Can feminism be African? With Minna Salami and Nolita Mvunelo

What does freedom look like for African women in a world shaped by crisis, colonial legacies, and patriarchy? How does African feminism take shape across the continent, from urban political centres to rural communities? And is feminism rooted in African values, or has it too often been misrepresented and misunderstood? 

In this episode Nolita Mvunelo sits down with Minna Salami, feminist author and social critic,  to explore identity, liberation and justice. Together, they explore how African feminist thought can fuel planetary wellbeing, challenge patriarchy and imagine radically inclusive futures.  

Watch the episode:

Full transcript:

Nolita: Welcome to 'We Kinda Need a Revolution', a special limited series of The Club of Rome Podcast where we explore bold, intergenerational ideas for shaping sustainable futures. I am Nolita Mvunelo, a Program Manager at The Club of Rome, and in this episode, I'm excited to be joined by feminist author, social critic and member of The Club of Rome, Minna Salami, the Program Chair at THE NEW INSTITUTE. Together, we unpack the central question of her powerful book and essay, Can Feminism be African, exploring how African feminism offers a unique lens to understand ideas of freedom, identity and power in a world shaped by crisis. We dive into class and generational tensions, the influence of colonial legacies and the personal experiences that inform Minna's vision of what it means to truly be free. Hi, Mina, how are you doing?

Minna: I'm very well. Thank you. How are you?

Nolita:  I'm good. Thank you so much for joining us. What brought you to the work that you do?

Minna: I have always been someone who was very observant and opinionated at the same time, and from a very early age, one of the ways in which I expressed that was through writing. So already, as a child, I would write little columns in like my school magazine, and they were typically about topics that had to do with society, like I lived in Nigeria. So, you know, I wrote pieces about democracy in my country, or whatever, stuff like that. And so when I discovered the the technology of blogging in the early knots, I automatically and very spontaneously set one up. This was probably around 2006 and then that sort of evolved. And then in 2010 I launched my what became my blog, which I still have, called MsAfropolitan.

Nolita: One of the key essays that you wrote was about feminism being African. What is African feminism in your definition?

Minna: Well, African feminism is, by large, like all feminism in that it wants to abolish the patriarchy. You know, that is the key philosophy of all feminism, is that it is anti patriarchal and sees male dominance as something that is harmful and detrimental to social progress. And so I preface because it's important to understand that, you know, African feminism, in that sense, shares the same same intentions and motivations as all feminism does. What makes it specific is, of course, its connection to the continent. Patriarchy, you know, it looks and feels and operates in somewhat different ways in relation to Africa, which means, for example, that African feminism is concerned more with tradition than maybe a kind of white Western feminism might be. It is certainly much more concerned with fighting imperialism and neo colonialism, because these are things about the global order which have negative impacts on African women's lives. So African feminism, to sort of try to sum it up, which is a very difficult thing to do, is feminism that is concerned with all the many different issues that affect African women's lives, from patriarchy to tradition to imperialism to the global order.

Nolita: It's incredibly complex. I think reading some of your work and being a young African woman myself, a lot of it resonates with me. To your point that you're making about it being about questioning traditions, what types of traditions have you witnessed that made you think, actually, there's a bit of nuance here, and how do they show up in urban centers versus rural life? Because I noticed also in my own lived experience, that how a woman shows up in the rural space versus how I show up living in a city are very different. And so my expressions of who I am, my liberties and my freedoms are very much like in line with, as you said, imperialism and traditions, etc.

Minna: I mean, I think I should first of all say that I grew up in in the city in Lagos, so my experiences of rural Africa are limited. So, yeah, tradition in Africa, it's such a complicated and paradoxical space, because many of the traditions that may be harmful for African women's lives may also contain elements of empowerment. You know, because we are a continent whose history has so much been negated through the transatlantic slave trade, through the colonial narratives. We've lost so much of of our history, really, and with that, of course, also traditions. And there's something I think, quite empowering and enriching about recuperating many of those traditions. I mean, there's traditions, for instance, in Yorubaland, which is where my ancestry is, of women having, like female only, political alliances in which they would come together and reflect and then also strategize and have a real impact on the rulers, the kings and the chiefs of the particular communitie. And these traditions are, and were, of course, very empowering in some way, but at the same time, they were part of a patriarchal structure in which it was like in the Yoruba lineage, there has been one female Ooni. The Ooni is the sort of highest, the royal king of Yorubaland. So this is a very male dominant and patriarchal lineage. And so we can see with this tradition that, you know, it sort of gives women power to some extent, but it also sits within a kind of culture that is disempowering to women at the same time.

Nolita: Do you have any insight on how to go about handling these types of tensions? I mean, a crude way to say it is, like a criticism that I hear a lot, is this feminism thing, it's a Western thing. It's a white people thing. We have to honor our traditions and our culture. But how do we do both?

