Religion & Spirituality
4 Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life With Your Spouse With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Jennifer Konzen
2018-09-17
Hey friends, many of you already know that marriage and family therapy is my background, and in graduate school, my specialization was Christian sex therapy. My professors and supervisors had such a profound impact on me. So I wanted to share all of them with you, in addition to a few other professional contacts I've made over the years.
I think this is such an important subject that we're actually going to camp out here all week and bring you multiple speakers on this very topic. So I hope you enjoyed this week-long series on sexual wholeness.
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Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
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Laura Dugger: Thank you for tuning in today as we have the privilege to hear from Dr. Jennifer Konzen. I want to let you know right away that this content is intended for adult listeners as we will be discussing sexual intimacy in marriage. Please use discernment if you have little ears present.
Also, this content was designed for couples who are not currently in crisis. If you are in crisis, we would recommend seeking professional local help as soon as possible.
Dr. Konzen has an impressive bio because she is a certified sex therapist, award-winning researcher, international speaker, adjunct professor, author, wife, and mother.
Today she addresses topics related to overcoming difficulties connecting physically, gender differences related to arousal and desire, and ways to add pizzazz into the marital relationship. [00:02:01] I hope you leave our talk today equipped and encouraged.
Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode.
Laura Dugger: Welcome, Dr. Konzen.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, thank you for having me.
Laura Dugger: We are so honored to have you chat with us today. Let's start by laying the foundation for our chat. What does God have to say about sex?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's funny because people think there's not much in the Bible about sex, actually. Most people will say it says don't have it till you're married and don't ever turn your husband down. And that's about it.
You know, there's a lot more that the Bible has to say with sex, which actually both of those have different questions to them. God says a lot about sex. He actually devotes an entire book of the Bible to it. The Song of Solomon is full of sensuality and sexuality. [00:03:00]
So I mean, bottom line, when I'm talking about what God does say about sex, I talk about the overarching view of sexuality within the scriptures. You can see that painted throughout different parts of the Bible.
One of my favorites, this is out of Piper and Taylor's Sex and the Supremacy of Christ, is where they explain how when you look at Ezekiel 16 and Ezekiel 23, God's actually addressing the nation of Israel, and He is talking about their idolatry. But he's using the language of adultery.
And it's amazing because when you look at it, He is explaining idolatry by using pictures that we get if you're in a married relationship, if you're thinking of getting married. The idea of a spouse being unfaithful, and many who are married have experienced unfaithfulness in their marriages, there's just nothing like the pain of adultery. [00:04:01]
God uses this sexual language. He uses the language of adultery in very explicit sexual terms to show us His heart. He wants us to know Him. And that's just really helpful to me. Sexuality isn't this like God's over here and we're over here.
You know, you even look at the terms in Matthew 1:25 and Genesis 4:1, those are the terms where it says, Joseph did not ginosko Mary. He did not know Mary, in the Greek, until Jesus was born. And it says in Genesis 4:1, Adam yada Eve. Adam did not know Eve. It's actually the same word in two different languages that means "to know".
And when you look at the use of that word throughout both the Old and New Testament, it's talking about a deep intimate knowing of. But that's the word that God uses to describe sexuality, this deep, intimate knowing.
So when you look at the overarching view of sexuality, scripturally as far as your question about what does God have to say about it, is that He uses sexuality to connect with us at a heart level. [00:05:08] He wants us to know Him.
And then when He describes sexuality, it's about this deep, intimate knowing. It's really important to understand that because sexuality isn't just about the physical act. It's the whole intimate connection between us and another.
Actually that word "to know", ginosko and yada, it's the same word that describes our relationship with God when it says "I know the Father and the Father knows me. I know the sheep and they know my voice." It's the same word ginosko there.
So that intimate knowing of one another, that's actually the same intimate knowing between Jesus and God, us and God, not because that relationship with God and Jesus is sexual, but because the depth of intimate connection between them is what's supposed to be happening in the sexual relationship.
So God's view of sexuality is not at all negative. [00:06:04] It's very, very positive. And it is a way that He then connects with us at a heart level.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that is beautifully said. Thank you so much for all the background information, and that is an example-
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. That's a full conference in about two minutes.
