Education
It is said that words alone make up about 7% of our communication and the other 93% is made up of our tonality and especially body language. However, in the era of digital technology in general and a period ravaged by the coronavirus pandemic in particular we are seeing a dramatic increase in virtual forms of communication from text messages and stickers to audio and video calls.
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
communication, text, virtual, texting, person, body language, face, people, talking, tonality, energy, meeting, friends, teleportation, arranging, childhood dream, phone call, important, urgent, means
SPEAKERS
Pouya LJ, Dan
Pouya LJ 00:09
Hello ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to yet another episode of beyond the present Podcast. I am as always joined here with Daniel Mulligan How's it going, Dan?
Dan 00:18
Hey, the man buddy glad to be here with you the one and only paychecks to have another let's talk addition another great episode to discuss things that matter and life is of course, great as usual. We are trying our best to go through this situation. Fortunately, things are getting a little bit better in some countries have it worse than some others. So now things are quite fine. I from my point of view in the Middle East, things are also quite fine in Russia. The US is gradually recovering. Unfortunately I heard some bad news about Germany because they had a basically a protest the other day about this all these limitations against the coronavirus pandemic. Some people are saying this whole is just a hoax and all that stuff. And as you probably know, I've moved the headquarters of my European company from Finland Gemini and this was a little bit problematic, because this year, Gemini is going through a lot of changes in terms of perhaps we're gonna have a new election and Merkel is going to leave and somebody else going to come and now there's a virus. So a little bit of problems in the European Union right now. But everywhere else things are quite fine. Zoo usual with all of our plans.
Pouya LJ 01:18
Awesome. Good to hear that. Now, the progression of the Coronavirus is one thing but one thing that it did, it made a lot of real in person physical communication, move to a virtual space such as calls or a loop, right? Yeah. I'm here today we're sitting here to talk about that the difference between these two and the impacts it might have had or keeps having on our communications. So let's listen let's let's dig in. So what is the essence of a virtual virtual communication that is different than a physical communication and in person face to face communication, in your opinion?
Dan 01:58
Very well. So if anybody here Among our listeners, just from NLP or neuro linguistic programming, one of the comments on this field of endeavor is that communication is basically only about three to 5% made of words. It's almost about let's say 25 to 35% in terms of vocal tonality and voice and so on, and the rest of it the majority is actually body language. So, if you look at the indication for you know, from, from these types of words, which is voice and tonality, which is yet small, but important, of course, then just words and then body language as the most important element of communication, you realize that virtual communication especially texting is probably the least effective means of communication. Now, obviously nowadays we have things like stickers. And I don't know emojis and all that. But even those things still not fully help us convey our emotions well in our communication. So, because of this, you can probably guess, as an extrovert that I am how I personally feel about, you know, verbal communication. So I use it just like anybody else. As part of my business communications, I rarely use virtual communication, to I don't know, just to have fun or pass my time because for me, that's just strictly business or to be in touch with friends and basically, in different parts of the world. So if I'm right now sitting in one city, let's just say that right now, I'm in Warsaw, Poland, and I are going to be texting my friends in Poland or in Warsaw, I will be texting my friends in other countries. But if I am in Warsaw, and I want to practice my polish, I am only going to be meeting my friends face to face because I believe that effective communication requires focus and physical presence. That's my personal take on that. Now, of course I do know that there are some people who are not necessarily as extroverted as I am, and they're rather shy. So for these people, obviously, such means of communication, like texting can be very helpful because, you know, somehow protect them from that shyness. But for most of us, I do not see virtual communication, especially via texting and stickers and so on as anything more than just purely business and it's not really efficient. So, personally, I'm not a huge fan, but at the same time, I do know that in the you know, especially in my line of work, which I worked through from all around the world, it is but impossible to rely only on face to face communication, because I mean, the only case that that might be possible, if my childhood dream is realized, and humanity invents teleportation and I was in my childhood dream since a very young age everybody asked like what's like the one superpower you want to have? And it was like all things I want, like freeze time, all those things. That wasn't one thing instant teleportation to any part of the world that was like, you know, my childhood dream. So until and unless I'm I'm telling you right now, by the way, if if Sunday, there is I will perhaps abandon all virtual communication altogether. And I will simply rely on faces condition, all my interactions. But as of today, unless you're living in some fantasy world, there is no such thing as teleportation, which means we need to use and virtual communication to reachable from all parts of the world. And basically to communicate, this also saves a tremendous amount of time, as well as you know, it reduces our carbon footprint to the environment. If you want to always move around with your car or with you know, planes, you generally are gonna increase a lot of basically carbon emission, and that's bad for our planet. But if you look at this issue, at this moment, there is a you know, from my point of view, there's a great plus here for virtual communication and that it saves time and it you know, saves our planet. But other than that, there are so many disadvantages to you know, vertical integration that I personally can actually go In Depth to all of them, but personally, am I a fan of verbal communication? No. Do I use it? Yes, probably more than most people. And do I like it? Probably not. But I have no other choice because we don't have teleportation. Come on guys think of something.