Minna: Yes, this is absolutely very much at the crux of African feminism and the African feminist movement, because since its inception in the 1970s as an explicit political movement for women's liberation in Africa and the diaspora, there has been a vast backlash against feminism in the continent. And the underlying argument, and of the backlash, is precisely this notion that feminism is not something that is, you know, home to Africa, it's a Western import. It's unAfrican you know, there's all these kinds of very harmful and ungrounded positions, that that that nevertheless have had a wide traction, but nevertheless so within African feminism, I mean, there's just been so many answers to your question, you know. And It really depends on which feminist you're speaking with which region they're in, as you asked previously, about like rural Africa versus urban Africa, I think the way in which we negotiate and negate space, valuing and even loving our indigenous traditions vis a vis how we, you know, respond to our real desires to express autonomy over our bodies, over our choices, over the ways that we think and live our lives. You know, there's really a tension there. You know, it's not an easy thing to there's no straightforward answer, in a sense, but I do think that it's very important to do the latter and and, and to the extent that indigenous traditions present obstacles to a woman being able to thrive and express agency, then I would choose the expression of agency, and maybe therein that's where there are possibilities to draw inspiration from indigenous traditions without maybe embodying them fully. I remember reading a very wonderful article by South African or Zimbabwean writer, Sisonke. I cannot pronounce her surname, Simang, I think it is pronounced something like that. But she writes about this kind of practice of the dowry at a wedding, you know, which is a very patriarchal practice, tradition. But she somehow, like, I can't remember the exact details, but she incorporates this into her wedding in a way that feels empowering and that is empowering. So, you know, there's a way to negate these, these spaces, I think

Nolita: I'd be very interested to read that on how to make it empowering, because that is very much a tradition that's still practiced in my culture. And there have been, like, incredibly heated debates about that, about why are we still buying women? Or, you know, whatever perception there is, how are we forging pathways towards the future without spending too much time venerating the past? Which brings me to my question about African feminism as an opportunity to bring forth while being on a healthy planet. Is there a connection between the those two things, and what are the opportunities that it presents for for us?

Minna: Our planet and our environment is absolutely one of the very important issues for African feminism at large. Because for one, you know, Africa contributes, I think it is 2% it's like between 2 and 5% of global warming, right? I mean, and yet, the continent is so much impacted by what happens, you know, to our climate and from other continents, contribution to global warming. And so climate change impacts African women's lives detrimentally. Women in the continent are responsible for so much of agriculture and farming, and you know, all of the the professions that are related to the land. And so climate change, of course, you know, is impoverishing a lot of women in the continent. And yet, at the same time, there's this cultural narrative about how you know women generally, but specifically African Women's bodies are just so much connected to the soil. You know, there's this really romantic imagery about Mother Africa, and that's, you know, of course, you know, often shaped as the continent and as a woman at the same time. And so again, you know, it's, how do we grapple with this tension where, on the one hand, the African woman is so much revered and positioned as a solution, even to how we deal with, you know, connecting to our planet, and yet, at the same time, her needs and her knowledge about the planet is negated by patriarchal cultures.

Nolita: Yeah, that's such a big risk. I feel that all the time, you know the overburden and over responsibility that is placed on African women when it comes to the challenge of climate change or just generally, going towards well being in the future. And then at the same time, the added complexity is that there will be this demographic boom that's coming very soon. And so on top of being, like, the most agriculturally active, and we're seeing a lot of data about, like, young black women being the most educated and making a lot of money, etc, and then on top of that, the coming burden of parenthood of 75% of all Africans being under the age of 30, I worry about how much of a responsibility there is on African women, but also young African women in general. Is this something that you have reflected on, and if so, how do you think that it changes the dynamics socially, whether it is about the patriarchy and feminist discourse in general, but also how we organize various social structures across the continent.

Minna: Well, I think this speaks to the urgency of African feminist work even more. I mean, the thought of the status quo being maintained in such a future, fills me with dread, because at the moment, you know, the kind of implications of patriarchy on African women's lives is so destructive and painful and dangerous, which is not to kind of paint an image of gloom, because, of course, I think, you know, we are such a resourceful continent, and women in the continent and the diaspora are especially just so strong, so resilient, but also so imaginative and brilliant. As you say, like, I didn't actually know about this, this statistic about black women soon being like the most educated demographic. So, you know, I do feel that we will continue to tap into that inner well of strength and power and imagination, but if we don't really sort of accelerate and fortify the feminist movement, I fear that so much of that will just be part of empowering a patriarchal structure.