Laura Dugger: There you go. And speaking of conferences, you do a lot of this and meet with a lot of clients. What sexual education do you often share with people?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, sexual education is vital when I'm working with people. And I think it's vital for most individuals because we don't actually know, number one, how it works, and we don't necessarily know what is common and what I would call normative. So what's normal.
So a lot of times people are confused by their bodies or they're confused by what's happening with their spouse. Like, why isn't this working? [00:07:00] A lot of the time when I'm working with men and women, I have to do some educating because there's a misunderstanding of how the sexual body works.
Well, the part of it has to do with how long it takes to stimulate somebody to achieve an orgasm. So it takes two to five minutes for the typical male to reach orgasm, and males need direct stimulation to the penis to reach orgasm.
Women, on the other hand, when you ask, okay, how long does it take for women to reach orgasm, it takes about 20 to 30 minutes for the typical female. And the challenge with that is people tend to think that women reach orgasm... that all women reach orgasm during intercourse. And that's not even statistically true. Only about 30% of women reach orgasm through intercourse.
So if you're expecting that I'm going to have an orgasm through intercourse, you're going to have a slight math problem there. It takes men two to five minutes, it takes women 20 to 30. [00:08:02] So if you're expecting intercourse to get you to orgasm and he's... and this comes up with couples. He's, you know, not lasting long enough.
And I've heard this from wives or I've heard husbands who are frustrated that their wives are not reaching orgasm. So you have to do a lot of education around the stimulation specifically, yes, to the female genitalia, that women need really indirect touch. In fact, if you do go directly to the clitoris and vigorously stimulate it, most women will go, Stop.
So the indirect touch for women is more meaning the caressing to the entire vulva versus the direct stimulation for men to the penile region. Not only is that difference in where and the type, indirect versus direct, but also in the length of time. So this one piece, educating restimulation is usually pretty helpful.
Laura Dugger: That's a great intro. [00:09:00] And even in your book, you will show the pictures of the anatomy and describe exactly what you're talking about.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Right. Yeah. And that's vital because most women actually don't know where their body parts are, where their sexual body parts are. They're not sure where they urinate from. They don't know where their urethra is. And then men don't know these things either about women.
In fact, when I put up the picture of the vulva in conferences, and sometimes I've had a huge screen and the vulva is like 20 feet high, the reality is, it's the men as much as the women that are going, "Oh." Because there's this kind of belief that the clitoris is just the little knobby thing at the top of the vulva and they don't even know it's called the vulva.
They'll call the full area the vagina. Actually, the vagina is just the tube that goes into the pelvic floor. The vulva is the entire area. And the clitoris they think it's just that knobby thing at the top. [00:10:02] When actually, the clitoris comes all the way down the legs of the clitoris, come all the way down around the vulva.
I actually had a woman say to me, "I just learned that I have two sets of legs," which I thought was hilarious.
Laura Dugger: That's clever.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, isn't that funny? The reality is, yes, knowing anatomy and understanding the process of stimulation to orgasm, understanding how arousal works, and how the blood flow comes in, understanding how men and women are different around desire. Most men desire sexuality before engaging. Most women, especially post childbirth years, their desire doesn't kick in until they start touching and caressing.
So men and women are so radically different. And the physiological differences need to be explained so that couples can find out how to bring each other pleasure physically.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. [00:11:00] And let's camp there for just a moment. You have mentioned that even after childbearing that men and women will experience desire differently. And if that's not explained in culture, it seems like a lot of women think, If I'm not having the same drive as my husband, something's wrong with me. So could you unpack that a little bit more, about gender difference?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah. Yeah. And let me just say, even as I start to unpack that, is that I do think it's not just a female thing. I do think, like I'd say, of those who come into my office, about 30% of the men have low desire. Meaning their wife has a higher desire.
And when our culture tells us that all men want sex, and I've got men in my office and men that we all know in our communities that have low desire, they are also going, "What's wrong with me?" Or their wife is saying, "What's wrong with him? [00:12:01] And where else is he having sex? If he doesn't want sex all the time, he must be... at least he doesn't ask me to have sex, then he must be doing it somewhere else or there's something wrong with him."