Pouya LJ 06:16
So I was just when you were talking about
Dan 06:20
this job guys like you to make this happen.
Pouya LJ 06:24
Yeah. Well, working on it. No, but when you were talking about teleportation, the first thing that came to my mind was Dan jumping in and out of rooms and it's like, Hey, buddy, I have to go.
Dan 06:37
Of course, in your personal life, too. It's not just always about business. You can also do a lot of stuff with that stuff.
Pouya LJ 06:42
Yeah, the sky's the limit. Right. All right. Okay, so, so let's let's actually do jump into for some of the, I've analyzed the disadvantages one by one, but
Dan 06:53
go further because believe it or not, our listeners might not know this. I actually learned a lot a lot more about these things. And you are one of the I actually got me more hooked with virtual condition of all kinds because I wasn't so much into it, I would actually ask you yourself, which is so how much do you use it? How well to use of course, our listeners know that we have a difference in terms of our temperament. So I'm more extroverted and you're more introverted. So how do you use, you know, this, this form of communication? And how well and how much you actually use it? for what purposes?
Pouya LJ 07:23
Right? Well, I mean, so that's a very good question. But my attitude is slightly different. I do agree with you that nothing beats the physical in person face to face communication when it comes to stuff that actually do matter. By do matter, means I mean, that, you know, they're convoluted and complex enough that you require some degree of, quote unquote codebreaking to understand exactly what that person means. So if I'm having a debate with somebody on it, let's say an important issue, I don't want to do it on a phone call. I want to do it in person, preferably, but if not possible, the next best thing would be a video call. I don't even I don't even engage in such a debate in a voice, you know, stream of communication, which is I think, lacking a lot. However, like I do like it for a lot of scenarios, for example, if I'm scheduling something to for meetup, like the plan is clear what we intend to do, but it's just a timing that we're trying to figure out. I would like to use the text of course, because then that person can take the receive my text, take their time, go on their calendar, whenever they know if it works for them or not, give a give a text back to me and we can get to it can take as long as they can. It needs unless it's an emergency, like a meet up kind of situation in which you pick up the phone and call them and fix it. But my point is, there are scenarios that I think even a text communication can be quite useful or often often is not a communication but just a ping. Just heads up is like oh, I'm ready in five minutes done, you
Dan 09:03
probably the best usage of virtual communication anyways. Right?
Pouya LJ 09:07
Right. Right, exactly. So point being that, like, obviously, there's a lot of good things that come out of it. But if you unilaterally go on a text based communication, then obviously you're missing a lot and the you being the rhetorical unit, I know you don't do that. But, but But yeah, and I agree with you. So I cannot, I don't, I cannot think of a way that we can beat the physical face to face in the same room in the same place. Kinda kind of communication on on more complex topics that perhaps we are trying to convey to one another.
Dan 09:42
Absolutely, absolutely true. It makes sense.
Pouya LJ 09:45
Yeah. Now let's actually go into deep and say why this is actually what what what are we exactly missing? So obviously, there are layers. So we can go one by one or you can jump between them doesn't matter really. But obviously there's there's a physical thing in the same room, let's say Place, there's a video of the the video format of a video conference or video call, then we have the voice. And then we have the text combined with emojis or without emojis, what have you. Okay, so so let's go obviously physical things has a lot that is missing in a video format Can Can you can go deeper into what is missing exactly between those two.