Nolita: You are listening to The Club of Rome podcast, the place to discover bold ideas from change makers tackling the world's biggest challenges, from climate crisis and inequality to systems change. The podcast is nearly a year old now, and we have an archive of episodes that include the universal basic dividend, using music for social change and women silencing the guns. You can find them on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Now, back to the discussion.

So what do you say to younger women who might be pushing back on this? As a digital native on Tiktok, I see a lot of the, you know, young women saying, I'm just a girl, you know, I I don't need to worry and pay attention to all of this. You know, they were parts of patriarchy that made a lot of sense and that it didn't have to be my burden and my responsibility to figure some of these things out. I just you know needed to take care of what I needed to take care and let everyone else deal with it. What would be your feedback and your advice to such a young lady?

Minna: That kind of carefreeness that underlies that sentiment, you know, that feeling that, oh, I'm just a girl, I don't need feminism, is something that I actually cherish. And I think, you know, ironically, that that is the result of feminist work. It's because feminists have pushed for women to be able to express themselves and yeah. So to an extent, I see that as a kind of positive sign of the success of the feminist movement. But primarily what I think that is proof of is the strength of the backlash that I mentioned earlier, because it has been a very successful backlash in context of Africa. So, you know, it's, it's not surprising that young women are saying no to feminism. You know, they're getting messages, and Tiktok is especially like that has become such a repository for the backlash, because it's, it's the perfect medium, because you don't have to get in to the depth of the arguments you're making. So so it's really easy for these anti feminist propagandists to create, like, effective emotion inspiring clips about how the feminist movement is, you know, connected to the CIA, or whatever they might be saying. So, yeah, so I can see that. But I also, I guess I think that, you know, there comes a point where, for almost all women, you know, you start to really question these things. Maybe it's when these women go into professional life or or when they get married, or when they become mothers, you know, depending on the kinds of choices they make. I think in every woman's life, there comes a point when you know, however much you've been avoiding it, the patriarchy stands there right in front of you, presenting its obstacles, and at that point you kind of have to take a stance. And quite often it's at that point that women say, okay, maybe I should listen to what the feminists have been saying. But feminism, you asked, like, what role it plays in this? And I do think that there's a sense in which the feminist movement, unwittingly, has taken on the tone of policing to to an extent which you know can make it seem undesirable for young women, especially because when you're young, when you're a teenager or in your 20s, the last thing you want is rules you know, like that's a period of freedom in one in one's life, where you just want to enjoy life, explore life, as much as you can. And so anything that is telling you that do not do this, do this, etc, can become a bit of a, you know, of a heavy burden. And feminism is not that, you know it's actually a place of no rules. It's because it's a place that is enabling women to express themselves without being disempowered. But somehow, I think the message has been miscommunicated to some extent, and that might also be part of the issue here.

Nolita: There is a question of how this conversation is happening with young men, and how it's happening, I mean, how it has happened with men, but how it's happening with young men in general. Because sometimes, I think a lot of this pushback that's coming in from younger generations is that we're at the age where we're trying to be partnered, and men were not included in the rules. They were not included in the discourse. And so when you're trying to, you know, build community, build a personal relationship, etc, if half of all people do not know what you're talking about, do not necessarily agreed or not clued up into the discourse, then you're kind of fighting upstream. You know, we're back to, like, an additional burden on young women or women in general. So parenting, climate change, agriculture, resilience, etc, etc. And then now there are people who are in you're in an intimate relationship with who don't agree with your self perception of yourself. What could have what could have been improved, and what can be improved at this point in time? What are the concrete opportunities to collaborate and partner with all parts of society to make some of this progress.

Minna: I think first of all, you know it is, it is curious that so many young men, especially would not be clued into feminism. Feminism has become so, so mainstreamed for better or for worse again, but it has become so mainstreamed that if you are a university educated African person, as you say, you know, then you should know about it. And it makes me think that there's something else going on which is more of a sort of active decision to not pay attention to feminism, because for large parts of the male demographic, young male demographic, it may be antithetical to the way in which they prefer to conduct their relationships, which is to be, you know, the dominant person to to have all the privileges and the entitlements that have always accompanied male identity. So that's the first thing, and I think it's important to state that, because that then speaks to what a potential way forward might be, which definitely, in my view, would not be that young women then denounce feminism because young men don't know what it is and find it difficult. I mean, you know that that, of course, is, you know, a very central problem to feminism, and has always been, that that women, women shy away from the feminist movement because they're afraid that they won't find a partner if they're heterosexual. And I mean that dynamic keeps women stuck in dissatisfying, unhappy and often also, you know, really harmful relationship patterns. So it's really important to move away from this. And I think understanding that men, quite often, just don't want to engage. It's not that they don't know, it's that they don't want to know and and that helps us to make better choices, because there are men who you know, who have a curiosity, at least, I find it very interesting, because I speak about feminism across the globe, and the one place where the audiences are almost equal of both genders is in Africa or in the diaspora, like black contexts. And so there really is an interest, even if a lot of the times that the men who come to feminist events, you know, have problematic views or whatever, but they come. And so I say that because I think that you know, for one you know, women should be encouraged to make choices in which you can talk with your partner about the things that matter to you. And if feminism is one of those things, then you need to choose partners with whom you can have feminist discussions. Otherwise, you're going to have to censor yourself for as long as you're in that relationship.