So it is also this view of desire and that you should always want it if you're male is problematic for women often. Well, this is both husbands and wives. If their spouse doesn't feel desire, that the communication is "they're not attracted to me, they're not interested in me, they don't..." men don't necessarily. They'll use the word "want". "She doesn't want me." At least the men that I work with, that's the word that comes up.
That if she isn't thinking about sex and if she's not initiating sex, then it means she doesn't want me. If she's not desiring sex. It is more common for men to desire to physically, well mentally image, think about filler arousal through their day, and so on. [00:13:05]
You know, visually, they're stimulated, and they feel the desire to have an orgasm, have sex. Yes, that is... like statistically, we know that men do in general have a higher desire for sex. So what happens is, if women don't think about sex ahead of time, and then they therefore aren't maybe initiating it, the belief can be then "she doesn't want me. She's not interested in me."
It's important to realize there are so many factors. Number one, [unintelligible 00:13:36] she's a researcher and a clinician, and she says this: desire doesn't actually kick in until the touch stuff happens, which I mentioned earlier. When you free people from that expectation that desire is supposed to happen beforehand, then they can go, "Oh, so once we get going, and my desire kicks in, that's actually normal." That's 70% of women. [00:14:00] So it's very freeing to find out that desire comes later.
So when our culture and our gendered expectations are, this is how sex works, whether it has to do with how old you are, whether it has to do what gender you are, what time of life you're in. It's really important to set some of those cultural expectations aside and realize the blaming that they cause and really a lot of the arguments that it causes or the hurt that it causes in marital relationships.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's great. And just such a grace-filled answer. Like you said, it offers freedom. And for those women, a lot of times they'll say, after a few minutes, like you said, indirect stimulation, maybe the caressing, touching, holding, that they think, Okay, this sounds like it's not a bad idea, and the desire will kick in.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yes.
Laura Dugger: So that's helpful to see for women. And I really appreciate you clarifying with men. Let's camp out there for a while now. [00:15:00]
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: I would say, just from my clinical experience, I would say a good percentage of the couples I see, the reason... one of the reasons anyway, that they're coming in is that the men have low desire.
Laura Dugger: And we don't hear about that often. Like you said, the wife may be feeling that he's not attracted to her or many other reasons. So what are some of those reasons why men in their married relationship have the lower desire?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, it can be physiological. If they have a low output from their testes of testosterone or if they have hypogonadism, meaning that low production of testosterone, it can absolutely affect desire because it affects motivation overall if the testosterone is low.
But even if that's not the case, it may be life, it may be fatigue, it may be... I have individuals that they'll tell me they don't actually test as low in their testosterone, but that they just didn't think about it much when they were younger. [00:16:04] Really they definitely went through, you know, years of their life with masturbation, maybe, even with pornography. But that they'd hear about men who just always were wanting sex, and they would not identify with that gendered norm of wanting it all the time.
That can actually create lots of challenges as men come into their adulthood and these expectations of this is what a man is supposed to be like. And then they come into a marital relationship and that expectation is there from their wife, because of what our culture, society might say.
Often these men aren't necessarily bothered by it until they're either starting to think, why aren't I like other men? Or until they're hearing from their spouse, why aren't you initiating?
Really it can be caused by a great number of things. [00:17:01] It can be caused by work stress. That's a big one. It can be caused by a lack of sleep. And it can just be that they have an innate low desire—they don't actually think about it that much.
So one of the things I tell people is, okay, you have low desire, all right. You know, it's actually a diagnosis in the DSM. And I think that can be problematic sometimes if it's still kind of disorder, when it might not be a disorder at all.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Very freeing, again. And that can take away the shame even when you educate further. That's helpful.
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Laura Dugger: So what other areas of marital intimacy help foster healthy sexual intimacy?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Oh boy, yeah, this could be the whole time that we're together because there's a lot of areas. [00:19:02] You know, one of the first things that I work with with couples... Well, I tell them I'm a sex therapist, but really I'm an intimacy specialist. So I work with the overall intimacy in marriage and sexuality when it's not surrounded by all of the lovely pieces of what can be there in the overall intimate relationship. Sexuality is separated from that. It's not very fulfilling, either for the husband or the wife.