Dan 10:24
So first of all, let's compare them in details we have facing this indication. Now it was once talking about this issue with one of our basically seminar attendance and I asked him So guys, do you feel right now there's a lot of you guys basically here and sitting here and next to each other and you feel the energy, right? And one of my basically seminar attendance was also a great friend of mine. He said, Listen, Dan, I think it's because of the soul of these people. So our souls come to one another and we create that energy or vibe. I don't know about that because science still has not proven the existence of solar. Spirit. However, we all know that once we are in the physical presence of other people, it always feels different. This could be the vibration they emit from the surface of their skins, as we know that in quantum physics, that everything is vibrating, and there's an energy level involved. So when you're talking to a real human being face to face, whether you call it spirit, or whether you call it the quantum vibrations of their, let's say, body or their energy level, or simply their heat and the temperature, they generate through, you know, their body temperature, whatever it is, there's always bigger impact in terms of what they do to you and how you feel. Other than that, it's about communication itself. So as mentioned, the biggest aspect of communication is your body language. Imagine I'm smiling first right now because we have a podcast that's nearly audio. Imagine I'm smiling, and I tell you like, oh, man, come on. Now. Compare that With someone changing his facial expression and tonality and say, Hey, come on, these two imply very different meaning. I can say, you idiot with a very aggressive, for example, tone, I can say, you idiot. These are very, very different meanings, right? So, because of the fact that body language conveys the majority of the meaning of interaction, because let's be honest, when you're talking to somebody else, most of what you are perceiving of that interaction is the body language. This is how the brain is wired, basically. And if you're saying things, are those things sincere or not, so for example, let's say you text your buddy or your girlfriend or your boyfriend in the morning, and what's up, she texts back. I'm doing fine, smiley smiley. But let's say you saw her in the same room The next morning and say, What's up, she says, another Monday. She Yeah.
Pouya LJ 13:01
So
Dan 13:02
you will perceive of these two communications the same even though they have the same verbal context, I'm doing fine. Which is why face to face communication, first of all conveys more information about the person allows us to understand whether the other person is being sincere and telling exactly how he or she feels. For example, lie detection itself worse only in person, you cannot, you know, use lie detection solely by texts unless you're making some very serious mistakes, right? Where they are saying things that are very contradictory. But in reality, you can understand people better face to face, you know how you're feeling, you understand whether what they're saying is like a let's say, sarcastic comment. It's an aggressive comment, you feel it, all of those, and you take it in, on a subconscious level. And by the way, you don't have to be a trained body language expert to understand most of these. Now it is true that if you have deep you know, studies and body language, you can do a lot of cool things like knowing for example with a person's language, not by opportunity. 95% accuracy, whether the person is sincere or not, whether what he or she says, will actually be done. These are all the things you can learn through additional study of body language, it can make you do some crazy stuff that seems like magic, but it actually can be done with body language. But even if you have no concept of what even what the word body language means, you can still by nature, the way we are our brains wired, we can understand other people's feelings and emotions. And because of this, we are missing out on all of these things when we rely on virtual communication. However, in virtual communication, we also have video calls, which is probably the best form of basically, virtual communication because in that case, you have what you know what they're saying. That is the words they're using. You hear their tonality, and you see their faces, but still, since it's not exactly 3d, it is it doesn't carry the same weight. It's the closest thing that comes to face miscommunication, but it's not the same actually. And if you add up On top of that, you know the connection problems. And let's say that light in the room and all those things, you will have even more problems. But overall, as I mentioned earlier, you can always improve the quality of our, let's say virtual communication if we try to model it after real face to face communication. So I mentioned earlier about emojis, that's a great inclusion, and will allow us to kind of get Is there like a sarcasm? Or is it real? So these are the things that can actually add up. But in the end, as I mentioned earlier, the major absence of body language, as well as tonality makes most text based syndications from my point of view, not efficient at all, and probably close to three or 4%. Effective.
Pouya LJ 15:43
Yeah, no, that that makes a lot of sense. Because as social animals, we're biologically wired to, you know, understand a lot of these things even though sometimes we don't know what we're understanding, really, oh, how are we doing it? Actually, there's a good book. I mean, not exactly on this, but talks about this blink by Malcolm Gladwell, which does talk about this a little bit if people are interested to read more, they're welcome Of course. Yeah. So I mean, especially the tech specs, or text based communication is too far from the physical one. Now when we got a voice as you mentioned for example, you were reading that sentence I forgot what the exact wording was. But no, you can you can imagine it with every kind of sentence What the hell are you doing? Or Oh, you said you idiot. Yeah, it could we could when you introduce it tonality becomes different. Now there's all from obviously, and the subtle subtle little ones which becomes more obvious when you see people now with the role of an eye for instance, now that you can again, get in a video setting, even body language to extent if the entire body is visible into camera, you can get Can you can you can you explain like in a little bit of a detail, maybe maybe that's the energy thing. That you talk about, but what is it exactly that we don't get beyond the video compared to physical?
