EdTech Loop Ep. 92 - Graphic Novels Are Good

"The comic strip is no longer the comic strip. But in reality and illustrated novel. It is new and raw in form just now, but material for limitless intelligent development. And eventually, and inevitably, it will be a legitimate medium for the best writers and artists. It is already the embryo of a new art form." - Will Eisner

 

Show Transcript:

Stephie Luyt 0:01
I'm not fuming.

Larry Burden 0:02
She's fuming.

Stephie Luyt 0:02
I'm the opposite of fuming.

Danelle Brostrom 0:04
Aww, that's more calming.

Stephie Luyt 0:11
We just might ramble.

Larry Burden 0:12
This is a safe space. If you haven't noticed through the years that this is a safe rambling space.

Stephie Luyt 0:18
That's meaty.

Larry Burden 0:24
It is Episode 92 of the EdTechLoop podcast. My name is Larry Burden and she has yet to reveal her secret identity. It's Danelle Brostrom. And also joining us, her spunky super sidekick Stephie Luyt. Up in the TCAPS tower we gaze over the troubled streets of TC pondering this week's moment of Zen.

Moment of Zen 0:44
Grown ups are a strange breed. Their brains weigh close to three pounds. And that's not three pounds of cheery delight.

Larry Burden 0:53
We've added sweet onions, garlic, tomatoes and potatoes but today's stew isn't completed until we add this week's meat of the show: Graphic Novels are Good, 'Nuff Said.

Danelle Brostrom 1:04
Stephie, I'm so excited that you're here today.

Larry Burden 1:06
She jumps in.

Danelle Brostrom 1:07
I did jump in

Larry Burden 1:08
That wasn't the quote.

Danelle Brostrom 1:10
You told me to jump in.

Larry Burden 1:11
That wasn't the quote. I had the quote.

Danelle Brostrom 1:13
Oh, Larry.

Danelle Brostrom 1:14
Edit!

Larry Burden 1:15
We're gonna keep this goin'

Stephie Luyt 1:16
Graphic novels are good. You like said it all.

Larry Burden 1:21
I wanted to share this from Will Eisner.

Stephie Luyt 1:23
Yes.

Danelle Brostrom 1:24
Ok

Larry Burden 1:25
The comic strip is no longer the comic strip. But in reality and illustrated novel. It is new and raw in form just now, but material for limitless intelligent development. And eventually, and inevitably, it will be a legitimate medium for the best writers and artists. It is already the embryo of a new art form.

Stephie Luyt 1:45
Excellent.

Larry Burden 1:46
And go.

Stephie Luyt 1:48
I'm glad we let you go past the rest.

Danelle Brostrom 1:51
Stephie, you're always my "go to" about good books for kids. So you've got quite a few graphic novels there. Talk to me about graphic novels. Why are they all of a sudden, the thing to read for kids?

Stephie Luyt 2:02
Okay, well, and can I just loop back a little bit to something Larry just said, because I think there's an interesting discussion to be had about comic strips versus graphic novels, you might find them in the same spot in the library. And they have so much in common because the story is told so visually and both but a comic strip is often told over many installations. Like if you think about a traditional comic strip it'd be in a newspaper.

Larry Burden 2:29
It's serialized.

Stephie Luyt 2:30
Yes. And a different way to think about a graphic novel is the whole story is usually told in a book or two. And sometimes there's a trilogy or whatnot of you know, it can be...

Larry Burden 2:39
It's like a movie versus a TV show.

Stephie Luyt 2:41
Excellent example. 'Nuff said. When we're thinking about, you know, graphic novels and comic strips and that art form, one of the reasons it's become so popular is because of the quality of what is being produced, and especially for kids, young readers, and middle grade and I was never aware of the extent of graphic novels that are available for adults too. I was surprised. I shouldn't be surprised. But that's not a medium that I was spending a lot of time reading. I was spending a lot of time and do spend a lot of time on children and Y.A.. But there's a whole world of adult graphic novels, not adult in theme but adult, geared toward adults. One really popular one that people may know and one that I am familiar with is now a Broadway play. It's called "Fun Home" by Alison Bechdel.