So the areas that I first work on is what I would call verbal and emotional intimacy. So that has to do with how well a couple is really sharing heart-to-heart, how much they're expressing their fears, their hopes, their dreams, their mistakes, their... you know, all those more scary vulnerable parts?
So if that's not happening, if emotional connection isn't happening, if they're not talking heart to heart, it's pretty challenging to have a really intimate connection sexually. [00:20:08]
And then definitely, I work quite a bit with touch overall. Oftentimes, when sexuality becomes problematic, all areas of intimacy become problematic. It kind of ricochets through the rest of the relationship. Touch, just affectionate touch becomes problematic. And then definitely, the verbal and emotional connection becomes problematic.
So the other area of intimacy that doesn't get talked about very much is just... I met with a couple just recently, and we were doing a communication exercise around their affection and their touching in their relationship. And after they got done, they were like, "This is kind of awkward." And I said, "I know." I said, "When's the last time you talked about touch and affection in your relationship?" And they kind of looked at each other, and they're like, "I don't think we ever have."
So they're a perfect example of we don't talk about touch, except for maybe anger conversations on "you're not affectionate", you know, in the angry conversations that come up. But talking honestly and openly about that part of intimacy is vital. [00:21:08]
And then people don't talk about sensual touch. So this is everything but genital touch. All the difference. The caressing, the sensual parts of the body. And that doesn't get talked about. So honestly, one of the biggest things that I do in building intimacy is helping people communicate about the different levels of intimacy.
And then I spent quite a bit of time on building relational intimacy, how to connect and have fun together, because that is... I can't even measure how important that is. And I talk about body image because body image affects intimacy overall.
I do talk about how... I actually give people... well, this is a common technique that therapists would send couples home with saying, "Go have dates." I call them fun times. Date times are fun times. "Do have fun together."
So couples often don't even know where to start with having fun. [00:22:00] So all those areas, verbal, physical touch, and affection, having fun together, everything having to do with their body image, if they're connecting around all of those areas, it makes a huge difference on how their sexual intimacy goes.
Laura Dugger: That's great. It is so multifaceted.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It is.
Laura Dugger: And then even for the fun dates that you send them on, if a couple today is listening to this and they want to try it this week, what would you say to them? What should that look like?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: So there's a workbook that goes with his needs, her needs. And it's called the Five Steps to Romantic Love. In it is a worksheet on relationship companionship. It literally has a list of like four pages of all of these activities that couples can do. And a husband fills out one and the wife fills out the same thing. And they number it negative three to positive three.
And I'll give couples these worksheets because often they don't even know where to start on what the different possibilities are. [00:23:07] And in these worksheets, it's got play test together and go boating and take a dance class and play cards and go see a movie and go out to dinner and walk on the beach. And it's got this list of a bunch of different activities. So couples put a number by each activity, and then they add them up and they see which ones add up to like a five or a six. And then they go, "Okay, let's try this one."
And it's funny, because years ago, we actually... My husband and I facilitated marriage dynamics utilizing those two books. And we came up with the fact that both of us and we've never talked about it, liked the idea of taking... what do you call it? One of those dance classes where you learn waltzing and the salsa and all of that ballroom dancing class.
And we were like, "Oh, well, then we should go into this." And we now since... now, it's been a while. But we've done it twice. And how much fun we had doing that. And honestly, sometimes it's exposing yourself to some of these other possibilities and going and trying them out and goofing around having fun trying it out together.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's amazing. And it just shows, for anybody listening today, no matter how long you've been married, you can always learn something new about one another.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: That's so true.
Laura Dugger: Yeah, it's excitement. Well, this next question has three parts. What phase of marriage do you hear clients say it's most difficult to connect physically? What are those roadblocks and how do you suggest overcoming them?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Okay, well definitely overall probably the biggest one I hear is what happened after they had kids. Actually, just yesterday I was with a couple and things were great and then the kid came in. That sounds so like the kids came. [00:25:00] But that is a reality, that when children come, Well, number one, physiologically there's challenges for the wife, often, and then the fatigue is so high, and the focus is all of a sudden not.