Dan 17:06
Well, what you mentioned about energy. First of all, I believe in that energy part because that is actually proven by science. You're I mean, you probably know far more about this than I knew, basically. And it's called quantum physics. So basically, all living organisms are basically generating heat and energy is just quite normal, which is why we need to, you know, things like food and rest to be able to keep expanding, we lose cells and burn and burn energy to, you know, build new cells. So that energy asked me what I think it's very important. So real people, they are emitting energy. Now some get spiritual call of things like aura or spiritual energy. Maybe that's the case. I'm neither gonna basically confirm nor deny because in this regard, I will remain nearly agnostic, because science cannot prove it, but at the same time, science cannot disprove it. So I will not comment on that. But science has already proven that there is this thing called vibrations of basically organisms and the energy they emit. So that's one thing. The other factor is being with other people, you're not just seeing them, you are also smelling them even at a very deep, subconscious level. You see, everyone carries with themselves a smell. Now that smell could be very pleasant, like Anna, let's say and very nice odor they've added can be very unpleasant as you probably know, a few a few hours. If you're someone like me, who goes to gym frequently, and happens to be this god awful place called the locker room. And you probably know what, what I'm talking about. So people are also, you know, emitting a lot of smell. And when it comes to the cases, like, basically meeting or funding your partner has actually proven basically that people tend to release basically based upon their hormonal status, they send different smelling signals, that implies whether or not they are open for me. So believe it or not, maybe you're out there talking to someone and you suddenly feel a sense Of Attraction without knowing why you like that man or woman? And the answer is pheromones. So pheromones are now it's not just for humans it exists on all basically living organisms. So the pheromones exist only in face to face communication which is why I'm so against Tinder. Gosh, and I hate this but even more popular these days, just such a such a terrible way to meet someone. So pheromones are like this. So you tend to admit that smell to attract mates basically and all that stuff? Obviously, it's about the way you dress so as you probably have seen, there's a lot of you know, memes and jokes about this. People dressing top up very professionally while they're wearing their underwears below as they're looking at, you know, the laptop so that's like a new thing. And especially working remotely due to the coronavirus pandemic has made this even more popular people dressing all nice, they got the suit on on top and they're wearing their you know, mommy's underpants basically right there. So it's like a kind of like not the same thing. And more importantly, in person, you probably get the chance Yesterday will be called touch or because as you as you know, in NLP, we say we have five major senses. And all that we are is the result of those five senses. And one of those critical senses is actually the sense of touch. Things like a handshake things like a hug, things like, I don't know, tapping their shoulders or holding them or all of these things. These are going to also add a lot of meaning and emotional components to our communication that simply are not present in virtual communication, basically. So when you add these things together, plus that energy level, then you realize why it is a lot more efficient to perhaps communicate using body language and face to face then using the internet and virtually
Pouya LJ 20:40
not. So that's amazing now, now the natural question is okay, we try. We tried to do a lot of it in person as much as necessary. But obviously we're in it, especially now in time we're in a circumstance not just because of the enablers of the technology, but actually because of the circumstance. A lot of things are being done. Without the physical presence, like people are working remotely and having their meeting and what have you, or even texting each other for First off, I mean, one good example of a potential solution to use these visual visual forms of communication, but still convey the most that you want was to include emojis, for example, and text. That's a great example. Now, are there things that you can advise? On the for example, well, even text again, but voice and video specifically to convey your messaging better? as a as a messenger not receive? Of course? Yeah,
Dan 21:34
of course. Well, I think in this regard, you're definitely more experienced than I am because most of my virtual communication is strictly limited to business. I tend to avoid basically, communications that are on a personal friendly or romantic level via text or calls or these things because I'm a firm believer, especially when it comes to important emotional relationships. Let's say with your parents, let's say with your partner with your children. really believe that, for example, having these types of indications of via virtual, you know, virtually via text or these things, it's a lot easier but efficient, very inefficient. So most of my virtual communication usually occurs in my personal professional life has been avoided in my personal life as much as possible. So when it comes to professional, basically life, however, I really like to emphasize on being quite clear in your text, because one of the biggest issues of texting is that there are two major problems. Number one is that you might not imply what you're reading me. And number two is that time distance. So for example, if I'm talking to you right now, Face Face to face, and I'm saying like, so what do you think? And then you look at my eyes, looking at different distance, direction, and don't talk to me at all. In a real physics application. What do we assume here projects
Pouya LJ 22:56
was kind of insulting is to
Dan 22:58
