten so good over the years, I find myself a lot of times trying to copy them because they're just smarter than me now. I'm so thankful for that part.
Jon Eckert:
What you described, in my mind, is the ideal leader in a learning organization.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
You want them to not be dependent on you. You want to add value, but you want to have created these networks and webs that function regardless if you're there or not. Today you're home with a kid who needs you, and I'm sure Horse Creek Academy ran smoothly.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
That's powerful.
Ann Marie Taylor:
That's really a huge win. Honestly, that's what I'd worked towards because I knew what that looked like.
The other thing I think that's interesting is that we've kind of taken the work of CLI to a level that maybe even others haven't yet. Let me give you an example. We have three paraprofessionals on our leadership team that make just as many decisions as I do every day. These are people that don't necessarily have advanced degrees, but immediately when we got to know them, saw intense leadership capacity. It was like, "Let me get out of your way and figure out how you can do this." It's been so beautiful to watch folks that had always been, for example, a traditional teaching assistant in a special ed classroom, and would never move out of that pay grade or leadership level, to take on positions that are critical to the organization. Because of that, I can take a back burner with a lot of different things and spend an hour and a half of my day teaching students and reminding myself how hard it is and how intense it is and how important the relationship is.
When I have conversations with teachers, I can say, "Yeah, I totally get it," because I have 47 of them and they're pretty tough and most days I don't win. Some days I think I'm winning an Emmy and they're looking at me like they're not interested. That has been critical. It's not like I come into sub, it's like I have a credit-bearing course every single day that I show up to. What's even more ironic is that I teach it in an open area in our commons, so I get traffic throughout. I didn't cap the class. Most of our classes are 19 or less and I have 47, so I have to be on because I'm in front of everyone and they are watching me. It forces me to be a better version of myself as a teacher.
I learned that through the South Carolina Teacher of the Year program back in the day when people watched what we were doing, I innately got better. As a special ed teacher with no one ever watching you, you can really take a downward spiral in a lot of different ways. But because everybody was watching me because I was Teacher of the Year, I had to be on, and yeah, magically, it really made me a great teacher. That's how I feel now. Even when I want to be down and not really engaged and don't want to give it my all, I have to. That was on purpose too, so that's another strategy, but ...
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Well, the wisdom that comes, and I appreciate the humility in your description of why you do what you do, but having been Teacher of the Year and having had that recognition, clearly you know how to engage students and the best leaders that I know either really miss the classroom or they never leave it.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Right.
Jon Eckert:
You haven't left it and that's one of my favorite stories I've ever heard. 90 minutes a day in an open area with 47 students.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, 9th through 12th, by the way.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. That's going to challenge any educator and to put yourself out there for others to see it, it not only allows you to remember what it is to be in the classroom, it builds so much credibility that, "Our leader or one of our leaders is doing this work alongside of us and in a way that anybody can see it." I think that goes a long way to building culture.
One of the things you mentioned before we jumped on about is your idea about moving too fast. Sometimes you feel like maybe you move too fast, but then you question, well, maybe that's just part of the kind of innovating and iterating that you're doing. What do you mean you might've moved too fast?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, I think the first few years of this work, we lost some people along the way. They had to jump off because we were moving too fast. They had to take a break because change was happening too frequently or they just weren't a fit. I think there was this, as an educator, we have this weird guilt and shame over almost every decision we make. I don't know if that's typical, but for me it was like, "God, people are leaving. I'm not the favorite. This isn't the best." Those kinds of things.
We had significant growth. To give you perspective, we had like 467 students when I got there, and this year we're at 1400.
Jon Eckert:
Wow.
Ann Marie Taylor:
We had insane growth, right overshadowing what happened with COVID or happening at the same time. I was building buildings, adding a high school, adding a career center. It was like drinking from the water hose, just 90 miles an hour. We lost people along the way and so I had some guilt and shame about moving too fast. But then I look back and think, "My God, if I wasn't risk-taking or being innovative or forcing people to move, number one, people might've stayed that shouldn't have." That's a harsh, honest reality. And it was clear where we were going, and sometimes we had to paddle and hold our heads just right above water because it wasn't perfect the whole way because we were making so much change and growing so fast.
For six months I had all of our high school and middle schoolers, when our building wasn't finished, at a church in a sanctuary and in a common space where we were all teaching. I thought, "This is crazy. I don't know why we've moved this fast. We're six months and we don't have our building, blah, blah, blah." But it built so much culture and climate collectiveness, and we were weaved in a way that we hadn't been before. That's really a lot of where we got to know each other, in that sanctuary and in that main space.