And this couple literally said, "We go on walks. We go on dates. It was so fun. And then we had kids." So couples don't foster. The fostering of that part of their relationship dies off. So, of course, then not only are there physiological changes for the female, but then there's the time differences, the fatigue difference. So the childbearing years into the early raising of those children is one of the biggest ones that comes up.
Then I would definitely say, big time, the second biggest one, because a lot of my clients are older, they're in their 50s, maybe 60s, their children are either about to or are leaving home, and they've all of a sudden, you know, start realizing that with the children leaving home they're recognizing that they don't have much connection. [00:26:08]
So a good chunk of the couples that come in to see me, what'll happen is the wife is finally saying to the husband, "I haven't enjoyed sex for 20 years. And now the kids are gone, and I'm thinking, Wait a minute, what about me? And it's also I'm thinking about it in our sexual life as well."
So they haven't communicated about their sexuality since those childbearing years and here they are 20 years into it. And it's really at that level, honestly, the problems are sometimes quite complicated. I would say that would be almost half and half there.
I do have couples as well that come in because the years where they're in more advanced aging, again, kind of similar into the 50s and 60s and into the 70s, where physiologically they're starting to have lots of challenges, or they're having a lot of issues with vaginal pain, or they're having a lot of issues with erectile functioning. [00:27:06]
So yeah, I would say those three time periods: the childbearing years, the teenage years, and then the older years as couples age.
And in all honesty, it's kind of similar in all of those as far as what the roadblocks are, is there's just a lack of prioritizing that is majorly happening for all of those ages. They're not intentional in their overall intimate relationship as well as their sexual relationship.
Also, one of the big roadblocks is what's going on with physical health. So same in all three. Physically, things can be challenging for women during, and for men, but especially because childbirth can cause a change in hormones, it can create all kinds of different challenges in the genital areas for women. [00:28:00] They will often say they don't experience the same level of arousal when they are touched and stimulated. They don't feel the same level of orgasmic response.
And then I would definitely say the physical health comes up big time through the years, and then definitely as couples age. So I work with individuals who have chronic pain, they have back issues, they have diabetes, they have lupus, they've had breast cancer, and prostate cancer. So those physical health issues are major roadblocks.
And then definitely, in all of that time period, when couples don't have a good ability to resolve conflict in their relationship, it becomes highly problematic. They'll tell me they got along with a retaining, they got along an early marriage, the conflict started to build and then children came and the conflict got pretty bad.
And then by the time they're in the teenage years, they're not connected any longer and the conflict is high. And then they come in to see me and they've had, you know, challenge with conflict for quite some time. [00:29:03] And they've had some things that have happened between them that are really painful. Either there's been betrayals or there's been the use of drugs and alcohol or any other kind of addiction or other kinds of huge areas of conflict, and it's unresolved.
So there are major barriers to having great connection in the sexuality. I tell couples, first of all, they have to begin to take very specific steps towards building intimacy and they have to do it intentionally. However, a lot of the time you have to work on those unresolved issues. Sometimes even first before you even work on "Let's build our friendship back".
Sometimes they want to build their friendship back, they want to get emotionally and verbally close. But if you don't work on resolving the issues, that's not going to work to do some of that practical stuff.
So you do have to be intentional. [00:30:01] You do have to work on the unresolved issues. Sometimes people have to go and see, medical specialist. Often I'm sending people to sexual medicine specialists, because in my work with those who specialize in the medical issues that come up with sexuality, the pain and the physical problems they're having need to be specifically addressed by somebody who's more informed than, say, their gynecologist or their urologist.
So going and getting help from a specialist. And really, honestly getting help with other relationships. Either seeing somebody professionally. When people are involved in churches, are they getting connected with other couples? Are they getting open with their relationship with others that are helping them?
So one of the biggest things that I do in working with people is upping their entire support network, including, you know, really working through their relationship with me and the help that I can keep them. So yeah, a number of roadblocks and a number of things that I usually work with couples on how to overcome them. [00:31:02]
Laura Dugger: I love that. That response just gives so much hope, no matter where you're at. It's not too late to start with this intentionality and get people to come alongside and support.