you know, say not insulted. You feel like Excuse me, I'm talking to you, dude. Right? So you feel or if you don't feel insulted, you might feel like, what happened to me is he is he depressed? So this brings about basically, you know, some weird things. And we are, by the way, evolutionary wired this way. So because we did not have virtual communication that on a massive scale for about let's see, I don't know, for the past, we only had it for the past, let's say 1020 years. Now, of course, we had telephone before that. But even that was like, even if this whole thing begins with the telephone, which is, I don't know, about 100 years old or something that is still a very a tiny fraction of our evolutionary history. So that was more like, I don't know, perhaps, if our all of our evolutionary background was 24 hours, the invention of virtual communication, including Telegraph's and so on, is probably less than 1% of that 24 hours. So imagine, like, we are not wired emotionally for that kind of indication. So if I'm talking to you right now, and you're looking at this and you feel like Dude, this guy doesn't respect me or something like this, but in virtual communication, I mean, you can Do this, because maybe the person that you're texting, he's, I'm sorry, he's maybe he's using the bathroom, maybe it's an important meeting. Maybe he's trying to make love to his partner, maybe there's something going on. Maybe he's really is depressed and doesn't even want to meet. Because if you are really down and depressed, let's say, I don't know somebody is depressed or to have a health problem, you're not going to go out to meet your friend, but anyone can reach you. 24 seven, I was talking to a friend of mine, and she was a lady. And she really felt like I'm feeling a sense of April. I feel like very down and sad. So that person, if you text him or her, she's not going to respond to it because you're here she is feeling down. But in a real communications that will never happen because you will not meet her in the first place. Right? So because of all these challenges that you know the if you're occurs over distance, there comes a series of issues. Number one, the timing of the response. Someone might not respond to our texts for two days. And we assume, oh, this guy doesn't respect me. But in fact, the person is Perhaps really busy, or maybe in a bad mood, or you don't know what's going on, or maybe simply he did not even, he forgot to respond or you want to send a text or there was a connection. So all of these issues and get in the way, which is why I would like to create, basically, and I like to, you know, create a rule for texting that I personally use all the time. And my rule is very simple. I send a text to someone. And when I send a text to someone that I, you know, no, I expect a response. It's very normal. Everybody does that. Now the person might not respond to it. This means perhaps the person is not available or is not willing. Either way. I wait. Because, you know, we're not there. I'm not waiting for that person. Maybe he or she's in the middle of something important. Maybe he or she is not there. So I wait. And if I realize that waiting did not change and I have not so got my response. I'm not going to send the second or third message. Instead, I will simply make a phone call. Why? Because when you make a phone call it implies I we're discussing something urgent and important right? requires your attention. But when you're sending a text by its very nature text, which is what we call a low investment, social activity. So if I'm sending a text to you, it means what I'm saying is not urgent, and could be responded at any moment. That's what I assume basically, right? So, in all my business interactions, if I'm sending an email or a text, I not expecting an urgent response. If I do, especially in the case of email, I would instead prefer to make a phone call. Now if a phone call is for whatever reason not possible, I simply add over the text or email. Your fast response will be appreciate I usually answered about in my email, over text, I wouldn't do this because text by its very nature is what we call an on urgent form of communication. So I do not expect my texts to be respond too quickly because if I want a response quickly, I will make a phone call instead, for whatever but let's say I want to talk to my supplier and say I want to talk to my For example, security, but whatever it is, if it's urgent, I have to make a basically phone call instead. So anybody who's using texts from my point of view, they should use the same strategy. If you want to say something, something is very important and urgent, you should not use texting because texting is merely a text. It lacks vocal tonality. It lacks body language. And in many cases, even though it lacks Smiley's, especially in case of physical location. So, it almost implies that I'm just another text like all the other text, so you should not necessarily expect to respond quickly. And generally speaking, I also believe we should follow the pattern of the person. So if I sent a text right now, and the person responds after 20 minutes, that implies he or she might be very busy. But if he or she responds immediately, that means that he or she is available. So in that case, again, if finally the person is immediately available, I'm not going to keep texting, I'll just call the person. It's like, Oh, this guy's actually available. Let's call wine. I will use every opportunity Just stop texting and start calling speaking video calling because I want my communication to be as close to the physical limitation as possible. Because texting is a perverted version of communication, it's not the
28:14
field and the
Dan 28:17
and for that reason, if anything, if you're if you are upset about something you should not expect over text you should call the person if you want to clear something that has not clarified yet, you should call or you should have a video call for all these important issues, I recommend using video and voice voice calls and not text and I like to use text for things of that are either extremely the now like See you at this time or beer at this time or I will see you in front of this place like these you know, been there done that kind of stuff very simple telecommunication command based or for things that are not very urgent. Like if I really want to say like oh man, check this out very nice. This This does not require an immediate response right. So for that reason Save texting for things that are neither urgent nor very important. And the more important and the more urgent the text or communication is, I actually converted text to a phone call or a video call. And ideally, I don't do any of those. I just arrange a meeting if I'm in the same city, I will do all face to face.