Larry Burden 3:30
Saw it.

Stephie Luyt 3:31
Oh, tell us about it.

Larry Burden 3:32
It was fabulous. It was, saw it in Toronto. It was really literate, really interesting. I'm not going to break it down. But yeah, brought my, my children to it. It was really mature subject matter.

Stephie Luyt 3:44
Yep.

Larry Burden 3:45
I did not actually know that it was based off of a graphic novel, so.

Stephie Luyt 3:48
Yeah, a graphic memoir that she described as a tragic comic,

Larry Burden 3:52
difficult topics handled actually, pretty delicately.

Stephie Luyt 3:55
And with a lot of humor. That's my, I mean, that's how the book is, I'm assuming.

Larry Burden 4:00
Yeah, absolutely.

Stephie Luyt 4:01
Content geared totally toward adults, all the way down to our littles. There are graphic novels that are just exploding and grabbing kids, because of the strength of the stories. The strength of the stories and the quality of the illustrations and the art. At the end of the day, anything in terms of books or narratives that we see in a TV show or anything like that, it all boils down to a story. And the stories that are being told are just really rich and really strong. And, you know, in terms of just looking at data from a hard data side, I mean, explosion in terms of $80 million in increased sales in graphic novels since 2017, according to one stat that I found. And it's where many of our most talented, I think authors and illustrators are working in that form right now. It's an exciting time, because there's so much there to hook kids. There's content and storylines in that format that would appeal to all readers. And readers of all ages and abilities.

Danelle Brostrom 5:05
That was gonna be my next question. So if I have a low reader, or a high reader, I should look to graphic novels for them. It's not just one type of child.

Stephie Luyt 5:13
Absolutely, Absolutely. And we've talked about this before with looking at books that would have, you know, themes for younger kids, but would have a high level of reading. Classics, and a lot of classics have been turned into graphic novels. And we were chatting yesterday about "A Wrinkle in Time," and how that is more accessible for some kids to start with the graphic novel before reading "A Wrinkle in Time." Or, I mean, "Anne of Green Gables," is a graphic novel. Lots and lots of books have been turned into that format, and are hooking readers, which is really what, that's the goal that we have. Like, get our kids reading, right book for the right reader.

Larry Burden 5:17
All right, I want to know what you got?

Stephie Luyt 5:55
So in front of us, there's kind of a stack of books as there tends to be. There were, just last week, a number of books, a number of graphic novels that were released, but they also were previewed this summer at a couple conferences. So I would say that one of the biggest that has just come out is "Guts," by Raina Telgemeier, who is well known for her other books, "Drama," "Smile," "Sisters," "Ghosts," and "Guts," is the story of the author's experience as a fourth grader and dealing with anxiety and stomach aches that came with her anxiety. And I've seen write ups about it as such an important work for kids who are struggling with those kinds of issues and being able to read about them in such an accessible, comfortable way. It's been written up a whole bunch recently, New York Times all sorts of places, and it's excellent. You've read it, I know you enjoyed it.

Danelle Brostrom 6:49
Yeah, my whole family, we thought it was amazing. And even just that idea of some things, some things that I'm experiencing, are kind of like this main character, but they're a little bit different. So being able to talk about how you relate to that character is a really important skill for kids.

Stephie Luyt 7:08
And I think that's something that if you've been exposed and reading in the genre, recently, the none of the books are shying away from issues that kids are dealing with. Like there, there's meaty, tough issues, and a lot of, a lot of books, not just graphic novels, but presented in a way that kids can identify with and you know, make meaning in their own life from the experiences of what they're seeing the characters go through. Plus, they're also fun and funny. I mean, the format is, lends itself to also a little bit of, you know, light humor too, and sometimes full on humor. I mean, they're just like "Fun Home," like it tackles tough issues, but that format helps make it comfortable.