And for those who are newly married, maybe or they just had their first child, what would you advise to them for prioritizing one another above their children even in these young years when that can feel conflicting, especially to a mom?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Right. You know, it's vital. When you look at Song of Solomon, he talks about that: I have placed you as a seal over my heart. And couples will often lose the... you know, who's the seal for my heart? It's not actually my children.
I'm a mother of four. I get the level of emotion, both in fears and joys, that parents feel with their children. [00:32:03] And it can be really easy to get lost in that and forget that actually, biblically, I am called to have that level of commitment and joy in and intentional focus prioritizing towards my spouse. And it does take, yes, intentional focus. And realizing that sometimes that means time.
When I work with young couples that come in, one of the first things I check on pretty early on is do they talk together during the day? Do they talk together at night? Do they put their children down to sleep at a good hour, so that they can have a life after they go to bed? So honestly, sometimes I'm working with sleep schedules, which is kind of funny.
And then I'll talk about, do you get away without your children? Do you have people in your life that can help you with kids? Do you swap with other families? Do you have a childcare swapping, you know, where you watch theirs, they watch yours and you go out on dates? [00:33:05] Do you have family in town? Often people will say, Oh, gosh, I do but we don't ever... So they have the connections, but they don't use them.
And then I do talk about how do you get away for more than, you know, a day? Do you get away overnight? Often couples will say that their best sex actually occurs when they're on vacation. So sometimes they have to take little mini vacations, just the two of them with no children. And yet, that sometimes means you have to, again, pay attention to their support network and teaching them how to use it.
So building purposeful intimacy both in the home. So this is are they talking? Are they doing small intimate gestures at home? And then I talk about their schedules. And are they prioritizing time together within the home after the children are down? Are they going on dates? [00:34:00] Are they getting away overnight? Because that relational building has a huge impact on how sex goes.
And then the practicals are, do you teach your children not to walk in your room? Some couples put locks on doors. But you can also teach them that they can't come in the room unless they ask. So that you can have you know sex and not worry about your kid walking in.
I joke with parents when their kids get older that sometimes kids will hear things and... It happens, you know. Teenagers, young children walk in, they hear things and parents are so mortified and worried about that happening. But then they don't set themselves up for success to find ways to engage sexually and enjoy each other without having to be worried or paranoid about their kid hearing or walking in.
So there are practical things and then there is the intentional focus of our marriages got to be more important even than our children. The best thing you can give your children is that you have a great marriage. [00:35:03] I tell parents the best way you can teach your kids about sex, because they're so worried about, you know, sexuality and their children, the best way you can teach your kids about sex is have a great sex life.
Laura Dugger: Oh, I love that. I love that. So much joy in that response. And what are some common questions related to sex that you get, such as how often is normal?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: So I get that a lot. Either in anger, where people are like, you know, Oh, our friends are doing it this often and we do it this often. Or worry, like, are we normal? What is regular? What's typical? And it really does differ greatly.
Sex can happen, for most couples, I would say, definitely monthly would be about the lower end of regular. But most couples that are in an active, satisfying sexual relationship are engaging weekly. [00:36:04] But I hate to put numbers on things because then if they're not engaging weekly, they're feeling like something's wrong with us.
So what can happen with the idea of normal is that people can become demanding and upset and angry with one another. So idea of normal, I usually try to help them with that. That word might be problematic. And I help them figure out how often would they like to have sex.
Now, you often have a difference, male and female. You will have women that will say that they want sex more often than their husband does. Yes, there is a higher percentage of men who are saying they want sex more often than their wife. But normal can be hugely different and it can become a bit of a weapon that couples will use against each other.
So I really help them figure out, how do you decide how often you want to have sex? [00:37:04] How do you even have that conversation? Because most of the time you're not talking about it. But then also when one of you wants to have sex and the other one doesn't, how do you manage that? That's pretty tricky sometimes. And that can create a lot of conflict.
And I'm a sex therapist, but I actually teach people how to refuse. So, you know, how to refuse a sexual initiation is a big part of the work that I do.
Laura Dugger: That's a great point. And so what is a practical takeaway for a refusal that would still be honoring and maybe set up a different time that work for both?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Literally, the language I use and coach my couples with is what I call a stop, continue. I actually do it around how to do the dishes in the laundry together, and then I do it around touch and then I do it around sexual and sensual touch. Then I apply it to the different levels of the relationship so that then they can learn how to say, "Do you want to stop? Or do you continue?"