Even though you look along the way and think, "Wow, it's been a wild ride," you can look back and think, "Well, that's what innovation looks like a little bit." If you want to be a risk-taker and be innovative, sometimes you have to feel like you're drowning just for a little bit.
Good news is it wasn't just me. I had a team of 30 people on a leadership team. At least we could hold each other while we were drowning instead of me being by myself, and so really don't know if we'd survive without collective leadership.
Jon Eckert:
Well, and I think that's right. I have one phrase in the Leading Together book, "It's not that many hands make light work, it's many hands make the work possible."
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
When you're going that fast, you can't go that fast on your own. You're going to lose some people on the way and while you're losing people, which is sad to lose people, maybe they were not the right people to be on the bus, as Jim Collins talks about in Good to Great. It may be that fast-moving, we have a lot of kids who need what we're providing and we're providing it in these awkward spaces, but we're going to do it, that makes you really appreciative when you get into a space that's not everybody in a sanctuary or in the-
Ann Marie Taylor:
Oh, gosh.
Jon Eckert:
... common space. I think that builds culture. You don't do it in order to build culture, but because of the work you did that created a very different dynamic for the people that were there at Horse Creek, that then feeds the people who come in because you know what you're coming into. This isn't a place to just sit back and relax.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, what's funny is now when I interview people, I've gotten to be blatantly honest. "Here's what it looks like." I'm like, "Hey, you'll probably never have a title that you're looking for and you might not even have an office. I know for sure we'll give you a desk and chair to sit somewhere at some point, but that's kind of how we roll." We have to be super-flexible because of the growth and so a lot of us don't have classrooms and share spaces and all those kinds of things. But I wouldn't have it any other way because when you walk in, there's an energy and a beauty and almost like it feels like a miracle to me just because I've been in so many schools and so many classrooms, and I know that it feels that way to other people because they tell me. I forget along the way until I visit somewhere else and come back. But it is very ... There's lots of movement, there's lots of energy, there's lots of relationship. Most nights I go to bed and pray that this will last just a little longer because I know it's not typical. Then the other side of me is like, "Oh my gosh, we have to announce this to the world because we are single-handedly going to save the profession. "
Jon Eckert:
Love that. Go with that to latter impulse there. I do think we need to trumpet these things because there are places like Horse Creek around that are doing these things, and the world has a great need for it.
I think I mentioned this when I was with you all. I was at a UNESCO conference where I was speaking and it was trying to address the fact that there are 250 million school age kids who do not have a school to go to. A place like Horse Creek is truly a blessing and so you need to lean into that and love the fact that that's what you've built. I think what I'd like to move to now is just our lightning round to see how well you can do this.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Uh-oh.
Jon Eckert:
Word, sentence, or phrase, we'll go with four or five questions here.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Okay.
Jon Eckert:
First one, what is the worst piece of advice you've either given or received?
Ann Marie Taylor:
Worst piece of advice I was ever given is, "Start the year in August like you hate them and then discipline will be in check by December."
Jon Eckert:
Yeah, no. Yeah.
Ann Marie Taylor:
That's not me. If I'm going to do the opposite of what they tell me, I'm going to make sure I'm good at it. The opposite of that, of course, would be, "Man, build relationships from the moment you get them so that they will eat from your hands," so to speak. That was definitely the worst advice I've ever been given. But man, old, veteran teachers always want to tell you that when you first start.
Jon Eckert:
I know. 80% of the people that come on our podcast, that's the piece of advice that they're given that's bad and it's so sad. I love in your bio that you have is the "Lead learner, Horse Creek Academy. Ann Marie is a hot mess, in a fabulous way of course." That's welcoming because we're all kind of a hot mess when we're honest and that welcomes people in and makes them feel that.
What's the best piece of advice you've either given or received?
Ann Marie Taylor:
My very first year going to get, so I have an undergraduate in criminal justice, and I have a master's in arts of teaching students with learning disabilities. I'm getting this master's degree. I've been to Catholic school my whole life, never been in a public school before. They don't have a classroom with kids with learning disabilities, but they have this little classroom in Florence, South Carolina with kids with severe and profound disabilities that I was going to do my student teaching in.
I walked in to ... I can pick on her because she knows I pick on her, but she would wear, Kathy, my mentor, long dresses, angry special ed teacher, been doing this forever, doesn't really make eye contact. I was scared to death. It's the advice I've lived with, she said, "My job as your teacher is to make you better than I was ever as a teacher." I think about Kathy all the time and think about the people I work with and just making them better. That was advice that I think, God, has been used in every facet of my life.