Larry Burden 7:48
A lot more accessible. Sometimes, especially with some of the tougher issues, It's good to have a, an accessible image, as opposed to the image that might be developed in your own head. It kind of gives you a safety net.

Stephie Luyt 8:02
I think that's true.

Larry Burden 8:02
So it's not quite as scary.

Stephie Luyt 8:04
So highly recommend "Guts." Also "White Bird," by R.J. Palacio, whose name would be familiar if you're, have read the "Wonder," books. And this story is of Julian, so the character from "Wonder." It's Julian's grandmother's story. Julian is one of the characters who is one of the bullies in the book, in the main book. And this tells the backstory of his family. It's very powerful, because it's about the war and her experience in the war. The artwork is gorgeous. They were actually at ALA giving away prints of her art, and it was something that you would hang up, it's gorgeous. But telling that full spectrum of the "Wonder," story, which has been hugely popular, and anyone who's read "Wonder," would enjoy seeing this side of the story, in this perspective. And it's, there's heavy issues in it. But it's beautifully told.

Larry Burden 9:01
We've talked about graphic novels before on the podcast, and forever graphic novels have gotten a bad rap. Why?

Stephie Luyt 9:10
I mean, people say, you know, the, the argument is, it's not real reading, because it's in small chunks. And it's not written out in the same format. And it's, it looks different. And it has all those illustrations. And, it is real reading, and kids are digesting the story in the same way. And they are taking in the same content. And they are processing the artwork as part of the story, which is a whole 'nother set of skills. And it's telling the story in a, in another way. I believe anything that hooks kids and makes them want to read is real reading.

Larry Burden 9:46
It's a narrative. You're, you're, you're teaching students, or kids to love, narrative and love storytelling.

Stephie Luyt 9:53
And then this is just a creative way that's, that the story is being presented, you know, with art involved. And you know, I think before we had all of this amazing content in a graphic novel form, comic strips would have been what had gotten a bad rap. It's the same argument, though, like you're still, a story is being told, like you said in small episodes or increments, but the narrative and the arc of the story, and this, you know, the the plat, and the twists, and all those, all of those elements of a good story exist in that format. It's told in a different way,

Larry Burden 10:26
The form doesn't really matter, the reason why books were printed the way books were printed, time in memoriam, is cost. The more words you can fit on a page, the cheaper the book is. It's publishable. We now have the opportunity to make picture books cheaply. So that's the reason why we're making picture books. It's still words, it's still narrative, it's still story. Why should we be stuck with an old world form, when we don't have to? Well, the question that I have is, why are authors choosing this format? Because it's available to them now. It's potentially a better way to tell a story. It just wasn't available to them. I remember as a, as a student, when I was young, and I was a struggling reader. There were just too many words on a page, I couldn't manage that amount of content. You know, and they're finding now that large print books are actually really helping kids because they can manage the content. Again, my escape was the graphic novel or the comic book, because there was really just less word, less words on the page. And I was able to get, get over a lot of those hurdles, in my reading, to the point where then I could go and read much richer texts. And I had fallen in love with the narrative, which is the important part for our kids. They'll read. They have to have those progressions, to the point where they can. They're not going to start with Tolstoy and Dostoevsky. They're just not.

Stephie Luyt 12:01
Nor is anyone.

Larry Burden 12:02
And it's not a competition,

Stephie Luyt 12:04
Right?

Larry Burden 12:04
So whatever gets them hooked, is the important thing. And I think we've talked about that,

Stephie Luyt 12:09
Right? And the visual are very engaging, and pull kids into the narrative, before they even get into the story. So I think it's it's a win, win. Was it the art? Or was it the story that grabbed you as a reader when you were young?

Larry Burden 12:24
Both.

Stephie Luyt 12:24
Both.