Pouya LJ 29:17
Yeah, that's perfect. No, that's good. I think we covered a lot. Obviously, this topic is on exhaustible, you can keep going, so you have to come to a national halt. And that is, I think, a good place to do that unless you want to add something up or do a summary of what we talked about.
Dan 29:33
That's right, very well. So we had a great time. Today, of course, we discussed the issue of virtual communication. Now, as you probably know, I am a critic of virtual communication. I'm not a huge fan of it. And I explained all the reasons why and mainly is because first communication is not as efficient as actual face to face communication. However, there's a huge advantage to virtual mediation, that's there are no limits on with whom you can speak, when you can speak and wherever that person might be. Right Because the internet and communication were This is called communication at the speed of light. So we have no limitations in this regard. However, that lack of limitations also creates its own set of problems, which we addressed in terms of knowing how to respond and how to text someone. And more importantly, we emphasize the importance of trying to make our virtual communication as close to the real version as possible by including things like video calls, where we can actually see the person using our tonality. And, you know, we have voice calls and trying to use texts, not as a means of, you know, entertaining or just wasting your time, nor just trying to express the most important deepest thoughts. I mean, one of my friends said, like, I truly want to express to my partner how much I love her. I don't know how to write it on text. I said, Dude, don't text her. Just go tell her face to face, or even some people actually break up over text. It's just, it just boggles my mind. Unbelievable. So you want to use text as a means of reaching the person. And this is one of the things I learned from one of my friends. Basically. And he said, use text as nothing but a means of arranging a meeting. This is one of my friends who said that actually, and he's a great, you know, Jewish gentleman that I like and I learned a lot from. So he said, like, don't use texts for anything other than arranging meetings. Now, that meeting could be, let's say, a virtual meeting via Skype, or zoom, or, let's say messengers, or it could be a person, ideally, a face to face meeting, but ultimately, save texting, at least from my point of view, mainly for arranging real meetups. However, when it comes to these arrangements, these texts are very efficient. Are you available? Yes, I am, here and here at that time, let's see each other. So for that reason, I'm a huge proponent of not relying on texting as a means of communicating, but using text to arrange virtual meetings via zoom. You're saying like, but I don't want to do businessman I want to talk to my friend. Okay. You can text your friend or you can say you know, they Call your friends. Which one is going to be doing more effective? The answer is obvious video calls. So why don't you use text to arrange a video call instead of just texting to see how you're doing. That'll be a lot more efficient if you actually see him, talk to him and so on. So for that reason, that's how I personally like to use text as a means of arranging either a virtual or a face to face meeting
Pouya LJ 32:21
was amazing. All right. With that we're coming to the end of the show. Thank you as always, Dan.
Dan 32:27
It's my pleasure, buddy. Glad to be here with the one and only Pouyjix
Pouya LJ 32:30
Thank you. And thank you everybody for tuning in. And I hope you enjoyed this episode. I did for sure. And please, leave us comments. Let us know what you want us to talk about. And please, if you have time, then if you enjoyed the show, go rate it commented, let it grow. We would appreciate it and until a later episode. Have a good one.
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