And then if you want to say, stop, if someone comes and says, "I want to do this" and you want to say no, I coached them through saying, "Well, actually, I would rather..." So if you're going to say no, then you say what I'd rather do. That's literally the language I coach. "What I'd rather do is... so, well..."
So if a spouse comes and says, "Hey, do you wanna?" and their partner would say, "Well, what I'd rather do is... I'm really exhausted. So how about on Saturday we have some really great time together? And tonight, how about we give each other a foot rub, and then we cuddle and go to sleep?" Or "how about tonight we have a quickie, and we have a more extended time on Wednesday?" Or "You know, I'm not feeling well. How about we hold hands and go to sleep, and then..."
So some kind of I want to stay connected, I'm hearing what you want, I, though, also have some needs. [00:39:07] So you're being assertive with those needs, but then you're not slamming the door. You're saying, "Let's do this." And that's the "what I'd rather do" is, and let's do this at this time. Teaching that in coaching, that is vital, in my experience.
Laura Dugger: And that is so honoring the way that you put that and the language you give to it, that it's honoring to both spouses. Now, on the flip side, what if one spouse always is saying no? How would you coach them?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Well, often, it's almost the same. They haven't learned to be assertive with what they want, and so they feel like the only answer they have is no. So that's a problem. Also, this is especially true for women. If they haven't learned to prioritize their own enjoyment of sexuality, then, you know, the no is going to come out more. [00:40:07]
So teaching sexual assertiveness is vital. Gosh, historically, you're talking thousands of years, let alone the last few decades. Women historically, the emphasis on female sexual enjoyment is low. So it's something that I work a bit with couples and with the women, and the men, on how to prioritize female sexual enjoyment.
And also, when people are commonly saying no, sometimes, especially if they're spiritually involved, and they really want to honor each other the way God would want them to, or the way that the scriptures would encourage them to is sometimes people need to relearn their view of sexuality biblically. And so I'll give them different tools.
I actually have a book that I love. It's called Hot and Holy by Sam Laing. [00:41:00] And it's just a small little book that goes over Song of Solomon. And relearning the incredible view of sexuality that that whole book teaches.
So sometimes there's a relearning that needs to happen to help sex be positive, and how people feel about it. Sometimes the no comes from, gosh, so many different things. It can come from negative background if people are having any issues with sexual abuse that they were dealing with.
So you have to find out where the "no" is coming from, why they're saying it, and then help them to communicate it to their spouse in a way that doesn't feel like I'm being rejected.
Now, sometimes people say no because they are challenged with being able to be giving. So I literally will explore that in the office on what would it be like to consider the other, and what is a way that you can still honor your needs and still think of the other as well? So that's a rather involved answer on what do you do when people generally say no. [00:42:05]
And I think you gotta carefully deal with it because our culture says you can't say no. Our church culture says you can't say no, which is actually a real misunderstanding of Corinthians.
Laura Dugger: And that's such a gentle answer in the way you respond. And then switching gears to a little bit more lighthearted topic, what are some tips you have for adding a little bit more pizzazz back into your intimate life as a married couple?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: You know, one of the biggest things is get back to enjoying everything having to do with sensuality. Couples, often I joke, you hold hands and then you have intercourse. And there's not a lot in between. So one of the biggest things that I will tell people it's a really common technique in sex therapy is getting back to sensual touch and enjoying sensual touch. [00:43:01] So that's one of the biggest ones.
But I do think there's all kinds of little things that are vital. Go read Song of Solomon together. Go buy some fun, sensual, or sexual games that you can play. Dice or a board game. Play strip poker. You know, the stuff you might have wanted to do when you were younger, maybe you never did do it. Now you can pull it into your marriage.
Play some kind of goofy card game and the reward is you get to tell your spouse what you want them to do. Go buy, you know, whipped cream and strawberries and spray it on yourself and say, you know, do something there. You know, have fun. Play games.