Larry Burden 12:25
Both. But I would say, you know, just like looking at an album cover, as you're going to the record store back in the day. You'd be like, oh, that's a cool album cover. I think I'm going to get it. And then you know, you listen to it, you might like it, you might not. The art was, was the entry point. The story is what kept you coming back?

Stephie Luyt 12:42
Absolutely.

Danelle Brostrom 12:43
Well, the goal should be to get kids to fall in love with reading. And part of getting kids to fall in love with reading is that they need to be able to see themselves in the story. And if you have a child who had issues, like we talked about "Guts," like with anxiety, typically you would have to look for a middle school or high school book. And that's not always going to have content in it that's appropriate for an elementary school kids. So I love how these graphic novels do tackle tough issues, and kids can actually see themselves in them, but it's done in a safe accessible way for kids.

Stephie Luyt 13:17
Absolutely. And issues that are really mainstream that kids are, lots of kids are dealing with, anxiety and other issues like that, but kids are also dealing with friend concerns. And there's lots of books that are just focused on real experiences of what kids are having. And the range of so many experiences, so many different situations. And I feel like books are really expanding into all of those. You know, starting to pull stories from lots and lots of different perspectives. I mean, we've talked a lot about you know, windows and mirrors, and, and books of all forms, graphic included are getting more and more experiences, more and more perspectives, more, just more looks at all the different ways people are experiencing the world. And I think that is a win for all readers, and especially our kiddos.

Larry Burden 14:04
Sure, what else we have?

Stephie Luyt 14:06
There's a trilogy that's been very popular, and the most recent one is called, "Sonny Rolls the Dice," getting adjusted to middle school. Kind of those same issues, friend issues. This one makes me giggle because it's about Dungeons and Dragons. So it's back in like the heyday of Dungeons and Dragons, which apparently is having a huge comeback.

Danelle Brostrom 14:24
What!

Danelle Brostrom 14:26
And then, "The Babysitters Club," books that are really popular that Raina Telgemaier has, she has done a number of graphic novels that are the "Babysitters Club." Based on the novels that were by Ann Martin. But this is for younger readers, because it's the "Babysitters Little Sister," is the title that we're looking at. So it's for younger kids than Upper El, even. So that is what, as you look through graphic novels, you really do see that there are books geared toward all ages. And you know, the "Lunch Lady," series and "Zita, the Space Girl," and the "Bone," books. Those are young Elementary, and then moving all the way through. So much for Upper El and Middle, and then High School. And as we talked about, lots and lots of titles for adults as well. I mean, there's a really powerful trilogy of books called, "March." And it's based on the experience of John Lewis. And, I think it was up for a National Book Award. Maybe the first one in the series. But that's telling, from his perspective of being involved in the civil rights movement, and telling all that important history through this powerful graphic novel format. And again, it just highlights that the graphic novel format is touching on all sorts of story. That it's touching on fiction, and nonfiction and memoir. And it's so hard to hear that it's not real reading because of all of what it encompasses in that, in that format. So what we have to do, I think, is just spend, lock ourselves in for the rest of the day and just read graphic novels. Is that okay?

Larry Burden 15:52
Oh, I'm in.

Danelle Brostrom 15:52
Okay.

Larry Burden 15:52
I'm 100% in, yeah,

Stephie Luyt 15:55
And graphic novels are satisfying, because you can get through them a little more quickly. So you'll feel accomplished on your reading list.

Larry Burden 16:01
There was some passion, in what you're saying.

Stephie Luyt 16:04
They're so great. I just love that the options are out there for kids. And they're so, and not just graphic novels, but there's so much out there, especially right now for, for young readers. The quality of what's coming out. And it's awesome.

Larry Burden 16:18
And I just thought about this because I'm reading a book, and as I'm going through, and like, "is this is a young adult book?" Like that was a bad thing. You know, I just in my head, How can we get that out of my head? Because I don't think I'm alone. In that, I'm an adult, I shouldn't be reading, whatever. I, really, and there's so much good content in the young adult section.