Jon Eckert:
I love that. That's a beautiful image for a teacher.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, she's amazing.
Jon Eckert:
Yeah. What's one of your favorite books you've read in the last year? It could be education-related, it could be anything.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Oh, probably either a book called Joy.
Jon Eckert:
Mm.
Ann Marie Taylor:
It was the Dalai Lama, and I'm not remembering the other author, so forgive me, but I was doing some research because second semester I teach Psychology of Happiness. I was doing some research on joy, and that was pretty powerful. But a book that I just reread that is my all-time favorite book ever, at least right now, is Dare to Lead by Brene Brown.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, yeah. It's hard to beat that.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah, those two have been important. I've been reading a lot on happiness because here I am, I'm going to teach this class, and I really don't know anything other than what I heard on a happiness podcast by Dr. Laurie Santos. I had to read a whole bunch of happiness books to try to get my material together.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Well, that's great. I always differentiate joy and happiness, that happiness is circumstantial, but joy is something that can be deep and profound and abiding. Yes, the Dalai Lama and Desmond Tutu.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yes, there you go.
Jon Eckert:
They wrote the Book of Joy. Yeah, it has to be fascinating to get that take.
The next thing, I guess two last questions. What's the biggest challenge you see ahead for educators? We've been in CLI, you've been in for five years, I've been studying you for eight years. I see your data every year because the one who writes it up and reports on it. There's a lot of great things going on at Horse Creek, but what do you see as the biggest challenge facing educators right now?
Ann Marie Taylor:
If we don't figure out a way to celebrate and honor our teachers, I have a fear that the profession is going to dwindle down to a room or a school full of substitutes. I feel so lucky that I have no positions for next year. I feel so lucky that we've already hired and done all that, but the only reason we're in that position is because we do things different. We have onsite daycare for our staff, babies and toddlers, which is such a huge win. No faculty meetings, podcasting. I spend $4,000 a month on our coffee bar to make sure that we have creamer and coffee and snacks at every building. Full-length pictures. I could go on and on with the little things, but I feel like if people don't do something drastically different, we are not going to be winning and I just think that there are way too many great educators out there to not be winning at this.
I don't mean winning just with test scores.
Jon Eckert:
No.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Test scores are important and we have been making gains, but to say that I'm not an excellent school, it's funny to me. Yeah, our report card's not excellent yet in South Carolina, and it will be at some point. But for me, if we don't as school leaders and school leadership teams and even districts start measuring other things, I think we're going to lose what we have. I think there's more to measure. I love to talk about our efficacy data. I love to talk about our student retention and our teacher retention rates. I love to talk about case studies and scenarios of kids and teachers and relationships and how things are different. I think there's so much more than the state-driven report card, and I think it's time to start talking about it because I don't think we're going to be around if we don't.
Jon Eckert:
Well, yeah, and your efficacy data is off the charts, and we know that's the single biggest factor John Hattie's team found for impacting those student learning outcomes, so totally agree. I definitely feel that challenge as well. I think that's real. But what's your greatest hope right now for education as you look at it through the lens of Horse Creek and your experience as South Carolina Teacher of the Year, all the different hats you've worn? What gives you the most hope?
Ann Marie Taylor:
The relationships that we have with our students and that they have with one another. I can think about our graduating class this year or our 400 high school students, and I think about their ability to work together and be creative and be innovative. There's great hope in that, that there's going to be a handful of people that really do expect voice and choice, and they're not going to stand for it otherwise. In my generation, teachers will stand for a whole lot that they shouldn't. We accept lack of autonomy, and we accept moving in a snail's pace sometimes and these kids won't. For that, amen. I feel like there could be some real innovation and change because they're not going to stand for it. They have boundaries set and good for them because I never did that.
Jon Eckert:
Yes. Love that, that's a great place to wrap up. I love that we focus on relationships and kids, and there's a lot of great stuff going on. We just need to highlight that and get off our negativity bias.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Yeah.
Jon Eckert:
Dr. Ann Marie Taylor, thank you for being with us today. Thanks for all you do.
Ann Marie Taylor:
Well, just lean in to the fact that you're a nerd fangirl situation here, and I'm so thankful for people that spend their time doing research to help us navigate what this looks like and to navigate it well, because your research and what you've done matters. I just am so thankful and I know everybody at Horse Creek is thankful as well.
Jon Eckert:
Oh, well, hey, thank you. It's great to highlight your work.
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