You know, I talk about indulge your sensuality. Buy... for women but also for men, buy sensual clothing, things made of satin, lace, soft materials, sensual materials. [00:44:00] You know, if you want to tantalize each other, make phone calls, and say funny innuendos to each other, you know. Women can wear, you know, no underwear and flash their husbands if they're wearing a skirt as they're walking out the door. I mean, there's so many ways that you can tantalize each other.
And then when you are engaging sexually, keep your eyes open. Watch what's happening between you. Couples are like, Yes, do it in front of a mirror. Watch what's happening. And then you've got pictures in your mind that you can fantasize about your spouse during the day and during the week.
We often, especially with people that are religiously involved, the idea of fantasy seems negative. But Song of Solomon is full of fantasy. And we should be thinking about our spouse sexually. So intentionally thinking about it, intentionally teasing one another, upping sensuality. [00:45:00]
And sensuality doesn't mean just in the bedroom. It can mean throughout the day. Do you enjoy a wonderful bite of chocolate? Do you walk on the beach? Do you take a bath? Do you need to buy new sheets and a new comforter? Or do you like candles when you are in your bedroom? Do you put on music?
You know, sensuality overall makes a huge difference in how much couples enjoy in putting pizzazz back and how much they enjoy their sexual intimacy.
Laura Dugger: Those are some great takeaways. It sounds like just bottom line, be playful, be playful, be playful.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Yeah, big time.
Laura Dugger: That's great. Well, thank you so much for all that you've shared. You've actually written an incredible book. Could you just tell us a little bit more about how listeners could connect with you?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Sure. So you can go on my website, theartofintimatemarriage.com. And it's all one word, theartofintimatemarriage. You can find almost everything there. [00:46:02]
There are the links to the book. I have two books. One is The Art of Marriage, and the other is Redeemed Sexuality. And both of those are available on Amazon.
One of the biggest things that people find helpful is our cards. So we have five decks, they're sold as a set. They help couples with their communication around their overall intimacy and their sexual intimacy. They're called The Intimate Marriage cards. You can get those on Amazon as well. All those links are on our website.
On the website is the podcast. I have done a radio show. I do podcasts. And all of that is on the website. You can go and listen to those. There's a blog on there. So there's definitely resources.
So the model that I use for working with couples, just to let you know, it has received a couple national awards, the research that I've done on the model on how I take couples through sex therapy. It is also currently in publication in a peer-reviewed journal. [00:47:03]
So, people who are more inclined towards research, you can actually read about the couples that I've taken through sex therapy. That's helpful because today we do have an emphasis on evidence-based practices. And so the practice that I use is my own model. And it is evidence-based, so that's helpful.
And then definitely I love it when people send me their questions. So you can do that on the website. It actually has an area where you can send questions. You can also just send them to my email, which is jenniferkonzen@yahoo.com. Pretty easy. Myname@yahoo. So people send me questions, and I love to answer them.
Laura Dugger: That's great. We will definitely link to all of this in the show notes so that you can spell her name correctly. Konzen with a K. Our final question today, Dr. Konzen, what is your savvy sauce as a wife?
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: Ah, well, I would definitely say talk a lot, be open, be vulnerable, be real. [00:48:05] Obviously that means be safe with each other in that vulnerability. But talk. Be open. Be real.
Number one, do that first with God. Be open, talk, be real with God, and then with your husband. And that makes just a huge difference to the flavor in life, in your marriage.
Laura Dugger: Incredible. Well, I've been privileged to know you for quite a few years now and see you live this out with your Lord and Savior, with your husband, with your children, with your community. So I just want to say thank you for your labor of love to promote healthy sexuality and the way that you reclaim it for God's kingdom.
You are incredibly gifted. Your advice is practical. I love how your bubbly personality shines through. So thanks again for chatting with us today.
Dr. Jennifer Konzen: It's been lovely. Thank you for having me. [00:49:00]
Laura Dugger: Hey friends, we have purchased one of Dr. Jennifer Konzen's books that she authored with her husband Tim Konzen, and we would love for one of you to be the recipient of this giveaway. Just go to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our "giveaway" tab for your chance to win one copy of their book titled The Art of Intimate Marriage.
One more thing before you go, have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:50:06]
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? [00:51:04] We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So are you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:52:00]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
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