Stephie Luyt 16:40
There's so much good content everywhere.

Larry Burden 16:42
Well, Yeah.

Stephie Luyt 16:43
My book group, which is almost all English teachers at one of the high schools, we just read a picture book for our book club. And it's the story of Margaret Wise Brown. So the, you know, "Goodnight Moon," and it's, it's this amazing picture book about her, and that was our book club book. So I don't know what to tell you accept that embrace it. If you love the book, read it and take the story and, who cares if it's a YA, who cares if it's a children's book? That's my not super helpful comment.

Danelle Brostrom 17:15
Didn't "Harry Potter," kind of break that thought for a lot of people?

Larry Burden 17:19
I think so

Danelle Brostrom 17:20
I mean, aren't there are a lot of adults who gravitated to Harry Potter for the first time and went like, Whoa, there's actually good things in YA, I shouldn't dismiss that entire...

Stephie Luyt 17:29
Middle grade. Yeah,

Larry Burden 17:30
It's so, it's so simple in the sense that those books were thick.

Stephie Luyt 17:34
Right?

Larry Burden 17:35
So they must be literature,

Stephie Luyt 17:36
right?

Danelle Brostrom 17:37
It's true.

Larry Burden 17:38
If a graphic novel was a little thicker, suddenly, that's literature.

Stephie Luyt 17:43
So like, "Wonderstruck," or "Hugo Cabret."

Larry Burden 17:46
Yeah, I was thinking, yes.

Stephie Luyt 17:47
Those are almost all illustrations. And but, yes, a super thick book that would allay your, your feelings of...

Larry Burden 17:54
Make it, make it hard cover and

Stephie Luyt 17:56
if it's heavy, but it doesn't have to be boring and old to make it real literature.

Danelle Brostrom 18:01
Mic drop.

Larry Burden 18:02
Techtool of the Week

Danelle Brostrom 18:06
Techtool of the Week, we...

Larry Burden 18:08
That was so cute...

Stephie Luyt 18:09
We sort of have one. I think our TechTool of the Week was to...

Techtool of the Week 18:13
Just follow Colby Sharp. I can't always take a ton of Stephie's time to get good book recommendations. So...

Stephie Luyt 18:20
Yes you can.

Danelle Brostrom 18:20
be, being able to follow someone like Colby Sharp, who is in the classroom with kids. And reads how many books?

Danelle Brostrom 18:27
A thousand books a year. Following someone like him. Because he's always sharing the stuff that's coming out, that's new, and that's really, really good

Stephie Luyt 18:36
Yeah, the book you talked about it Wired just came out. It's called, "Maybe He Just Likes You." And it was the book, I think if I'm remembering how he phrased this, if you're going to read one book this year, that should be it, so.

Larry Burden 18:47
Great follow on Twitter, for sure. Um, I just want to throw it out tutorials and updates. I have to be honest, we have so many pods out there right now. So many podcasts and stuff that's been thrown up on YouTube. I'm not going to hit them all. So I'm just going to say, go to Danelle's YouTube page, go to the TechNollerGist's YouTube page, which just there's so much content there. The TCAPSLoop YouTube Channel has something on it. We did actually put the Evan O'branevic podcast on there, or at least a snippet of it. So, it's alive. "It's Alive! Alive! Closing, follow us on Facebook and Twitter @TCAPSLoop

Danelle Brostrom 19:26
@brostromda

Stephie Luyt 19:27
@StephieLuyt

Larry Burden 19:28
Subscribe to the podcast on podbean, iTunes, Stitcher, Tune-in, downcast, overcast, the Google Play Store or wherever else you get your ear candy. Please leave review. We love the feedback. Thanks for listening and inspiring.

Stephie Luyt 19:43
Okay, well, Are we still being recorded?