Nolita: We we like. Some time ago, we spoke to Aya Chebbi, and she was the first youth envoy to the African Union, and she spoke a lot about the Tunisian revolution and how financial freedom was underpinning their revolution, that at the core it was a discussion of democracy and freedoms, etc, but it had a lot to do about personal freedoms. Are there any fundamental desires and changes that you believe are common amongst African feminists today, like what unites African feminists, and what goes across borders and struggles, is it also as fundamental as financial freedom makes the difference?

Minna: I'm glad you mentioned Aya, because I really love her work. She's she's doing some amazing things. And yes, I mean, I agree with her that, like economic freedom, financial freedom is certainly one of the things, one of the desires that feminists across the continent and the world share, you know, like we it's such a big problem, you know, and it's really one of these feminist issues that has become so bogged down with a kind of NGO, you know, technocratic World Bank type of speak, and so we hear it, and we almost like the brain just puts it aside, like, oh yeah. But, you know, it's really a very, you know, it's a psychological and to some extent, even a spiritual problem. Like, if you cannot have if you don't have the means and even the opportunities with which you can empower yourself financially, then you really are dependent on those in power. And those in power, of course, are predominantly men. And this goes across class as well. So you know, if you are part of the poorest bracket, you would still, as a woman, be even poorer than a man in that class demographic, so to speak. And so you're you're without economic independence. You are so dependent on men, and they can, of course, take advantage of that in multiple ways. So I think this is a key. The issue for the feminist movement, and will always be, until we achieve economic equality. But there are so many. I mean, I think all of the feminist issues, you know, like, there's the desires for sexual autonomy, both in terms of like pleasure and choice, but also in terms of sexual expression. You know, queer people wanting to have rights to exist, which, you know is being so compromised in Africa at the moment by populist governments. And then there's desires for epistemic freedom. You know, this is a topic that is features very deeply in my work, working on knowledge production, and just that desire to be able to shape knowledge, because knowledge is so fundamental to how we structure our culture and our societies, there's desires to change tradition, to free Africa from neo colonial exploitation, so that we can own our own resources in ways that then empower women and girls, because, you know, it's one thing for governments to claim back resources, which is already not happening enough. But then when it does happen, the question of, you know, exclusion of girls and women is still not brought up. So there's this desire for political representation so that women can have a real impact on African political life. So yeah, I mean, I just think, you know, there's so many issues, sadly, that we that we share in common, a frustration about

Nolita: And so it brings me to one of my last few questions, which is, so why did you join the Club of Rome, and is there anything in particular you hoped it would help you accomplish in joining the association?

Minna: I mean, joining the Club of Rome for me was really heartfelt Yes, from the moment that I was nominated and invited. The Club of Rome aligns so much with the things that I am passionate about. So you know, speaking again of struggle for epistemological freedom, for different ways of knowing, this has been something that I have been working on for years, and I really appreciate and value the holistic approach of the Club of Rome and this, this multi layered, you know, non binary, way of thinking about how we can change systems and change social relations. So I feel very much of an alignment with the ethos of the Club of Rome. And then I also joined because of the amazing people that are part of the Club of Rome. You know, I've met many who are just incredible. But also, you know, sometimes just participating in the online conversations, or even just like checking out the work that other members are doing. And, you know, getting updates about that is, is very inspiring. So it's, it's really one of my, my favorite places to to hang out, so to speak.

Nolita: Awesome. This limited series is called 'We Kinda Need a Revolution'. So if you could imagine one key non violent revolution that you could spark by the click of a hand, what would it be?

Minna: I mean, this is so easy. It's feminism, like, you know this, this ad, I think it's Maybelline? That has this slogan of like, their one of their mascaras is like, one woman buys this every minute. And every time I see that, I think this is how I want feminism to be, you know, like feminism, one woman signs up every minute. And I don't mean to, like, commodify or make this, you know, maybe somewhat strange analogy, but, but really, that's the revolution that I am very much for and that I'm a part of, and that I really want everyone to join. I think it could deeply and importantly transform our world.

Nolita: Thank you so much Minna and thank you for listening to The Club of Rome podcast. Follow us on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Learn more about The Club of Rome at clubofrome.org